Coming into this season I expected Josh Beckett to finish w/ the following numbers: 16-9 3.90 ERA 170 K's 210 INN (assuming he stayed healthy). He's been straight up awful.

I still support the Sox-Marlins trade 100%.

 

Glad to see The Burner/FeLo/Junior has continued his anti-Beckett campaign. :thumbup

 

It's nice to know that some Red Sox fans actually have that kind of tolerance. :plain

I still support the Sox-Marlins trade 100%.

 

Glad to see The Burner/FeLo/Junior has continued his anti-Beckett campaign. :thumbup

 

What exactly was the trade?

 

Maybe you'd take it because you got Lowell, but since April 20th Josh Beckett has been the worst starting pitcher in all of baseball.

We traded Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Jesus Delgado for Beckett and Mike Lowell. Hanley had Pedroia over him in the organization and while Anibal is a good prospet he was worth getting an upgrade over Bill Mueller and giving the team the ability to move Youkilis over to first and not have J.T Snow on the team. Trade made sense for both teams and I'm glad he did it.

 

That last line I lol'd at, please back it up with stats. Thanks in advance. I don't know what you jihad against Beckett is but it's somewhat ammusing to me. It's as if your mom had been meeting up with him in dirty motel rooms at night for the past year, I don't get what your deal with him is. I actually expect Beckett to put up a few more decent starts to end the year, ERA will go to around 4.8ish and I expect him to improve next year with this season behind him and having gone through the league already. We got him to perform this year, of course, but the trade wasn't for a one shot at glory and then to let him go.

 

He straight up owned up to his shittyness in the post game. He didn't bulls***, he called his stubborness out. I fully expect him to come back down to his norm then keep on this path, I'm sure most of the 'haters' (2003, wha?) will disagree but that's fine and as of right now you have a 100% right to think that way.

We traded Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Jesus Delgado for Beckett and Mike Lowell. Hanley had Pedroria over him in the organization and while Anibal is a good prospet he was worth getting an upgrade over Bill Mueller and giving the team the ability to move Youkilis over to first and not have J.T Snow on the team. Trade made sense for both teams and I'm glad he did it.

 

That last line I lol'd at, please back it up with stats. Thanks in advance. I don't know what you jihad against Beckett is but it's somewhat ammusing to me. It's as if your mom had been meeting up with him in dirty motel rooms at night for the past year, I don't get what your deal with him is. I actually expect Beckett to put up a few more decent starts to end the year, ERA will go to around 4.8ish and I expect him to improve next year with this season behind him and having gone through the league already. We got him to perform this year, of course, but the trade wasn't for a one shot at glory and then to let him go.

 

 

 

I disagree....Hanley is and was always better than Pedroria otherwise the Marlins would have gotten him.

 

There is no evidence Beckett's ERA will go down anytime soon....he has been one of the most inconsisant pitchers in all of baseball and gives up too many homers (flat fastballs). I'll take Hanley and Sanchez in the longrun over Beckett in the long run anyday.

Maybe Josh should be calling some of his old pitching coaches for advice. I think he definitely has the talent and neither Al Nipper, Dave Wallace nor his mentor, Schilling, seem to be able to help. He says himself he believes the problem is a combination of mechanics and stubborness (Beckett has always been pretty honest as far as that goes). Fix the mechanics and the stubborness issue might follow.

I disagree....Hanley is and was always better than Pedroria otherwise the Marlins would have gotten him.

:lol :lol :lol

 

2005 AA Stats:

 

Ramirez

.271/.335/.385/.720

38 BB to 62 SO ~ 0.61 BB to K

6 HR in 456 AB

 

Pedroia

.324/.409/.508/.917

34 BB to 26 SO ~ 1.30 BB to K

8 HR in 256 AB

 

Pedroia easily moved past Hanley as the Red Sox best IF prospect in 2005 and was moved up to AAA that year. He has vastly superior plate discipline and is one of the minor league's best defenders.

We traded Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, and Jesus Delgado for Beckett and Mike Lowell. Hanley had Pedroria over him in the organization and while Anibal is a good prospet he was worth getting an upgrade over Bill Mueller and giving the team the ability to move Youkilis over to first and not have J.T Snow on the team. Trade made sense for both teams and I'm glad he did it.

 

That last line I lol'd at, please back it up with stats. Thanks in advance. I don't know what you jihad against Beckett is but it's somewhat ammusing to me. It's as if your mom had been meeting up with him in dirty motel rooms at night for the past year, I don't get what your deal with him is. I actually expect Beckett to put up a few more decent starts to end the year, ERA will go to around 4.8ish and I expect him to improve next year with this season behind him and having gone through the league already. We got him to perform this year, of course, but the trade wasn't for a one shot at glory and then to let him go.

 

He straight up owned up to his shittyness in the post game. He didn't bulls***, he called his stubborness out. I fully expect him to come back down to his norm then keep on this path, I'm sure most of the 'haters' (2003, wha?) will disagree but that's fine and as of right now you have a 100% right to think that way.

 

I read an article on it the other day. Since April 20th, he has the highest ERA among starting pitchers with a certain number of starts. I'll try to find it.

I disagree....Hanley is and was always better than Pedroria otherwise the Marlins would have gotten him.

:lol :lol :lol

 

2005 AA Stats:

 

Ramirez

.271/.335/.385/.720

38 BB to 62 SO ~ 0.61 BB to K

6 HR in 456 AB

 

Pedroia

.324/.409/.508/.917

34 BB to 26 SO ~ 1.30 BB to K

8 HR in 256 AB

 

Pedroia easily moved past Hanley as the Red Sox best IF prospect in 2005 and was moved up to AAA that year. He has vastly superior plate discipline and is one of the minor league's best defenders.

What are Pedroia's ML stats for this season, i can't seem to find them

This year's stats:

 

Ramirez - MLB

470 ABs

46 BB

11 HR

39 SB

.337 OBP

.417 SLG

 

Pedroia - AAA

421 ABs

48 BB

5 HR

1 SB

.386 OBP

.428 SLG

 

Now Hanley has K'd far more than Pedroia this year, though I thought this was probably less relevant. The discrepancy in walks is not obsurd, Hanley has hit for similar power at a much higher level in a pitchers ballpark. I would say that against MLB pitching Pedroia would not have out performed Hanley, and lets not even mention the difference in baserunning. I will admit Pedroia has hit for a better average but again this is at AAA. Draw your own conclusions...

If there was one must-win do-or-die game, then I would take Beckett over pretty much anyone.

 

But during the long marathon that is the baseball regular season, no thanks.

This year's stats:

 

Ramirez - MLB

470 ABs

46 BB

11 HR

39 SB

.337 OBP

.417 SLG

 

Pedroia - AAA

421 ABs

48 BB

5 HR

1 SB

.386 OBP

.428 SLG

 

Now Hanley has K'd far more than Pedroia this year, though I thought this was probably less relevant. The discrepancy in walks is not obsurd, Hanley has hit for similar power at a much higher level in a pitchers ballpark. Now I'm not sure, but isn't Pawtucket the same layout as Fenway with its own green monster? A double making machine. I would say that against MLB pitching Pedroia would not have out performed Hanley, and lets not even mention the difference in baserunning. I will admit Pedroia has hit for a better average but again this is at AAA. Draw your own conclusions...

 

I don't think it's pertinent to compare a player at AAA with one in the majors and that is why I compared the two when they played at the same level, at the same time to illustrate why Pedroia surpassed Ramirez in the Sox system and became the untouchable IF while Hanley became expendable.

 

For the way Theo wants to build his team, a guy with a good if not great handle on the strikezone is absolutely huge in evaluating talent and Pedroia is without a doubt a better option than Hanley in that regard and using your numbers from this year that you liked to compare to major league figures (?), Pedroia has a 48 BB to 27 SO ~ 1.77 BB to K which is higher than his AA numbers which has improved at every level of the minor leagues.

 

I don't know how you can say that Pedroia couldn't have outperformed Hanely this year considering Pedroia had better minor league success and would have been hitting in front of David Ortiz all year. What are you basing that on, the fact that one is in the majors and the other is in AAA? It's a different situation.

 

BTW, McCoy stadium does not have a layout similar to Fenway's and has cookie cutter dimensions of 325-375-400-375-325 with no Green Monster.

I think this year's figures are just as pertinent as last year's figures. If Theo wishes to build a team around OBP and strikezone judgement then clearly Pedroia is the player for him, however I don't feel that makes him the better prospect. The variation in emphasis on tools between the AL and NL is amplified when comparing the two prospects is amplified; for an AL team OBP and moneyball stats the more important factor, with speed being less important.

 

I did not even mention the difference in projectibility of the two players, one is 5' 9" with average speed and power the other 6' 3" with outstanding speed and emerging power.

 

I know you like to see things through red tinted glasses, however I think the Marlins got the better player for their needs. You like to think the Red Sox held onto the correct player for their needs, which I think they may have, however as I said above it does not make him the better prospect or player overall, now or in the long run.

Today's Line vs. Yankees:

5.2 IP, 7 H, 9 ER, 9 BB

 

Season ERA:

5.35

 

Wow.

Yuo forgot to Highlight the even more shocking part, the BB's

I think this year's figures are just as pertinent as last year's figures. If Theo wishes to build a team around OBP and strikezone judgement then clearly Pedroia is the player for him, however I don't feel that makes him the better prospect. The variation in emphasis on tools between the AL and NL is amplified when comparing the two prospects is amplified; for an AL team OBP and moneyball stats the more important factor, with speed being less important.

 

I did not even mention the difference in projectibility of the two players, one is 5' 9" with average speed and power the other 6' 3" with outstanding speed and emerging power.

 

I know you like to see things through red tinted glasses, however I think the Marlins got the better player for their needs. You like to think the Red Sox held onto the correct player for their needs, which I think they may have, however as I said above it does not make him the better prospect or player overall, now or in the long run.

Awesome, discount my points because I 'see things through red tinted glasses'. My whole point, which you have dilluted and twisted to be that Hanley Ramirez is better (mostly based on the fact that one is in the majors) is that Pedroia did pass Ramirez in the Red Sox organization. I never argued who got the better player (I still say Pedroia projects better on both sides of the ball), but the notion that Hanley is and always was better then Pedroia is puzzling considering Pedroia out performed him at each level and did in fact pass Ramirez in the Red Sox system. I usually don't value my team's prospects based on how projectable and how they will perform for other teams but for the Red Sox Pedroia was the better player, I don't know how you can discount that.

 

Base stealing skills are about as useful to the Red Sox as a player being able to do a great Mick Jagger impression, in other words, not very important.

 

I didn't know stats have a Red Sox bias, but to you I guess they do. Lame way to have a discussion with crap like that. I hate that cold hard facts don't get responded to and then the poster's argument gets tossed out because of who they root for.

 

Someone who I don't think has a Red Sox bias, or he may to you because he doesn't agree with you is Nate Silver at Baseball Prospectus. In his pre-season top 50 prospects listing, he put Pedroia 11th in all of baseball, perhaps that adds some more validity to my point that Pedroia did in fact pass Ramirez? (L)

 

Pedroia out performed Delmon Young in terms of EQA in 2005 at AAA and he was bothered by a wrist injury. Pedroia's PECOTA rating coming into this year boosted him from that #11 ranking to #4.....in all of baseball. He has only improved his numbers, stike zone recognition, and versatility (has played 2B, SS, and 3B this season) with another year in AAA and barring some catastrophic injury, will be in the majors starting full time in 2007.

 

But yeah, lets forget all of this it's just a 'bias' I have.

If there was one must-win do-or-die game, then I would take Beckett over pretty much anyone.

 

But during the long marathon that is the baseball regular season, no thanks.

 

 

His start against the Yanks was pretty much must-win do-or-die.

If there was one must-win do-or-die game, then I would take Beckett over pretty much anyone.

 

But during the long marathon that is the baseball regular season, no thanks.

 

 

His start against the Yanks was pretty much must-win do-or-die.

No it wasn't. There are 40 games back. As sh*tty as the Sox have played in August and in this series they could conciveably win today and tommorrow and only lost 1 game in the division race and in a best case scenario be 1.5 out of the Wild Card.

Beckett will be fine. I was at his first MLB game ever, seen him live probably 30 + times, and watched 90 % of the rest of his games on tv. The guy has dominating stuff. Stuff maybe only 4-5 major league pitchers can equal. The HR ball is killing him right now. I think his problem is more a product of poor pitch selection from his catcher than what he is throwing. He will fine. I'd take him in a heartbeat over Dontrelle, Burnett, and even Penny.

 

 

The Pedroia vs. Hanley argument as a prospect is laughable BTW. Prospects are graded more so on projectibility than numbers. I think most would agree with that. Hanley was always projected to be a guy in the bigs who could hit .300 , steal 50 bases and hit 25 + HRs with tons of range and great defense at SS.

 

Pedroia at his absolute best in the majors will put up the same numbers he is putting up right now in AAA, not bad, but nowhere near Hanley's potential. Realistically though I see Pedroia as a .275-.280 hitter with a .350 OBP+ and no power. A super utility guy.

I think this year's figures are just as pertinent as last year's figures. If Theo wishes to build a team around OBP and strikezone judgement then clearly Pedroia is the player for him, however I don't feel that makes him the better prospect. The variation in emphasis on tools between the AL and NL is amplified when comparing the two prospects is amplified; for an AL team OBP and moneyball stats the more important factor, with speed being less important.

 

I did not even mention the difference in projectibility of the two players, one is 5' 9" with average speed and power the other 6' 3" with outstanding speed and emerging power.

 

I know you like to see things through red tinted glasses, however I think the Marlins got the better player for their needs. You like to think the Red Sox held onto the correct player for their needs, which I think they may have, however as I said above it does not make him the better prospect or player overall, now or in the long run.

Awesome, discount my points because I 'see things through red tinted glasses'. My whole point, which you have dilluted and twisted to be that Hanley Ramirez is better (mostly based on the fact that one is in the majors) is that Pedroia did pass Ramirez in the Red Sox organization. I never argued who got the better player (I still say Pedroia projects better on both sides of the ball), but the notion that Hanley is and always was better then Pedroia is puzzling considering Pedroia out performed him at each level and did in fact pass Ramirez in the Red Sox system. I usually don't value my team's prospects based on how projectable and how they will perform for other teams but for the Red Sox Pedroia was the better player, I don't know how you can discount that.

 

Base stealing skills are about as useful to the Red Sox as a player being able to do a great Mick Jagger impression, in other words, not very important.

 

I didn't know stats have a Red Sox bias, but to you I guess they do. Lame way to have a discussion with crap like that. I hate that cold hard facts don't get responded to and then the poster's argument gets tossed out because of who they root for.

 

Someone who I don't think has a Red Sox bias, or he may to you because he doesn't agree with you is Nate Silver at Baseball Prospectus. In his pre-season top 50 prospects listing, he put Pedroia 11th in all of baseball, perhaps that adds some more validity to my point that Pedroia did in fact pass Ramirez? (L)

 

Pedroia out performed Delmon Young in terms of EQA in 2005 at AAA and he was bothered by a wrist injury. Pedroia's PECOTA rating coming into this year boosted him from that #11 ranking to #4.....in all of baseball. He has only improved his numbers, stike zone recognition, and versatility (has played 2B, SS, and 3B this season) with another year in AAA and barring some catastrophic injury, will be in the majors starting full time in 2007.

 

But yeah, lets forget all of this it's just a 'bias' I have.

I was not trying to imply you were biased, and I said I thought the Red Sox had held onto the player that they would most benefit from. Hence my comment about looking through red tinted glasses; of course you should look through red tinted glasses, just as we all look at the Marlins' system through teal tinted glasses, and rightly so as they play in the NL in a pitchers ballpark and not Fenway.

 

My comment was not about basestealing skills rather baserunning, going 1st to 3rd, tagging up, things that are important to all teams including the Sox.

 

Also your comment that stats do not have bias with a team, of course they do, the AL and NL do value stats differently as you well know.

 

I understood your point that you thought that Pedroia had moved past Hanley in the Red Sox system, but I don't think he ever truely did. In my opinion they held onto the wrong player, Hanley is the more projectable player, with the bigger upside long term. Clearly, the Red Sox place more emphasis on OBP, which I feel can be over relied upon at times.

He's not pitching well, not by any standard of his.

 

BUT

 

His WHIP is significantly lower than Dontrelle's and this is pitching in arguably the weakest division in baseball (one good team, one decent one-Phillies, and three weak ones-Marlins, Braves, Nats).

 

If the Red Sox came back to us with Beckett, with his contract now, and offered a do-over, I'd have a hard time saying no...

Pitch selection is killing Josh. His pitches are actually pretty predictable. I called his pitches ahead of time and was right 90 percent of the time. That pitch he threw to A-Rod with the bases loaded was totally predictable... a two-seamer on the inside part of the plate. A-Rod didn't hit it particularly well, but he got around on it enough to get a hit. Josh had A-Rod 0-2 or 1-2 and had just thrown him a couple of fastballs... he needed to throw a hard curveball. Big Leaguers are good enough to hit the best stuff if they know what's coming...

 

Whoever catches Josh (whether it is Varitek, Lopez, or Maribelli) does a horrible job of pitch selection. Not to mention the fact that his delivery is different than it was last year.

 

I like Josh. Red Sox Catchers: please stop calling predictable pitches. Red Sox pitching coach: please stop f***ing with Josh's delivery and get him back to the mechanics he had in FL.

The Pedroia vs. Hanley argument as a prospect is laughable BTW. Prospects are graded more so on projectibility than numbers. I think most would agree with that. Hanley was always projected to be a guy in the bigs who could hit .300 , steal 50 bases and hit 25 + HRs with tons of range and great defense at SS.

 

Pedroia at his absolute best in the majors will put up the same numbers he is putting up right now in AAA, not bad, but nowhere near Hanley's potential. Realistically though I see Pedroia as a .275-.280 hitter with a .350 OBP+ and no power. A super utility guy.

 

 

:thumbup