Before I left for the game, and wasn't that a great night (!!!), while I haven't found the interview I alluded to yet, I have found a great abstract on the IRS regulations governing just this subject and a look inside a major league team's finances which was filed with the SEC.

 

If y'all don't mind I'll enjoy the evening and get the stuff posted in the morning. I think people will find it about as definitive as it gets, is not gong to be controversial at all and for those who think the Forbes numbers are right on, you'll be surprised at the results. But honestly I just can't stay up until 2 am organizing this stuff.

 

Stay tuned.

 

How about you just post the article in question instead of dancing around it?

 

I'd like to hear it from ZIMBALIST's mouth. As you alleged before.

Swift, maybe you have a reading comprehension problem I think I just said I hadn't tracked it down yet.

 

I had a great time and I imagine you did too, I'm sorry but I'm not spending the rest of the night trying to find a needle in a haystack at 11 o'clock at night.

Marlins2003 that was too overlydramatic of a posting for my taste! The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as much as you would love to defend Loria just tell us where he is investing on the team besides standard operations costs. The payroll has not been enhanced nor has scouting or development costs, The budget is already established without the Revenue sharing funds, where does that money go to? Let me know when you find out I am curious to know

We could speculate that the team is recovering losses from previous years, paying dividends to owners and paying for more and more professional services as well as ever-expanding expenses related to marketing, minor league operations, scouting, front office and support staff, equipment, traveling and facility upkeep. The only accounts you can speculate to have decreased are the ones we fans are already familiar with: gate receipts and MLB payroll.

Swift, maybe you have a reading comprehension problem I think I just said I hadn't tracked it down yet.

 

I had a great time and I imagine you did too, I'm sorry but I'm not spending the rest of the night trying to find a needle in a haystack at 11 o'clock at night.

 

Weren't you the one trumpeting your own success in finding a wonderful, 'definitive,' piece on this practice in question?

 

Yet again, here we are. I ask for substantiation. I have met the burden of proof. You have yet to do anything save throw large assumptions as fact without so much as practicing the wonderful fact checking you preach.

 

You based a great deal of your (and I use this tongue-firmly-in-cheek because it was just so cute) Shakespearian efforts to denigrate two viewpoints (two viewpoints, who I might add have cited copious more sources to this point then you have) and yet, when it came time to present facts, you slunk away ever so cowardly.

 

I anxiously await your presentation of Andrew Zimbalist's thoughts regarding MLB book-keeping, as I have already presented mine which stand in DIRECT contradiction to what you allege.

Maybe we are judging too hard, but there is one undeniable fact -- who is the common element in both the Montreal fiasco & the Marlins fiasco ?

It's not who, it's what.

Loria isn't the problem with the Marlins, nor is it Huizenga, it's a combination of whats and we, as fans, form a couple of them. The same formula existed in Montreal. Hopefully we'll avoid their fate.

 

You forgot to add the lies told to us by John Henry. But I would have to say more than it being Loria and Company's fault it would have to be a combination of Huizenga, Henry, and the non committal fan base.

Swift, maybe you have a reading comprehension problem I think I just said I hadn't tracked it down yet.

 

I had a great time and I imagine you did too, I'm sorry but I'm not spending the rest of the night trying to find a needle in a haystack at 11 o'clock at night.

 

Weren't you the one trumpeting your own success in finding a wonderful, 'definitive,' piece on this practice in question?

 

Yet again, here we are. I ask for substantiation. I have met the burden of proof. You have yet to do anything save throw large assumptions as fact without so much as practicing the wonderful fact checking you preach.

 

You based a great deal of your (and I use this tongue-firmly-in-cheek because it was just so cute) Shakespearian efforts to denigrate two viewpoints (two viewpoints, who I might add have cited copious more sources to this point then you have) and yet, when it came time to present facts, you slunk away ever so cowardly.

 

I anxiously await your presentation of Andrew Zimbalist's thoughts regarding MLB book-keeping, as I have already presented mine which stand in DIRECT contradiction to what you allege.

 

I thought it was posted pretty well why it wasn't posted at that time. But because you aren't getting what you want when you want it here come the barbs. As usual, ignoring the things that you don't want to hear and continuing on with the cyber tantrums.

You forgot to add the lies told to us by John Henry. But I would have to say more than it being Loria and Company's fault it would have to be a combination of Huizenga, Henry, and the non committal fan base.

 

I think you have to also give a pass to the fans sometimes. How many times have we been :

 

a) lied to by the different owners

 

b) promised a stadium is right around the corner

 

c) been used as pawns

 

d) had owners flirt with other communities

 

These things wear on people and eventually they get to a point where people lose interest. Especially when they feel ownership is not doing everything possible to win a championship. Loria may or may no be lining his pockets, but its the perception among the casual fan that he is cheap, and just wants his stadium. We've never heard a commitment from this ownership group that they will try to improve the team once they get the new stadium. They have continued to alienate what little they had left of a fanbase. How can you blame the fans for feeling jilted and not caring when it seems ownership doesn't care either ???? (I am not saying ownership doesn't care, but IT LOOKS LIKE they don't care about winning)

The who isn't fans either. It's WHAT us fans do (or don't) IN COMBINATION with the other factors that make for the dreadful state of the Marlins. There's going to be no easy fix. It won't be fixed simply by replacing Loria or ridding ourselves of Huizenga or appeasing fans. Nor will just a new stadium fix it.

Swift, maybe you have a reading comprehension problem I think I just said I hadn't tracked it down yet.

 

I had a great time and I imagine you did too, I'm sorry but I'm not spending the rest of the night trying to find a needle in a haystack at 11 o'clock at night.

 

Weren't you the one trumpeting your own success in finding a wonderful, 'definitive,' piece on this practice in question?

 

Yet again, here we are. I ask for substantiation. I have met the burden of proof. You have yet to do anything save throw large assumptions as fact without so much as practicing the wonderful fact checking you preach.

 

You based a great deal of your (and I use this tongue-firmly-in-cheek because it was just so cute) Shakespearian efforts to denigrate two viewpoints (two viewpoints, who I might add have cited copious more sources to this point then you have) and yet, when it came time to present facts, you slunk away ever so cowardly.

 

I anxiously await your presentation of Andrew Zimbalist's thoughts regarding MLB book-keeping, as I have already presented mine which stand in DIRECT contradiction to what you allege.

 

I thought it was posted pretty well why it wasn't posted at that time. But because you aren't getting what you want when you want it here come the barbs. As usual, ignoring the things that you don't want to hear and continuing on with the cyber tantrums.

 

Aww, man, that's fantastic. When we need to turn to someone to condescendingly put those children in their place, we'll know where to turn, or if we want to hear for the 65th time about someone holding two season tickets in the fish tank...you're our guy. Until you actually have something constructive to contribute, just butt out, but if we ever, and I mean ever, need someone to reminisce about the horrors of Polio, you're our man.

 

I'm not interested in rehashing this tired old debate. My side of the debate is well grounded in documented statement of fact (Professor Zimbalist) and highly educated opinion (Forbes). At no time do I cite anything but a credible source, and in the case of Zimbalist, the preeminent sports economist.

 

"Zimbalist's analysis is easily accessible, his data quite interesting and his judgments evenhanded almost to a fault" - Washington Post

"I tell my students at Harvard that Andrew Zimbalist is the top sports economist in the country" - Paul Weiler, Professor of Law and Chari, Sports Entertainment Law Program, Harvard University

 

I was dragged into this, begrudgingly, because Marlins2003 (or is it Shakespeare? I forget) attributed one of my sources, to my name, and did it categorically wrong. I provided evidence to the contrary in the form of direct quotes from Mr. Zimbalist that stand as a stark contrast to Marlins2003 undocumented reference, and simply ask for factual support on that issue. I don't care about IRS reports, I just care about seeing Andrew Zimbalist say that amortization is inapplicable to MLB teams, because I have shown that is not his stance.

 

I don't care about the rest, quite frankly I may take a Marlins2003 approach and simply stick my head in the ground and 'la la la la la' until it goes away because I choose to give no credibility to the source and rather formulate all I need to know from my own misguided opinions. The burden of proof for my argument has been met; copious sources have been cited (all of them credible) who outline point for point what I am saying: that baseball is insanely profitable and that there are myriad steps to hide earnings.

The who isn't fans either. It's WHAT us fans do (or don't) IN COMBINATION with the other factors that make for the dreadful state of the Marlins. There's going to be no easy fix. It won't be fixed simply by replacing Loria or ridding ourselves of Huizenga or appeasing fans. Nor will just a new stadium fix it.

 

I agree 100 % rferry, and it may just be that this is such a damaged market the team really does need to move. I hate saying that, but its close to that point I believe it can never recover. Its going to take something extraordinary on the field to ever get the town excited beyond the one to two seasons of "new stadium glow" for the fans. They will need to see something on the field. Losing Cabrera & Willis will not help.

 

It may just be we haven't hit rock bottom yet in the history of this sad sad franchise. :confused

Once again Swift you show your true colors, and confirm what everyone knows, you are truly anal cavity numbero uno.

 

I'm waiting for a reply to an email to Admin about how to upload something from Zimbalist's book in fact and something else regarding the IRS treatment of same so you'll see without having to leave the post to go links to find a reference and then come back, read some more and then go through the process a second and third times. You'll be happy to know I'm also using Forbes numbers so you can't complain, since you rather complain and get up on your soapbox than almost anything else.

 

I will tell you this, you didn't really bother to read what was written by Brattain or we wouldn't have to watch you make a spectacle of yourself again. All you had to do was compare what Zimbalist says in his book to what Brattain says and you'd know why what the former said was wrong, but as usual you're more invested in trying to make me look bad than the facts.

 

It's going to be a long fun off-season.

Let's see the online article, buddy.

 

I'm still waiting. Keep dancing, though, it suits you.

 

And, of course, still fitting and fantastic that name calling is what you need to resort too.

"anal cavity numero uno"

 

 

God, its been a while since a good old fashioned 2003/Swift Heavyweight bout and its been worth the wait!

Let's see the online article, buddy.

 

I'm still waiting. Keep dancing, though, it suits you.

 

And, of course, still fitting and fantastic that name calling is what you need to resort too.

 

No one here could ever out do you when it comes to name-calling and everyone knows it Swift so you don't to go there.

Can we have a serious discussion, without flame wars and personal attacks on what direction you think this franchise is going, and where they will be 1 year from now, and what shape we'll be in regards to a stadium deal ?

 

Here's my thought and I'm probably repeating what others have said because I just jumped on after I don't remember how long because I didn't see anything previously that made me want to respond after this disaster this season and I didn't read the other posts. What I post here is what I've felt for a long time.

 

The Marlins need to do this both short term and long term.

 

To start, Bud Selig needs to look at the reality of what's going on here with ownership after ownership. Loria can be OK, but his mini-me stepson is a problem (understatement). Mark Cuban wants to ba a MLB owner. Since MLB seems to not be comfortable with him owning one of its historical teams, than why not let him own one of its recent teams that, at this point, has nothing to lose. The Marlins need an owner with the "Just get the job done" mentality for both the stadium situation and the roster transactions. The ownerships that we have had are more appropriate to run fast-food restaurants, not professional sports teams. Short-changing your product doesn't work in sports.

 

Next, you need to get to the stadium situation (obviously). Get it done period...no more excuses and no more short-changing. Almost every business owner puts in the money to get started and acceots losses with the knowledge that he will make money in the long run. If all this roster/salary dumping was going on with a new stadium on the horizon I wouldn't have much of a problem with it, but we're dumping salary all the time and keep seeing the same ownership not want to fill in the financial gaps to finalize the stadium deal. Take a note from Mickey Arison...YOU HAVE TO SPEND MONEY TO MAKE MONEY YOU MORONS!!! The Heat are the most entertaining sports team in South Florida right now because THEIR OWNER HAS A CLUE HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS. Even Wayne Huizenga is starting to figure it out with his tranformation of Dolphins Stadium and hopes to build the Dolphins into a winner like he did in 1997 with the Marlins. Mr. Loria, stop listening to the 40+ year old preschooler that you call a stepson. What has he done with his life, beside being a lucky sperm cell, that makes him knowledgable about running a business? MR. LORIA, AND MINI-ME SAMSON, IF YOU CAN'T PAY THE BILL, JUST LEAVE!!! Let someone else that can and will pay the bill take over. Let me use a business term; IF YOU CAN'T MEET THE BOTTOM LINE AND GET A DEAL DONE, YOU SHOULD BE FIRED AS THE OWNER OF THE MARLINS AND BUD SELIG NEEDS TO GROW SOME BALLS AND ASK YOU TO LEAVE.

 

Finally, we have the roster/staff stuff. The absolutely first thing that the Marlins need to do is obviously get a defensive minded catcher. We have enough hitting to live with a light-hitting catcher that demands respect on the defensive end. At this time, we need a veteran and we will need to get a younger option for the future. This is one of the few times in the team's history that the Marlins have been without a quality catcher. We need to get back to that. Also, to help out with the team defense with the rest of our young players, I would seriously look to trying another option at 2B & look at bringing in a veteran for CF until De Aza or someone else can take over. Finally, we need to get 1 veteran SP (bring back Kim?) and look at a veteran lefty RP. I truly feel that with another pitching coach and new catcher, we will be ok with our pitching. As far as transaction possibilities; we definitely have trade bait in Cody Ross and either Mike Jacobs or Dan Uggla for very good additions. You can look at a balanced trade that involves Cody Ross and maybe bringing in a veteran catcher like Benji Molina or, if the Nats and Marlins are willing to deal within the division, Brian Schneider. Also, Ramon Castro is a free agent that would be looking to be a starting catcher. There are other catching options. I would look to get a 2B that is more defensively-sound than Uggla with more batting avg and SB ability. I would consider 2 options; 1) trading Uggla for someone of equal value with those skills, which obviously means someone with less power, but more in tune to be a top of the order hitter or 2) move Uggla to 3B and Miggy 1B, then trade Jacobs for that type of 2B. I prefer option 1 because Jacobs seems more competent as protection for Cabrera and Willingham than Uggla. You can then bring in a veteran CF like maybe a Kenny Lofton type. Also, make Miggy lose that weight. After you make your needed roster moves, make sure that you keep a short leash on Fredi Gonzalez losing games. Start looking now at possible early season replacements, such as bringing Joe Girardi back (permanently). This is what you can have for next year which would look good for many years:

 

SS-Hanley

2B-Young Brian Roberts type

RF-Hermida

3B-Cabrera

LF-Willingham

1B-Jacobs

CF-Kenny Lofton type

C-Benjie Molina, Brian Schneider, Ramon Castro type

P

 

Just my thoughts.

Why did you find your way back?

Finally, we have the roster/staff stuff. The absolutely first thing that the Marlins need to do is obviously get a defensive minded catcher. We have enough hitting to live with a light-hitting catcher that demands respect on the defensive end. At this time, we need a veteran and we will need to get a younger option for the future. This is one of the few times in the team's history that the Marlins have been without a quality catcher. We need to get back to that. Also, to help out with the team defense with the rest of our young players, I would seriously look to trying another option at 2B & look at bringing in a veteran for CF until De Aza or someone else can take over. Finally, we need to get 1 veteran SP (bring back Kim?) and look at a veteran lefty RP. I truly feel that with another pitching coach and new catcher, we will be ok with our pitching. As far as transaction possibilities; we definitely have trade bait in Cody Ross and either Mike Jacobs or Dan Uggla for very good additions. You can look at a balanced trade that involves Cody Ross and maybe bringing in a veteran catcher like Benji Molina or, if the Nats and Marlins are willing to deal within the division, Brian Schneider. Also, Ramon Castro is a free agent that would be looking to be a starting catcher. There are other catching options. I would look to get a 2B that is more defensively-sound than Uggla with more batting avg and SB ability. I would consider 2 options; 1) trading Uggla for someone of equal value with those skills, which obviously means someone with less power, but more in tune to be a top of the order hitter or 2) move Uggla to 3B and Miggy 1B, then trade Jacobs for that type of 2B. I prefer option 1 because Jacobs seems more competent as protection for Cabrera and Willingham than Uggla. You can then bring in a veteran CF like maybe a Kenny Lofton type. Also, make Miggy lose that weight. After you make your needed roster moves, make sure that you keep a short leash on Fredi Gonzalez losing games. Start looking now at possible early season replacements, such as bringing Joe Girardi back (permanently). This is what you can have for next year which would look good for many years:

I like Uggla but I think I may agree with you about the need for improved defensive play out of 2B. We're a terrible defensive team and 2B, SS, 3B and CF are the main reasons. Obviously Hanley and Miguel hit far more than enough to make up for their poor defensive play but I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case with Uggla. This year his Zone Rating (.754) is the 2nd worst for a 2B in MLB this entire decade. That sucks. Last year he was bad (.803) but he has regressed. I think with hard work he could improve a bit but with the nice guy manager I wouldn't anticipate the guys to work harder. I also agree nice guy will have a short leash. I think he'll get canned by June.

I like Uggla but I think I may agree with you about the need for improved defensive play out of 2B. We're a terrible defensive team and 2B, SS, 3B and CF are the main reasons. Obviously Hanley and Miguel hit far more than enough to make up for their poor defensive play but I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case with Uggla. This year his Zone Rating (.754) is the 2nd worst for a 2B in MLB this entire decade. That sucks. Last year he was bad (.803) but he has regressed. I think with hard work he could improve a bit but with the nice guy manager I wouldn't anticipate the guys to work harder. I also agree nice guy will have a short leash. I think he'll get canned by June.

Don't forget 1B, C, and RF.

 

We had terrible defensive play from Olivo, Jacobs and Hermida.

 

Overall a better 2B defensively wont make this a better defensive team.

 

This team needs better defensive coaching and more effort made into being better defensively.

While I agree that 1B, C and RF are bad but I think the others are worse. I agree coaching and hard work could go a long way to improve things.

I like Uggla but I think I may agree with you about the need for improved defensive play out of 2B. We're a terrible defensive team and 2B, SS, 3B and CF are the main reasons. Obviously Hanley and Miguel hit far more than enough to make up for their poor defensive play but I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case with Uggla. This year his Zone Rating (.754) is the 2nd worst for a 2B in MLB this entire decade. That sucks. Last year he was bad (.803) but he has regressed. I think with hard work he could improve a bit but with the nice guy manager I wouldn't anticipate the guys to work harder. I also agree nice guy will have a short leash. I think he'll get canned by June.

Don't forget 1B, C, and RF.

 

We had terrible defensive play from Olivo, Jacobs and Hermida.

 

Overall a better 2B defensively wont make this a better defensive team.

 

This team needs better defensive coaching and more effort made into being better defensively.

 

So that basically means the entire defense except for LF?

Hermida's a good defender. He's made mental mistakes but he's got good range and a good arm. Really RF is the only place I'm fine deffensively with the entire team.

 

Our biggest deffensive problem in the OF (outside of Cody in CF) is Hammer in LF. Not many players have worse range than he does.

 

Uggla...ZR is just one metric. He has a high FRAA, sub-par (but not horrible) RF...I wouldn't mind seeing what fielding gurus have to say about him. From my naked eye alone, he doesn't seem that bad, but I'm no scout and not going to trust my eyes.

 

I don't think Cabrera and deffinatly not Hanley are as bad deffensively, talent wise, as they were this year. But if they continue being like this....deffinatly not good.

I can't believe you guys don't include Hanley Ramirez, he is the worst defensive shortstop in baseball, he belongs in the outfield. If you want to improve the defense it should start with him.

Hermida's a good defender. He's made mental mistakes but he's got good range and a good arm. Really RF is the only place I'm fine deffensively with the entire team.

 

Our biggest deffensive problem in the OF (outside of Cody in CF) is Hammer in LF. Not many players have worse range than he does.

 

Uggla...ZR is just one metric. He has a high FRAA, sub-par (but not horrible) RF...I wouldn't mind seeing what fielding gurus have to say about him. From my naked eye alone, he doesn't seem that bad, but I'm no scout and not going to trust my eyes.

 

I don't think Cabrera and deffinatly not Hanley are as bad deffensively, talent wise, as they were this year. But if they continue being like this....deffinatly not good.

A guy's Range Factor will fluctuate A LOT by the number of balls hit his way and fluctuates very little by the number of plays he makes that the average fielder wouldn't make. I hate the Range Factor stat. I think it's useless and missunderstood. Zone Rating is 7366 times better.

 

Hammer's Zone Rating is not that bad. He's 10th out of 17 qualifying LFs.

Let's see the online article, buddy.

 

I'm still waiting. Keep dancing, though, it suits you.

 

And, of course, still fitting and fantastic that name calling is what you need to resort too.

 

No one here could ever out do you when it comes to name-calling and everyone knows it Swift so you don't to go there.

 

I'm still waiting...

 

That's all I want. Show me that article and then go back to spreading unsubstantiated lies.

Oh I agree, when I say range I don't mean range factor. But I don't like ZR much, either. It's outdated by other metrics and really not that good at all, many holes in it.

 

If you're going to use ZR, atleast use RZR. And while Uggla is dead last in qualified majors in RZR this year, he's third in OOZ. This shows he has good range, since he's made several players outside of his zone. He just sucks as a fielder this year, as can be seen by his 2006 RZR, when he was 9th in the league (and third in OOZ, again showing his good range).

 

Hanley also shows that he has good range but is just a bad fielder (bad RZR, good OOZ), and that he's also slacked of majorly this year (was second in OOZ last year, middle of the pack this year).

 

My personal favorite metric is Dewan's plus/minus system, and Hammer is third-worst by that. The other numbers haven't been released for this year, but I know Hanley was the worst SS at the all-star break and Amezaga was the 5th best CFer.