Saying (in absolute terms as if to make it true) someone only has two pitches and him having only two pitches are two completely different things. He has a pretty decent changeup at this point, (the fact it doesn't help someone's argument doesn't mean it's okay to just ignore its existence). Seems to me he struck out at least one batter yesterday with it and perhaps more than one. And his "retarded" curveball is spectacular, he's just seemingly afraid to use it or right now is having trouble throwing it for strikes (mechanical issue). Again, the problems are confidence (which isn't going to change by moving him to the pen) and mechanics. Now last season it's true he was pretty much two pitches, but by the end of last season and certainly this spring he has developed a major league quality changeup that frankly he doesn't feature often enough.

 

But that's why he's back in the minors, to gain his confidence back and that using all his pitches with confidence.

 

As for the mental part of it, the history of baseball is replete with guys who had trouble pitching at the major league level even with the best stuff. Look at Zack Greinke in 2006, look at him now. Ankiel, Dennis "Oil Can" Boyd. The idea that because he's made it to the major leagues (where everyone knows he was rushed in the first place and given a chance to redeem himself this spring) because those around him were dropping like flies from injuries doesn't mean he was or is mature enough to handle the responsibilities thrust upon him. I don't know how anyone who watches games either in person or on TV can say they haven't seen that deer in the headlights look on his face. We've seen guys literally have nervous breakdowns as young starters, develop skin irritations, alcoholism and drug abuse and worse trying to cope.

 

Being dutch and stoic doesn't mean he's mature.

 

I said it before, I'll say it again, just because the major leagues are ready for you doesn't mean you're ready for the major leagues. Zack Greinke is the poster boy for what can happen. So were guys like Jim Eisenreich and Jimmy Piersall but for other reasons. Personally I think Vanden Hurk would be better off if everyone would stop measuring him against his hero Burt Blyleven, it doesn't help. Greinke overcame his problems with time, I think the same will be true with Vanden Hurk.

 

Now is not the time to tell him he is a failed starter. Now you build back his confidence in all his pitches and that he belongs at the major league level. He needs to succeed at that before suggesting a move to the pen. BTW, alot of the guys mentioned as starters turned relievers did so in the minors without ever having been a starter at the the minor league level. Tankersley, Pinto, both were converted at the minor league level. 2ensing got a Sept callup before being converted. It's rare pitchers don't begin their careers as starters so at least for me there's no merit in that argument. It's a red herring.

The thing is, you're only talking about a very small percent of players that have complete breakdowns. Guys that have breakdowns would have likely had breakdowns, regardless of how you handle them. You can't prevent a guy from being bipolar or having Tourettes or Social Anxiety Disorder. When it's discovered, yes treatment can be given and hopefully it can be coped with, but sometimes you just aren't going to find out until a player is put in the national spotlight.

 

It's not that he's made it to the major leagues, but that he's pitched in the major leagues with no noticable mental issues. He's had a deer-in-the-headlights look yes, but there's a difference between not having confidence and having a breakdown. The former can lead to the later, but that's if a person is weak mentally.

 

Plus you were talking about the mental aspects of a player moving to the bullpen anyway. Which yes, can effect a player but by and large chances are it won't.

The thing is, you're only talking about a very small percent of players that have complete breakdowns. Guys that have breakdowns would have likely had breakdowns, regardless of how you handle them. You can't prevent a guy from being bipolar or having Tourettes or Social Anxiety Disorder. When it's discovered, yes treatment can be given and hopefully it can be coped with, but sometimes you just aren't going to find out until a player is put in the national spotlight.

 

It's not that he's made it to the major leagues, but that he's pitched in the major leagues with no noticable mental issues. He's had a deer-in-the-headlights look yes, but there's a difference between not having confidence and having a breakdown. The former can lead to the later, but that's if a person is weak mentally.

 

Plus you were talking about the mental aspects of a player moving to the bullpen anyway. Which yes, can effect a player but by and large chances are it won't.

 

I was not implying that Vanden Hurk had a breakdown or was a candidate for one. Maybe you think all professional ballplayers have a will of iron and the confidence of Superman but the truth is more of them are like Clarl Kent, burdened with the same issues of confidence, self-worth and esteem that all of us have. There's though are magnified by playing in front of tens of thousands people every night. That was point about Zack Greinke. His S.A.D. didn't manifest itself when he was watching tv with friends, but it did when he was on the mound in a MLB game. And in the same way he overcame it, I'm sure with time Vanden Hurk will too.

 

Funny you should highlight Eisenreich. Were you to read up on the guy I wasn't speaking about his tourettes, rather the nightmares, baseball nightmares that from time to time overcame him. I can find a link for you if you'd like or you can look yourself. I remember Roger Maris' struggle and not just the year he broke Ruth's record and there have been so many more.

 

In the end though we'll have to disagree. I for the life of me don't understand how anyone couldn't see Vanden Hurk having coping issues on the mound whether they be the deer in the headlight look or the way he sometimes has trouble communicating with his catcher, these are just obvious clues he's perplexed what is happening around him.

 

In my mind all the kid needs is to mature. he doesn't need to be told he's a failure as a major league starter at age 22 because a franchise rushed him. Frankly it's what I fear most for Miller as well.

My last words on RVH

 

Last year should've been in his High-A ball year. He was only promoted and given a chance was due to injuries. Following the natural progression, this year he should be in AA Carolina. Again, he was only promoted to the bigs because of injuries. Normally, next year would be the first year he would have a chance at cracking the rotation. Not everyone can be like Dontrelle Willis and just light it up once they get to the show. I'll admit as a VandenHurk fan that I'm a little worried for his future, but he still has a lot of potential. Let's hope he has a great year in Carolina and go from there. For now, I'll be the biggest Burke Badenhop fan.

Saying (in absolute terms as if to make it true) someone only has two pitches and him having only two pitches are two completely different things. He has a pretty decent changeup at this point, (the fact it doesn't help someone's argument doesn't mean it's okay to just ignore its existence). Seems to me he struck out at least one batter yesterday with it and perhaps more than one. And his "retarded" curveball is spectacular, he's just seemingly afraid to use it or right now is having trouble throwing it for strikes (mechanical issue). Again, the problems are confidence (which isn't going to change by moving him to the pen) and mechanics. Now last season it's true he was pretty much two pitches, but by the end of last season and certainly this spring he has developed a major league quality changeup that frankly he doesn't feature often enough.

 

But that's why he's back in the minors, to gain his confidence back and that using all his pitches with confidence.

 

As for the mental part of it, the history of baseball is replete with guys who had trouble pitching at the major league level even with the best stuff. Look at Zack Greinke in 2006, look at him now. Ankiel, Dennis "Oil Can" Boyd. The idea that because he's made it to the major leagues (where everyone knows he was rushed in the first place and given a chance to redeem himself this spring) because those around him were dropping like flies from injuries doesn't mean he was or is mature enough to handle the responsibilities thrust upon him. I don't know how anyone who watches games either in person or on TV can say they haven't seen that deer in the headlights look on his face. We've seen guys literally have nervous breakdowns as young starters, develop skin irritations, alcoholism and drug abuse and worse trying to cope.

 

Being dutch and stoic doesn't mean he's mature.

 

I said it before, I'll say it again, just because the major leagues are ready for you doesn't mean you're ready for the major leagues. Zack Greinke is the poster boy for what can happen. So were guys like Jim Eisenreich and Jimmy Piersall but for other reasons. Personally I think Vanden Hurk would be better off if everyone would stop measuring him against his hero Burt Blyleven, it doesn't help. Greinke overcame his problems with time, I think the same will be true with Vanden Hurk.

 

Now is not the time to tell him he is a failed starter. Now you build back his confidence in all his pitches and that he belongs at the major league level. He needs to succeed at that before suggesting a move to the pen. BTW, alot of the guys mentioned as starters turned relievers did so in the minors without ever having been a starter at the the minor league level. Tankersley, Pinto, both were converted at the minor league level. 2ensing got a Sept callup before being converted. It's rare pitchers don't begin their careers as starters so at least for me there's no merit in that argument. It's a red herring.

Seriously? You say to me, "the fact it doesn't help someone's argument doesn't mean it's okay to just ignore its existence," which has no merit, and then are consistently wrong right down the page. Never denied Hurk can throw a changeup, or a cutter. I just believe, and I'm heavily support by the evidence (both statistical and scouting, since you think I'm a one trick pony), they are not average MLB pitches right now, let alone above average which he will need to be a starter. Again, it is unlikely at his age/development stage he will develop this pitch to the level where he needs. And further, with our organization pitching depth, it is very unlikely he cracks the rotation. WHILE, at the same time he has the arsenal that directly translates to the pen. Guys like Volstad, Trahern, and Thompson, they don't have the stuff to translate they pen. They are arsenal pitchers that are more finesse, and they must be groomed as starters. Vanden Hurk, has the rocket launcher. This can be used in the pen. Second problem with your post, is your examples. Greinke? He worked out his problems in the pen. Pinto? He was not converted as a RP in the minors. Unless you think 3 of Pinto's 146 minor league games constitute him being a reliever. Tank and Kensing? They were both converted when it was blatantly obvious they couldn't hack it as starters, which is where I see Vanden Hurk. It's OK to disagree with that, but the odds are against your belief from the information we have on him. I want to develop Jon Rauch, not Daniel Cabrera. I think that generally is what I expect from Vanden Hurk. Plus reliever, or high whip/high k starter.

 

Also, you mentioned elsewhere that relieving is a 'mentality.' I think your statements support my argument more than yours, as we can condition him in the minors to come and and throw fire, and not just make him a reliever at the big league level like Pinto. Get it into his head now to be a bulldog and throw darts for 25 pitches, and not worry about changing style the second time through the lineup.

 

As NNY said and I can't say better, if you can pitch in the majors, I'm willing to bet you're fine mentally....It's not that he's made it to the major leagues, but that he's pitched in the major leagues with no noticable mental issues. He's had a deer-in-the-headlights look yes, but there's a difference between not having confidence and having a breakdown. The former can lead to the later, but that's if a person is weak mentally...Plus you were talking about the mental aspects of a player moving to the bullpen anyway. Which yes, can effect a player but by and large chances are it won't. You are way to worried about guys feelings. These are professionals. If Hurk is going to cry about a move to the pen, he will simply cry about something else in the future later which will be equally as detrimental to any longterm plans. There is no make or break mental condition revolving around SP/RP. Way over stating this.

And his "retarded" curveball is spectacular, he's just seemingly afraid to use it or right now is having trouble throwing it for strikes (mechanical issue).

 

By the way, I think Lou meant "retarded" in a good way there. Like when his curve is on, it's ridiculously good.

What a joke. Go back to your Playstation and chill out. I'm sick of you lecturing everyone that it's your way or the highway, that nothing has merit unless you say so. You keep coming up with these absurd notions and expect 100% buy-in as if your wall of words approach in itself has value.

 

What was the last one? Baseball isn't a team sport? Or was it winning doesn't matter?

 

First Vanden Hurk has two pitches, oops now he has three. Now it's he can't learn anymore at age 22? Now it's "Again, it is unlikely at his age/development stage he will develop this pitch to the level where he needs".

 

WTF?

 

Says who? You? Your track record in player evaluation since you started posting here has been horrible. And you know why? Because you just do not understand the game is played on a real field with real players not on a computer screen. Until you accept the reality that people, imperfect as they are, living real lives with real things going on in them, with the same baggage we all carry around with us, play baseball, you are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.

 

I'm reminded of something Boog said on one of his last shows, that for all that is good in Alex Rodriguez' life, all the accomplishments, the money, the stardom and fame, the skill level of his game, he is still carries around the emotional baggage of his daddy (Boog's words not mine) not loving him enough and being left with enormously low self-esteem.

 

What stat of yours or Bill James factors that in?

 

That was a rhetorical question by the way, we already know they answer.

 

It's painful to read your stuff, I mean really. Lecturing everyone, no room for alternative positions. Nny is right because you say so. The fact is he's wrong. Because a player is rushed to the major leagues does not mean he belongs there or is by definition able to cope.

 

A difficult concept for you to put your arms around? Not my problem. "Fine mentally"? Bro, we're all f_____ up, if we all want to painfully honest with ourselves we all have stuff unique to each of us. You can take five guys the same age in the same or different minor league systems and they are all going to have differing levels of maturity, different motivations, different wills to succeed.

 

You go into the minors today and grab any kid you want and say "you wanna play in the bigs tonight?" he's packing his bag before you finish the sentence regardless of what the consequences will be and whether or not he's ready or able to compete at that level. That's human nature.

 

I've known a lot of major league players (mostly from hanging around Tropical Park when I first moved here fifteen years ago and not because I'm anyone special, it's where any number of them hang out), some names you know and some guys who got the smallest taste, one September callup game, but they all think of themselves as major leaguers. They made it!

 

(BTW, for those interested the batting cages and field at Tropical park is the greatest place in South Florida to talk baseball with guys who actually know the game and usually, if you're not embarrassingly bad are always looking for guys to play pick-up with because they still live for one more game whether it's Yankee Stadium or Tropical Park. Bring you glove and bat, be humble, remember even Alex Sanchez was better on his worst day than you'll ever be.)

 

I love it Lou when you say "I want to develop...", get a grip man you aren't developing anything, all you are is another guy on a website with a belief system that is highly flawed (as is mine but I openly admit to my fallibilities) demanding everyone think your way. It's boring and childish.

 

And so much of it wrong on it's face. Winning does matter. Even on a losing team.

 

So respond if you want with another wall of words. But let me quote my fourteen year old so you know how seriously it deserves to be taken... "Talk to the hand."

My last words on RVH

 

Last year should've been in his High-A ball year. He was only promoted and given a chance was due to injuries. Following the natural progression, this year he should be in AA Carolina. Again, he was only promoted to the bigs because of injuries. Normally, next year would be the first year he would have a chance at cracking the rotation. Not everyone can be like Dontrelle Willis and just light it up once they get to the show. I'll admit as a VandenHurk fan that I'm a little worried for his future, but he still has a lot of potential. Let's hope he has a great year in Carolina and go from there. For now, I'll be the biggest Burke Badenhop fan.

 

I'm in this boat.

 

Still too early for me to relegate him to the pen. Long-term that may be the answer but I still feel he's been unnecessarily rushed.

And his "retarded" curveball is spectacular, he's just seemingly afraid to use it or right now is having trouble throwing it for strikes (mechanical issue).

 

By the way, I think Lou meant "retarded" in a good way there. Like when his curve is on, it's ridiculously good.

Correct

So respond if you want with another wall of words. But let me quote my fourteen year old so you know how seriously it deserves to be taken... "Talk to the hand."

What a joke. Go back to your Playstation and chill out. I'm sick of you lecturing everyone that it's your way or the highway, that nothing has merit unless you say so. You keep coming up with these absurd notions and expect 100% buy-in as if your wall of words approach in itself has value.

 

What was the last one? Baseball isn't a team sport? Or was it winning doesn't matter?

 

First Vanden Hurk has two pitches, oops now he has three. Now it's he can't learn anymore at age 22? Now it's "Again, it is unlikely at his age/development stage he will develop this pitch to the level where he needs".

 

WTF?

 

Says who? You? Your track record in player evaluation since you started posting here has been horrible. And you know why? Because you just do not understand the game is played on a real field with real players not on a computer screen. Until you accept the reality that people, imperfect as they are, living real lives with real things going on in them, with the same baggage we all carry around with us, play baseball, you are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.

 

I'm reminded of something Boog said on one of his last shows, that for all that is good in Alex Rodriguez' life, all the accomplishments, the money, the stardom and fame, the skill level of his game, he is still carries around the emotional baggage of his daddy (Boog's words not mine) not loving him enough and being left with enormously low self-esteem.

 

What stat of yours or Bill James factors that in?

 

That was a rhetorical question by the way, we already know they answer.

 

It's painful to read your stuff, I mean really. Lecturing everyone, no room for alternative positions. Nny is right because you say so. The fact is he's wrong. Because a player is rushed to the major leagues does not mean he belongs there or is by definition able to cope.

 

A difficult concept for you to put your arms around? Not my problem. "Fine mentally"? Bro, we're all f_____ up, if we all want to painfully honest with ourselves we all have stuff unique to each of us. You can take five guys the same age in the same or different minor league systems and they are all going to have differing levels of maturity, different motivations, different wills to succeed.

 

You go into the minors today and grab any kid you want and say "you wanna play in the bigs tonight?" he's packing his bag before you finish the sentence regardless of what the consequences will be and whether or not he's ready or able to compete at that level. That's human nature.

 

I've known a lot of major league players (mostly from hanging around Tropical Park when I first moved here fifteen years ago and not because I'm anyone special, it's where any number of them hang out), some names you know and some guys who got the smallest taste, one September callup game, but they all think of themselves as major leaguers. They made it!

 

(BTW, for those interested the batting cages and field at Tropical park is the greatest place in South Florida to talk baseball with guys who actually know the game and usually, if you're not embarrassingly bad are always looking for guys to play pick-up with because they still live for one more game whether it's Yankee Stadium or Tropical Park. Bring you glove and bat, be humble, remember even Alex Sanchez was better on his worst day than you'll ever be.)

 

I love it Lou when you say "I want to develop...", get a grip man you aren't developing anything, all you are is another guy on a website with a belief system that is highly flawed (as is mine but I openly admit to my fallibilities) demanding everyone think your way. It's boring and childish.

 

And so much of it wrong on it's face. Winning does matter. Even on a losing team.

 

So respond if you want with another wall of words. But let me quote my fourteen year old so you know how seriously it deserves to be taken... "Talk to the hand."

For the last time, I do not play video games. This insult, is both factually inaccurate, and analogously inaccurate as it implies that I do not know what I am talking about.

 

First Vanden Hurk has two pitches, oops now he has three. Now it's he can't learn anymore at age 22? Now it's "Again, it is unlikely at his age/development stage he will develop this pitch to the level where he needs". In fact, if we go back to the first post, I wrote this "He needs a 3rd pitch. It has nothing to do with endurance. He's got the fastball. He has a retarded curve when it's on. But his changeup doesn't work. His "cutter" (if we can even call it that) doesn't come in on lefties." Now, if you have any reading comprehension, that clearly shows 4th pitches. Saying he needs a 3rd pitch, is saying he needs an effective 3rd pitch. I think this is blatantly obvious on word choice, so I do not know what you are crying about here. DIRECTLY, following this in the same post I said, "I find it very unlikely he develops a 3rd plus pitch at this level of development, which he desperately needs to remain a starter." Again, basic reading comprehension dictates this as NOT a wavering opinion, which is what you alleged here. This is a clear, consistent, train of thought where I think Vanden Hurk needs to develop another effective pitch to be a starter, and from the evidence of his lack of success, age, and overall skill set, this is very unlikely.

 

Then you say, "Says who? You? Your track record in player evaluation since you started posting here has been horrible. And you know why? Because you just do not understand the game is played on a real field with real players not on a computer screen. Until you accept the reality that people, imperfect as they are, living real lives with real things going on in them, with the same baggage we all carry around with us, play baseball, you are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over." I disagree. My track record is actually really good. The only glaring mistakes are Uggla hitting about 20-25 more extra base hits per year, which is pretty significant, and Petit did not turn into "Carlos Silva," although that is still pending I suppose but chances are against it. Dan will prove me right longterm when he turns into 'Ty Wigginton.' I'm content with this. I'm trying to think, I liked the Julio signing. He was obviously horrible here, but rebounded for a solid year elsewhere. We can't really call that a loss when overall I'm looking at everything from a player evaluation level and he did do what he was expected too. Regardless, this is not the point but good try derailing the argument, this is you shifting because you can't argue against my position cause you have weak analysis. Everything is pretty spot on from my train of though, and I am not just saying this. I can view arguments objectively. But seriously, I clearly don't understand baseball next to you though. Tell me again about BJ Upton being a faster Chris Aguila who can't play center field? I miss this. Really.

 

Then seriously, what is this?

 

I have no idea what this means, I'm reminded of something Boog said on one of his last shows, that for all that is good in Alex Rodriguez' life, all the accomplishments, the money, the stardom and fame, the skill level of his game, he is still carries around the emotional baggage of his daddy (Boog's words not mine) not loving him enough and being left with enormously low self-esteem. A-Rod is the best baseball player maybe ever. Apparently, this is even MORE amazing because his daddy didn't love him.

 

A difficult concept for you to put your arms around? Not my problem. "Fine mentally"? Bro, we're all f_____ up, if we all want to painfully honest with ourselves we all have stuff unique to each of us. You can take five guys the same age in the same or different minor league systems and they are all going to have differing levels of maturity, different motivations, different wills to succeed. You go into the minors today and grab any kid you want and say "you wanna play in the bigs tonight?" he's packing his bag before you finish the sentence regardless of what the consequences will be and whether or not he's ready or able to compete at that level. That's human nature. And?

 

I've known a lot of major league players (mostly from hanging around Tropical Park when I first moved here fifteen years ago and not because I'm anyone special, it's where any number of them hang out), some names you know and some guys who got the smallest taste, one September callup game, but they all think of themselves as major leaguers. They made it! Cool! I'm sure all minor leaguers like getting to the bigs. Good addition to the conversation.

 

I love it Lou when you say "I want to develop...", get a grip man you aren't developing anything, all you are is another guy on a website with a belief system that is highly flawed (as is mine but I openly admit to my fallibilities) demanding everyone think your way. It's boring and childish. And so much of it wrong on it's face. Winning does matter. Even on a losing team. I love being proven wrong. I love how Uggla has performed the last two years, while his skill set suggests otherwise. I'm only fearful he will stop hitting, which is why I want to trade him now while he is still a valuable commodity. You don't seem to understand this. I'm sorry if I view baseball from a front office perspective, and not from a fan eating hot dogs and beers. Enjoy baseball all you want, but when you type this gibberish on the website, you will get called out for it.

 

So respond if you want with another wall of words. But let me quote my fourteen year old so you know how seriously it deserves to be taken... "Talk to the hand."

 

I will always respond to your insane posts, because I believe in the greater good and it's worth the minutes of my time to prevent another reader on this site being blasted with incorrect information. Like how you dared not address any of the mistakes you made in your previous posts, and then come on an ad hominem attack. This is so typical. You guise yourself as being the "better" person by always theoretically stepping back when you are outrageously passive aggressive. It might fool the piddling 14 year olds around here since you have the capability of writing a sentence and dropping Oil Can Boyd's (who I'm guessing is old enough now where a lot of people don't know who he is) name in it, which makes it seem like you know something since that is 'historical,' but it really doesn't fool with anyone with a brain. To conclude, Talk to the hand? Are you sure you are not the 14 year old? That is so early 90's vernacular.

Except Lou just as an example you stated as fact he only had two pitches, now you're making the case he doesn't have four. His changeup was good enough to get at least one strike-out yesterday but I guess that doesn't count.

 

Falling back on the Upton/Aguila thing is so you. The comparison made (by me) was just that they were at some stage in their minor league careers players without a place to play and I never made a comparison of their skills rather their place in their respective organizations and if I remember how some members of each perceived them.

 

I may be a lot of things (*sshole works sometimes) but one thing I'm not is passive aggressive.

 

You really think I searched for Oil Can Boyd for a some premeditated purpose? That's a sickness. He was all over TV in the last few weeks, made every TV sports segment, which is why his name came to mind, in fact I think it was he pitched for a barnstorming team of ex-players in Fort Lauderdale (maybe). But the best one was that you, and by extension I guess only you, look at the team from a front office perspective, totally unaware of how ludicrous a statement that is considering your thoughts on player personnel and winning, and especially the effect the latter has on the former.

 

But please whatever you do, try to learn just a bit about the game, it might be a big help going forward. In the end though, as long as you have to be right about everything without nuance or interpretation, ultimately you wind up being wrong about everything.

2003 whining again....nothing new, just skip.

 

 

I think all of this is a bit premature, and I just know he does not belong in the bigs right now.

RVH is promising, just not yet ready. He has 3 pitches already, he just needs to work on hitting targets with them. He is one of the 11 or 12 guys that could be part of a great Marlins rotation in the next couple of years. I am keen to see how Badenhop does.

P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E :notworthy

 

...and that's all there is to it.

 

Vanden Hurk needs more time in the minor leagues. To call him a reliever at this point, is comical. He's 22 years old!!! He's barely had any minor league experience, to speak of.

 

He just needs time to work on a 3rd, and maybe a 4th pitch, that he can use consistently.

 

And for the record, I think Andrew Miller needs time to work on some things, as well. I hope I'm wrong, and he pitches a gem tonight (he's certainly capable of doing so), but fact is, Miller needs to work on his mechanics.

 

However, WE have to be patient with both of them, and just notice that they both have potential.

Except Lou just as an example you stated as fact he only had two pitches, now you're making the case he doesn't have four. His changeup was good enough to get at least one strike-out yesterday but I guess that doesn't count.

 

Falling back on the Upton/Aguila thing is so you. The comparison made (by me) was just that they were at some stage in their minor league careers players without a place to play and I never made a comparison of their skills rather their place in their respective organizations and if I remember how some members of each perceived them.

 

I may be a lot of things (*sshole works sometimes) but one thing I'm not is passive aggressive.

 

You really think I searched for Oil Can Boyd for a some premeditated purpose? That's a sickness. He was all over TV in the last few weeks, made every TV sports segment, which is why his name came to mind, in fact I think it was he pitched for a barnstorming team of ex-players in Fort Lauderdale (maybe). But the best one was that you, and by extension I guess only you, look at the team from a front office perspective, totally unaware of how ludicrous a statement that is considering your thoughts on player personnel and winning, and especially the effect the latter has on the former.

 

But please whatever you do, try to learn just a bit about the game, it might be a big help going forward. In the end though, as long as you have to be right about everything without nuance or interpretation, ultimately you wind up being wrong about everything.

Let's see him do it CONSISTENTLY, which he has not done. Let's judge Rick on 'AH' strikeout. What are you missing here? At least you agree he needs to go down. But that one is easy. And to address the last sentence, get over it. I learn new stuff everyday. I'm completely fine being wrong. If you want to attack my position, do it with more than calling in the wambulance and saying "guys have feelings." Sorry, that doesn't fly.

 

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HOWEVER, since you keep harping on this when brought up, as this is my prime example of how amazing your visual scouting of players is whenever you criticize one of the few that has not worked out for me, let's explore this once and for all. I do this only to show, that you distort nearly everything you say after the fact. I'll straight up say, I was pretty wrong up Uggla coming in. Thought he was maybe a 12-15 HR dude, and maybe turn into Wigginton. I think I will be right longterm, but he clearly surpassed that his first two years. The other "at the time" horrible thing I wanted to do was get Gathright for a pitcher, with the peak ones being Johnson or Nolasco (this was all before they had their breakout seasons for anyone still crazy enough to be reading this). Even though I would not do that now, I still don't think that would have been THAT big of a deal compared to our CF depth, and the fact Gathright posted a .370+ OBP last year which I was expecting. But in the end, it would have been 1 step forward, 2 steps back, because Joey's slug progression did not continue to the bigs, and now he is all walks, defensive range, and basepath speed. Not huge glaring, set the organization back, mistake. But yes, a mistake. I'm not embarrassed, I can live with them. At the time they made sense, and I am fine with the process. Regardless, the focus of the matter is, you completely deny stuff and sweep it under the rug by trying to narrow your statements when everyone destroys you.

 

ORIGINAL POST

 

Cantu and Upton both share "the most likely to be squeezed out of a job" spotlight this upcoming season in Tampa, which might be a good thing for the Rays. Possibly Cantu can find a job at first base where his defensive shortcomings can be held to a minimum, but Upton who failed as a shortstop (as referenced above) to make even routine plays holds little promise in the outfield other than blazing speed, and with a slumping bat at both the minor league and major league levels. He's a faster version of Chris Aguila with less defense. You look at Chris Aguila in the minors and you go OMG this guy is going to tear up the major leagues but he just never is quite able to prove himself. Ditto Upton. ....Thankfully neither Minaya nor Beinfest drank the kool-aid.

 

THEN, everyone went "bananas" calling you crazy (and this is another thing, you always say, even after ENTIRE threads jump on you because everyone thinks you mean one thing, but really you mean another, you say it's everyone else's problem that they don't understand. Really? It's everyone else's problem that we don't know what you say, and that is why we are wrong. Nice.), and then you clarified your position. In response to posts asking, did you really just compare a 26 year old Aguila to a 22 year old BJ Upton:

 

Yes I did. Got a problem with that?

 

Both showed tremendous promise in the minor leagues and both were unable to translate that success to the major league level. I realize you have some kind of fan crush on Upton but putting the Marlins aside for a minute, do you see a whole flock or even one other team beating a path to the Rays' door to acquire him? Simply, the answer is no. There's a reason.

 

And Eddie, I agree, it's absurd (Nolasco not being enough to get Upton) but I'm not sure the teams are still talking. With the closer thing still up in the air and Ricky being a logical candidate to take up at least part of the role, trading him right now (at least forme) makes little sense.

 

THIS, is definitely comparing Aguila to BJ straight up, and then going crazy saying you wouldn't trade Ricky for him. You compared their skills in the first post, then subsequent performance in the next post. This is so crazy, because you have to look at age. It's the most important thing if the guys are not at the same place of their development! You can't defer this to a broad minor league. THEN NEXT, you defend yourself against more attacks by changing the subject. This is shown below. Now, we are comparing them just on minor league success, despite the fact your first post was a direct comparison, and then YOU confirmed that. This is completely contradictory. This is what was said.

 

"Out of my mind" for having an opinion?

 

I was not comparing the two other than to say both succeeded in the minors and showed great promise but were not able to translate that at the major league level. Why this seems to bother some of you is baffling to me.

 

And while I did proffer that Aguila was better defensively, I doubt you could find anyone who thinks Upton is anything but a defensively liability. That is the rap on him, he has all these tools but can't make even simple plays.

 

No one here stands by players and is for giving them a chance more than me Lou. I haven't "soured" on him, his own performance, both offensively and defensively since 2004 have soured his chances in the bigs, not anything I've said.

 

Whether you like it or not he isn't worth Ricky Nolasco after three straight years of under-performing, NEVERMIND Ricky Nolasco PLUS "any pitcher in our farm system", I suppose that includes West, Volstad, anyone?

 

SO, this is the "03 shuffle" if it were a dance, where you compared them, confirmed the comparison, then say I'm not comparing, I'm just comparing their minor league performance. But I'm not going to look at anything. No age, nothing. Just minor league experience and they bombed in their callups. Wha Wha What? This doesn't make sense on so many levels, mainly because of the huge age differences with the players. You were/are dead wrong about his performance souring as he still kept up his minor league rates, at ridiculously young ages, but yet you still kept digging that grave, trying to make this as narrow as narrow as possible so you can somehow come out of this not looking absolutely wrong. I'm quoting Swift next because I think it's still accurate, and is a good example of the outrage "the entire board" had with you.

 

BJ UPTON IS 22 f***ING YEARS OLD!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR BRAIN!!!!!!!

 

CHRIS AGUILA WAS LANGUISHING IN THE MINORS AT 22 YEARS OLD!!!!

 

Just for kicks, the last full season Upton spent at any level was as a 21 year old in AAA. He went .303/.392/.490/.882. Aguila's 21 year old season? HIGH A BALL .240/.292/.357/.649.

 

The next year Aguila continued to struggle failing to post an OPS above .800.

 

To compare the two is laughable and completely disregards common sense.

 

NEXT, you reply to Swift.

 

I'm so sorry you find fault with my "opinion" Swift but if you even bothered to read what I wrote the comparison was only that neither was able to make the transition from the minor leagues to the bigs. I don't need a lecture on how to form an opinion or how I want to make an analogy, and if you don't have the faculties to understand the root of the comparison is not their tools, not their age, simply their shared inability to make that transition over the last three years, and that both held out unrealized promise that never materialized, there's not much I can say to yet another one of your insulting comments. I'm not the villain here, Upton with his five tools could have pushed Hollins to the bench three years ago to make a spot for himself if he had shown he had what it takes. He didn't and hasn't so far. Great players force themselves into lineups, good players wait their turn. So far Upton's turn hasn't come. He's not blocked by anyone, don't you think there's a reason he hasn't been handed the shortstop position outright in 2007?

 

I don't hate the guy. I just do not believe the hype and obsession shown here where people are falling over themselves to support the unsupportable. I'll say this, if Upton plays regularly in the major and equals Hanley Ramirez' 2006 numbers in 2007, I'll take a two week break from MB.com at seasons end. How about you do the same if he doesn't? Wanna take that bet?

 

FIRST, can we get that two week break? That would be awesome. Secondly, Swift did read your analysis, we all did, and this is you squirming around like usual, trying to get out of it and not look like a total moron. You HAVE to compare their tools, their age, their everything. It's what the whole argument turns on! It's like you realized how devastatingly wrong you are, and are just clinging to this narrow narrow narrow viewpoint which no one reasonable could decipher from your statements. This is what you say now. "The comparison made (by me) was just that they were at some stage in their minor league careers players without a place to play and I never made a comparison of their skills " I think the evidence against you is determinative at this point. There is nothing positional describing the players. You just say BJ is a defensive failure. That is not a comparison. There is nothing 'at the stages of the career,' as if there was, you have have realized BJ is a lot younger and playing a lot better than Aguila ever did. You completely chalk this aside, when it's literally the most important thing. Finally, you absolutely compared their skills, their speed, etc. All three things in that sentence are DEAD WRONG.

 

This happens ALL THE TIME AND WHY I CAN'T STAND IT, cause you vehemently argue against things that are just 'wrong.' This is just the most hilarious example, which is why it will continually be brought up whenever you use an ad hominem attack on anyone and avoid issues. I never bring this up on my own, always in response to hope to god that one day you will realize you are not exactly rational. I would prefer to stick to the actual THREAD. This post was about Vanden Hurk, then you attack an analysis with nothing but your feelings, then attack it with prior instances of mistakes (which are not as profound as you want to make them), which therefore makes THIS argument also wrong. This is a HUGE argumentative flaw, and you've been doing this for years. I only took the time at doing this right now, so for the love of god you stop the insanity. And this is ironic, because this post is insane! Maybe you actually seeing it, it will finally get it into your head. I appreciate your complete opposite wild and crazy views just to see a different perspective, and I would LOVE for the day you can defend yourself without quoting a National Geographic article about Charles Darwin, but if you want to bully around the site as much as you do, back it the hell up. It's very rarely you do.

:lol

 

I love this guy.