The stadium will be the property of the county and the marlins will have to pledge the franchise against their contractural thirty years of rent due.

 

It will be hard to sell the team with that encumberance on it.

 

Thanks 2003, wow.....you're post was incredible. Its just a shame Loria is here, I'm thinking almost any other owner would have been better.

 

I'm rather depressed right now -- the Marlins season was a disaster, the Heat sputtered out of the 1st round of the playoffs, the Panthers never made it to the playoffs for the upteenth year, and of course the Dolphins start the season 0-3. Man its never been this bad down here....maybe worse than ANYWHERE else. Our pro sports are just putrid right now.

Thanks everyone for all the info. Its a lot to take in, and I may not get to all the articles for a day or two.

 

I guess the main points in this thread are, that we are in trouble as a franchise, and will be as long as Loria is the owner. Well isn't that sweet :banghead

 

No, the point is we're "not" in that much trouble (at least financially) and what we are in is self-made.

 

The hopes for a Marlins renaissance are tremendous if you believe one of two things:

 

1) Loria's actions are in the best interest of the fanbase

 

or

 

2) Somewhere in the not too distant future, money's actually going to get spent on this team.

 

We're not in a dire situation like, say, Pittsburgh where it'll take more than money to make the team on the field good. We're not in a situation like Tampa where the deck is so heavily weighted against us that we need everything to turn out just right, and everything for the other teams to go just so wrong, for us to win.

 

The Marlins have the resources at their disposal to get this team over the hump. By extension, it stands to reason that getting over that hump would bring out fans. It then stands to reason that once you have the fans, you act to keep them. It's hard not to like a franchise that has Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez.

I am still of the opinion that Loria is forced to sell when a new stadium is put in place, or at least put on probation to see how he handles more funds, generated by a new ballpark.

 

If he continues to operate at the bare minimum that will be the straw that broke the camels back.

 

Either way, I doubt he lasts for owner for long after a stadium is built because A)he will have maximized profit and he sells or B)Selig will use the "best interest of the game" clause and force him to sell to someone who is actually financially capable of owning an MLB franchise.

Anyone who believes someone on this board who claims he or she knows that ownership is pillaging this franchise, pocketing tons of dough, or this franchise is wildly profitable while holding back the team from contending, should have their heads examined.

 

The Marlins position (and I'm talking about the last two years under the current ownership) is they are running a revenue neutral organization after losing tens of millions of dollars from 2002-2005 (let's remember they spent $130 million between 2004 and 2005 JUST on onfield payroll), and there is not a single person on this board who has a clue nevermind a fact to prove them wrong.

 

Forbes is guesses piled on top of more guesses, compounding each year because they refuse to adjust their formulas to keep up with the changes in the game for fear that they would no longer be able to compare year to year as they do. Zimbalist's credibility went out with platform shoes.

 

And wouldn't you think by now some enterprising reporter would have exposed Loria and company if they were lying?

 

Some whistleblower wouldn't have come forward because they didn't like the size of their Christmas bonus?

 

These kinds of things require a huge conspiracy. A huge conspiracy of silence.

 

Of lawyers, accountants, of CPAs, (all with their good names and careers on the line not to mention things like disbarment, jail time, etc.) willing employees in numerous departments from bookeeping to dispersements, minority partners, banks, the county, the bond underwriting community, the city, their minor league affiliates and all their employees, the list is literally endless yet not one person has stepped forward to say that the Marlins are being run any way other than the way they claim it is.

 

Certainly if the minority partners (who at best could be called "unfriendly") even suspected Loria and others were colluding against their best interests (and "Loria is putting the money in his pocket" would run counter to their best interests to be sure) they wouldn't remain silent, not after the way they wound up minority partners here in the first place. They'd have forensic accountants up Loria's a**hole every day of the week. They'd be back in court or being quoted in every newspaper in the country.

 

Yet none of that happens.

 

All this poison falls apart under the weight of scrutiny and the single undeniable truth - conspiracies never work.

 

Someone always gets bent out of shape and spills the beans. Every single f***ing time. And the reason you haven't heard about it is because it isn't happening. For some here there is no smear too great, no lie too big, no venom too voluminous to spread because they aren't fans, they are provocateurs masquerading as fans.

 

So before you listen to any more of this bulls*** being spread ask yourselves why no one has ever pointed a finger.

 

Why a scumbag like Joe Ariolla didn't spill the beans (the city and the county intimately understand the Marlins financial situation and have for years) when he was trying to force Loria to sell out for pennies on the dollar to a foreign national who just happened to be a big political contributor. All he had to do was slip it to any one of a number of reporters at the Herald and Loria would have been up sh*t creek without a paddle, and run out of town to boot.

 

Or maybe you think the Herald and the Sun-Sentinel and the Palm Beach Post are in on it too?

 

Don't you think Huizenga and company who are closest to what's happening in their stadium would have used even a hint of malfeasance to destroy the franchise once and for all and be rid of baseball and the threat it poses as a legitimate alternative for hundreds of millions if not billions of sports entertainment dollars if the Marlins are successful in getting their own venue? Nevermind the fact that Wayne's personal "Mainfest Destiny" is to prove himself right that baseball won't work in this market?

 

It becomes like a lynch mob here sometimes with everyone wanting to be the first guy to throw that noose over the tree branch... "I hear he's stealing a million a year"..."no, no it's ten million a year he's putting in his pocket"..."No it's $30 million a year they're making".

 

This is a limited partnership If this franchise made $30 million last season don't you think the limited partners would be screaming for their piece?

 

Does anyone stop and think how hard it is to steal (pocket, divert to your own purposes, whatever word or phrase you want to use) a million dollars, nevermind $30 million a year. You really think Bud Selig walks up to some bookkeeper in the offices of Major League Baseball and says "Oh by the way, make out that $30 million revenue sharing (or Luxury Tax) check for the Marlins in the name of Jeffrey Loria c/o account # 7492e23hg8 at the First Bank of the Grand Caymans?

 

Think. Use the brains God gave you. You're all smarter than that to be manipulated by these haters and rumor mongerers.

 

You can argue with the way the franchise is run, you can argue about how player personnel decisions are made, there's lots to be unhappy about after a season like this, but don't think for a minute this franchise is awash in dough or the owner is a thief because there is not a shred of evidence to conclude that. Too many people with their own agendas want this franchise to fail without something getting out, and to this moment not a word to the contrary has been spoken.

 

The reason MLB supports what's going on with the franchise is because Loria isn't amassing $30 million a year as some would have you believe. Clearly they believe in this market, they have enough confidence in the owner to not fine him as they did the Pirates or throw him out as they've done with other owners before.

 

And it isn't about rich vs poor owners because the way the math works in baseball there is plenty to go around and more coming. (Wait until you have a 24 hour MLB cable channel next year (I believe it's '08) and then watch the money really start pouring in) Or the notion that a richer owner would be willing to lose tens of millions a year in support of the team as if millionaires like losing money anymore than the rest of us do. Unless you have some gazillionaire out on Dan Marino Blvd handing out $20 bills to everyone attending the game every night accept the fact that without corporate clients and the casual fan having abandoned a wretched Dolphin Stadium experience, nothing changes until cashflow changes and that means a new venue.

 

The economics of the stadium drives everything. Frankly we're lucky we still have a franchise here. Thank God no one has an empty stadium in a major market ready for occupancy or we'd be screwed

 

But back to the subject at hand, this belief that the team is awash with dough or worse as some think the owner is pocketing it for himself.

 

The facts speak for themselves. There is no conspiracy of silence allowing those things to be true because there's nothing to conspire about.

Loria is not "pillaging" the franchise, it's his team. He is the owner and chooses to run it on a profit margin, that is his right. What is shameful is that he pockets the revenue sharing funds without investing it into operations, for which it meant to be used. That was meant to allow smaller market teams to be able to fairly compete against larger markets, not as a bonus to greedy owners. I am not gonna call Loria greedy but certainly he is not spending the money on the franchise, nor is willing to do so anytime soon. His pockets are being lined handsomely and conveniently, may I add, this is leading the league to consider a minimun payroll on all franchises.

Where do I think they're headed?

 

To further obscurity and straight down the crapper. You thought attendance was bad this year? The renewal rate is pretty bad, from what I've heard, and at least this season we had empty seats sold. Get ready for a lot of 7,000 mid-week games.

 

Unless the team is threatening to head into the play offs the renewal rate is always a little slow this time of year. The mandate that you have to renew for the next year to obtain play off packages is the reason. Those with any type of season ticket plans have plenty of time to renew their plans and keep their current seating, or close to their current seating. Last year the priority went to full season ticket packages getting priority on their choice of seats before any of the partial plans were filled. As it should be. The real head scratcher would be why that was the first year it went into affect. I don't expect any rush to renew for a few months yet. Near FanFest time. The exception to that would be the folks who do it on the payment plan.

 

7,000 mid week games? Actual attendance that would be an improvement. We are already down to our base core of full season ticket holders. I don't see any drop there. Which means I doubt we see any drop in announced attendance.

No, the point is we're "not" in that much trouble (at least financially) and what we are in is self-made.

 

The hopes for a Marlins renaissance are tremendous if you believe one of two things:

 

1) Loria's actions are in the best interest of the fanbase

 

or

 

2) Somewhere in the not too distant future, money's actually going to get spent on this team.

 

We're not in a dire situation like, say, Pittsburgh where it'll take more than money to make the team on the field good. We're not in a situation like Tampa where the deck is so heavily weighted against us that we need everything to turn out just right, and everything for the other teams to go just so wrong, for us to win.

 

The Marlins have the resources at their disposal to get this team over the hump. By extension, it stands to reason that getting over that hump would bring out fans. It then stands to reason that once you have the fans, you act to keep them. It's hard not to like a franchise that has Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez.

 

I still think with the Mets & Philly in this division we're always going to be in trouble. They have such resources at thier disposal, most of which will never be available to the Marlins, it was a freak accident of nature we won in 2003, and the stars may never align themselves for us ever again.

 

I do think the worst of all situations is Tampa Bay. I thank God everyday that Huizenga resisted moving us to the AL East as was proposed when Tampa and Arizona were franchised. How can you be a fan in Baltimore, Tampa or Toronto, when you know every year your team is behind the 8-ball with the 800 pound gorillas called New York & Boston in your division. I'll take the Mets & Philly over those two.

 

Why does MLB resist going to a complete revenue sharing as is done in the NFL ? The NFL has become as popular as it is, because of the competitive balance in the league, and the opportunity to be a good team every few years. Everyone has money, and several teams still can maintain huge profits like Dallas and the Giants, and Washington. They make so much money from extras and they get to keep much of it but yet much is also distributed to all the teams, and everyone makes oodles of $.

But his point remains, and it is still valid one. The Marlins cannot sustain themselves if MLB took the revenue sharing check away.

 

Revenue sharing has bought the Marlins a few extra years in terms of a) staying in South Fla or B) still being a ML franchise.

No, I think it just gives Loria the ability to own the team. Otherwise I don't think he would be so outspoken in his refusal to sell the team.

 

There is a difference.

Do you really think Cisneros or Cuban or anyone would willingly enter an agreement to own the team without revenue sharing and new stadium in place? This isn't the 1910's. MLB is big business. There's millions and millions of dollars to be made or lost. People buy MLB teams to make money, not to lose it.

Why does MLB resist going to a complete revenue sharing as is done in the NFL ? The NFL has become as popular as it is, because of the competitive balance in the league, and the opportunity to be a good team every few years. Everyone has money, and several teams still can maintain huge profits like Dallas and the Giants, and Washington. They make so much money from extras and they get to keep much of it but yet much is also distributed to all the teams, and everyone makes oodles of $.

MLB's culture is the self-operation of teams. They fight over sharing ticket sales. They fight over revenue sharing. They fight over funding a website. They were reluctant to extend the MLB brand. Thankfully, they've come around and have started to expand the MLB brand. What has made the NFL successful is not complete revenue sharing or the salary cap or parity, it's that they are every where and on everyone's TV set every Sunday, Monday and now Thursday and Saturday too. Over the past 40 years, NFL branded itself as America's game while MLB sat back and tried to hold on to tradition.

imo next year I see little changing except stadium will be underway

 

imo in 5 years I expect a new stadium built and Loria/Sampson selling the fish to a local ownership for a large profit

If you don't believe that MLB is working for the benefit of all 30 clubs, that somehow there isn't an intention for all clubs to remain viable, then you're a walking contradiction. On the one hand you say that MLB is the only thing that is keeping the Marlins afloat (and by extension all other small revenue and attendance teams) on the other you say that there is nothing to suggest that MLB is working for the benefit of all its owners.

I believe MLB does so begrudgingly and for the purpose of making the every one of its clubs stable, not necessarily viable. If you look at the actions of MLB and read the reports of owner meetings you come across a MLB that is extremely segregated and only in agreement when a profitable venture makes itself abundantly clear.

 

"international scouting and domestic scouting (two areas we're grossly understaffed to begin with)"

TSwift making up crap again. Nothing has been reported in the media to suggest that. On the contrary, the Marlins have one of the most respected scouting staffs in the league and is the only MLB team to own training complexes on 4 continents.

Loria is not "pillaging" the franchise, it's his team. He is the owner and chooses to run it on a profit margin, that is his right. What is shameful is that he pockets the revenue sharing funds without investing it into operations, for which it meant to be used. That was meant to allow smaller market teams to be able to fairly compete against larger markets, not as a bonus to greedy owners. I am not gonna call Loria greedy but certainly he is not spending the money on the franchise, nor is willing to do so anytime soon. His pockets are being lined handsomely and conveniently, may I add, this is leading the league to consider a minimun payroll on all franchises.

 

You've missed the point completely. Or points, more accurately.

 

The Marlins claim through their own words that they are running at break-even or "revenue-neutral". Anything to the contrary, would be viewed as a lie and a major news story since the Marlins position has been made before, and quoted and requoted many times, in the press. In short it would give everyone who would want to the perfect excuse to brand him a liar.

 

Your comment "it's his team. He is the owner and chooses to run it on a profit margin, that is his right. What is shameful is that he pockets the revenue sharing funds..." is without an proof whatsoever which was the point I made above. All you're doing is slurring the guy. He has a number of partners in this venture, you really think it all goes to him and they are left out in the cold? ***(This paragraph was poorly phrased on my part so I am adding this: There are no profits so there is nothing to pocket, and even if there was he'd be one of many standing in line for their cut. As general partner he has a fiduciary responsiblity here, but since there isn't it's moot)***

 

You do understand Loria does not take a penny in salary or other compensation from the team. You're saying "he pockets the revenue sharing funds", to me that's the equivalent of pillaging.

 

You're also contending in regards to revenue sharing "he not spending the money on the franchise" while the team's contention is every penny (in the figurative sense) goes into baseball operations.

 

You started out by saying Loria wasn't pillaging the franchise but three times in your response you make remarks to the contrary, the last one being "His pockets are being lined handsomely and conveniently...".

 

What insider information do you have? I suspect zero, nada, none. What evidence is there? None. You and others have a belief system based on a false premise because collectively you cannot conceive of how expensive it is to run a major league baseball team and a minor league operation, international scouting, etc. vs the revenue coming in.

 

Were it otherwise, were a story to break tomorrow with aquote from someone in the finance department, or from the county, some credible source to the contrary I would be Loria's most vocal critic. But as long as those who would wish him ill can't find any evidence of wrongdoing or poor shepardship of this franchise the rational thing is to believe is what they are saying is what they are doing, running the franchise at break-even.

break-even or "revenue-neutral"

 

in what terms? accounting terms or "real" terms?

Accounting is real.

 

But the question brings up another fallacious belief. People will say something like "well he has all this depreciation that hiding this big pot of dough, or some other write-off but generally it's just like owning a rental unit and getting depreciation on it. You can use that depreciation now and pay less taxes this year and much more in taxes when you sell, or you can let the depreciation accumulate and use it when you sell the property to offset what was a much bigger gain.

 

What I think you're really thinking of is "cash" vs "accrual" accounting, two (IRS) legitimate ways of accounting for your transactions. I forget this moment which MLB uses but there's nothing unique or nefarious about how the Marlins keep their books, MLB and the IRS make sure of that. If you think they are making $30 million and hiding it somehow because of their accounting methods, you're wrong, again for all the reasons above (see why conspiracies fail).

Accounting is real.

 

But the question brings up another fallacious belief. People will say something like "well he has all this depreciation that hiding this big pot of dough, or some other write-off but generally it's just like owning a rental unit and getting depreciation on it. You can use that depreciation now and pay less taxes this year and much more in taxes when you sell, or you can let the depreciation accumulate and use it when you sell the property to offset what was a much bigger gain.

 

What I think you're really thinking of is "cash" vs "accrual" accounting, two (IRS) legitimate ways of accounting for your transactions. I forget this moment which MLB uses but there's nothing unique or nefarious about how the Marlins keep their books, MLB and the IRS make sure of that. If you think they are making $30 million and hiding it somehow because of their accounting methods, you're wrong, again for all the reasons above (see why conspiracies fail).

 

I did not state that they are pocketing 30million.

 

I'm not at either extreme. it is most likely an in-between scenario. I don't think they are hurting or making a killing.

 

My point is. . . . Can they do more? Yes!

greg is up for arbitration which could make him out the door with all the saves hes racked up this season

This is true, but the price jump won't be huge with only one year of closing and more so, relief pitchers getting the least amount of relief in arbitration versus the other positions. They'll keep him for 2008 and either trade him at the deadline or after the season. Same for Dontrelle. Probably same for Mitre.

 

The pool of pitchers for 2009-2010

 

SP - Johnson, Olsen, Anibal, Gaby, Volstad, Vanden Hurk, Nolasco, Sinkbeil, Thompson

RP - Owens, Lindstrom, Tank, Pinto, Kensing, C. Mart, H. Garcia, Carvajal, J. Delgado, Tucker, Marceaux, Zarate, and those not getting a rotation spot. (note: injuries to J. Garcia and S. West)

 

We're in good shape. In a worst case scenario, 8-10 of those guys will make it and we'd easily be able to fill the backend of the rotation and bullpen with Mitre/Miller/Gardner types.

 

Getting rid of the veteran pitchers, like Dontrelle and Gregg, will be viewed as a purely financial decisions to the media when it happens, but it's not going to effect performance so just have to give credit to Beinfest for acquiring boatloads of young power arms.

 

And just for the humor, if we get rid of Olsen sometime in the next year (the one guy besides Dontrelle/Gregg/Mitre who will get a significant arbitration bump), our 1-12 pitchers could be club controlled in 2009. We could be fielding one of the better staffs in baseball for under $5 million if 2/3rds of these guys pan out to projections. And it would not pass $15 in 2010.

wow, good point Lou. That would be jaw-dropping.

The one thing I find funny, and this is not a flame, is that the Loria apologists put little factual information out there, instead just telling everyone they are wrong.

 

And there are only two people on this board that think Loria is a good owner.

The one thing I find funny, and this is not a flame, is that the Loria apologists put little factual information out there, instead just telling everyone they are wrong.

 

And there are only two people on this board that think Loria is a good owner.

 

Of course you're flaming, just by referring to anyone who doesn't agree with your POV as an apologist.

 

There is zero information available on the finances of the Marlins including Forbes, which by their own admission is without access to any MLB or team numbers and is purely based on supposition. Worse they continue to use the same model year after year for continuity sake, which in itself is a horrible mistake. Does it make for a good read? Sure. Should you bet the ranch on their conclusions? Only a fool would.

 

That there's zero confirmable information out there exactly my point. If the franchise or Loria and company were doing any of the things people so cavalierly accuse them of without an ounce of proof (as opposed to suspicion), my contention is it would demand a huge conspiracy of slience involving many hundreds of people and by now one of them would have said something.

 

You want me and others to prove a negative, like "Do you still beat your wife?", it's impossible. You don't have to agree with my position but the fact that there may be a greater number of people who believe Loria is doing this and that doesn't make it so.

 

The fact that nothing has come out to the contrary I believe speaks volumes. To me that is the smoking gun.

 

 

You don't have to agree but to continue to accuse with no proof is reprehensible.

2003 if there is no shenanigans going on with regards to the Marlins specifically, and in MLB general why don't we see those books ? What is MLB hiding ?

 

You make some very compelling arguments and I am just curious why MLB is so secretive about it all. The NFL is much more open about it all.

2003 if there is no shenanigans going on with regards to the Marlins specifically, and in MLB general why don't we see those books ? What is MLB hiding ?

 

You make some very compelling arguments and I am just curious why MLB is so secretive about it all. The NFL is much more open about it all.

 

One thing has nothing to do with the other. And the NFL is as closed-mouthed as Major League Baseball. I don't remember Wayne Huiizenga and Dolphins posting their financials anywhere. No good comes from doing so. The closest is the NBA but that's because of their unique player/ownership revenue split but you're talking about a vastly smaller sport and even there 90% of the finances are hidden from publish *public* view.

 

They (major league baseball, corporately or otherwise) have no obligation to "open their books" but some (as your question implies) seem to think they must be hiding something because they don't.

 

Obviously for competitive reasons and just good business sense going down the slippery slope of opening up your books to anyone who wants to see them for any reason, whether to gain a competitive advantage over them or a vendor (if Pepsi knows exactly how Coca-Cola's deal with MLB works they can use that as an advantage in a subsequent round of negotiations - overly simplistic example but it makes the point) or just idle curiousity, is always a mistake.

 

Frankly one person in a thousand would understand the full range of what they were looking at anyways. What you'd have is someone with their own agenda pulling out a specific line item and misrepresenting it by presenting it in a vacuum, the reasons for not doing so from a good practices point of view are endless.

 

The entities that need to know (in the case of the Marlins and their attempt at a new venue - the city, county, bond underwriting community, etc.) all know what they need to know to get a deal done.

 

You and I aren't entitled, plain and simple.

The way Loria handled business in Montreal is very nearly proof enough.

 

If you really want to believe that Loria is barely scraping by, when revenue sharing last year would of netted him at least twice what the team payroll was on top of was made from ticket sales, continue to be naive.

 

I am completely open to hearing what you have to say about Loria being a great owner and doing what he can to get the team to where it needs to be. Sadly, your opinion and whats actually happening really contradict. You say Forbes isnt reliable, well your opinion is even less. And all you have really put forth is your opinion.

2003 if there is no shenanigans going on with regards to the Marlins specifically, and in MLB general why don't we see those books ? What is MLB hiding ?

 

You make some very compelling arguments and I am just curious why MLB is so secretive about it all. The NFL is much more open about it all.

 

It's an allowed monopoly. MLB has an anti-trust exemption.

 

However, the most telling is that MLB rebukes the Forbes allegations as "oh, they're wrong." Without ever putting up facts to the contrary, surely if facts stand to your benefit, you'd be forthcoming with them. If this type of stuff does interest you, please do read the book I recommended by Andrew Zimbalist, it's not tremendously long and it delves, in detail, into the KGB-esque operations of MLB.

Thanks TSwift, 2003 & everyone else, you guys are giving me just what I wanted with this thread. Very informative & I learning that this is a VERY compliacted scenario down here. Much more than I ever thought.

The way Loria handled business in Montreal is very nearly proof enough.

 

If you really want to believe that Loria is barely scraping by, when revenue sharing last year would of netted him at least twice what the team payroll was on top of was made from ticket sales, continue to be naive.

 

I am completely open to hearing what you have to say about Loria being a great owner and doing what he can to get the team to where it needs to be. Sadly, your opinion and whats actually happening really contradict. You say Forbes isnt reliable, well your opinion is even less. And all you have really put forth is your opinion.

 

Okay I admit it every time you start spreading your lies about what happened in Montreal I want to pull whatever hair I have left from my head.

 

You do understand, or maybe you don't even though I have given you links on at least three ocassions to both the findings of two arbitration boards and the court which heard the minority owner's allegations that nothing Loria did in Montreal was illegal and the minority owners had "no one to blame but themselves".

 

Further the Toronto Globe and Mail, the most prestigeous newspaper in Canada in a week long series published recapping the entire fiasco in Montreal came to the conclusion that the minority owners, rather than being victims were rather the instigators of what happened, that, in the words of the Gobe and Mail, Loria was brought in to be their "fallguy" (the TG&M's word not mine) to provide them cover for their mistakes.

 

And by the way, "nearly proof enough" is not proof. This is the same thinking that gave people a reason to burn women at the stake in Salem Massachusetts because they had "nearly proof enough" to brand them witches.

 

And yeah, Forbes is another "nearly proof enough", without basis in "fact". Completely done by their own admission by extraction and supposition, finding a shred of data about one franchise and then applying it across the board to all others, recreating the Marlins/Dolphin Stadium lease from published news articles and comments by third parties not by reading and analysizing the implications of the lease from the source document. As for the rest of your unsustantiated claims of fact, I cannot imagine you have even the faintest idea what it is costing to run a baseball franchise or the economics behind it so please don't try to lecture me on business management.

 

My opinion is in no way contradictory. Contradictory to what? What you say is "actually" happening? Please, I know I suffer fools badly but you don't have leg to stand on, not a shred of evidence, nothing but your ramblings and diatribes.

 

In fact I'm not being supportive of Loria nor calling him a great owner, my contention is only that he isn't the bad owner, nefarious, the lining his pockets with cash owner you and your kind want everyone to believe.

 

If I have to I'll post for fourth time the court's findings in the matter you love to use, allegations by one side of an argument that you offer as "fact", which in the end did not prevail and in fact was found to be without merit. But even if I do post it a fourth time, you probably won't read it this time either and still go on making your baseless allegations.

 

Go find a witch to burn will ya, that's more up your alley.

Marlins2003 that was too overlydramatic of a posting for my taste! The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as much as you would love to defend Loria just tell us where he is investing on the team besides standard operations costs. The payroll has not been enhanced nor has scouting or development costs, The budget is already established without the Revenue sharing funds, where does that money go to? Let me know when you find out I am curious to know