For what it's worth not every 22 year old ready to pitch in major leagues just because the opportunity presents itself.

 

Hopefully he has a chance to collect himself and a find a way to make that great stuff he has in his arsenal work for him on a consistent. He's got three pitches in his repertoire he just needs the confidence and the ability to locate them at will. Sometimes it just seems he loses his focus from one pitch the next, my assumption is his confidence is still shot from last year's major league experience.

 

Let's see if he can go down and dominate for a few months, I think that's what he needs, to feel like King Kong again the way he did in the Hawaiian League in 2006 that put him on the fast track, perhaps too fast a track looking back on it.

Thank God, I was beggining to wonder if this FO had any brains/fortitude at all. Apparently they do. Even if this move doesn't work and Badenhop struggles, at least we tried because Badenhop doesn't have a track record of stinking in the majors like Vanden Hurk does.

'bout time.

Great move. Hurk clearly needed some time to work on his secondary pitches. I really hope he can corral his secondary pitches. At least with Badenhop, he showed during the spring that he will be around the strike zone.

RVH at this point appears to be better suited for relief, go down work on some secondary pitches and we'll see you in the 2nd half, better yet Sept.

I am glad to see Hurk go back to the minors. He needs some more time.

I hope its Hopper who comes up. If it is, would this be his first ML debut?

I am glad to see Hurk go back to the minors. He needs some more time.

I hope its Hopper who comes up. If it is, would this be his first ML debut?

It would.

not to pile on but I just back from the game , Vanden Hurk throws way too many pitches even when he is "on" he has thrown 100 pitches midway thru the 5th . I think he is better suited to bullpen when/if he ever comes back .

I don't think its worth spending our time on Vanden Hurk. He is as washed up as Vagas.

I don't think its worth spending our time on Vanden Hurk. He is as washed up as Vagas.

washed up at 22? thats a joke for someone who can throw 95 and has a wicked curve...ridiculous

I don't think its worth spending our time on Vanden Hurk. He is as washed up as Vagas.

washed up at 22? thats a joke for someone who can throw 95 and has a wicked curve...ridiculous

LOL, whatever did happen to Jason Vargas? I know we traded him to the Mets, but I can't even remember who for.

 

I'd like to not think he's a lost cause, cause he does seem to have talent, but yeah, he needs to fix something and I don't know anywhere close to enough about pitching to say what.

Vargas was part of the Lindstrom/Owens trade. It was an excellent deal on our part.

 

Vargas is a number two draft pick bust. He has stuff that's less than mediocre and he doesn't have the strike zone control to compensate for it.

You never know....a year or two from now he might be the set up man for Lindstrom.

The more I look at his pitch counts this early in the season, and knowing he's already had his TJ, I've come the conclusion this rush to judgement idea of making Vanden Hurk a reliever is an utterly fallacious one.

 

His problem is not endurance, he could probably throw a hundred pitches in four days if asked. The problem is control and keeping his head straight when a problem occurs behind him or something takes out of "his" game.

 

It doesn't matter if he's in there to handle two batters or three or four innings in long relief, the same problems will pop up, the outcome isn't just predictable, it's virtually guaranteed unless the core problems are addressed successfully.

 

He has all the raw skills and the physicality to be a starter. The things he needs to work on are mostly between his ears and his mechanics. It would be criminal to throw away everything he has to offer in the future as a starter because of this rush to cultivate some relievers. There's plenty of them coming through the system now from Nestor to de LaCruz. Besides there's always another Todd Jones out there to pluck out of the sky.

 

It may turn out that eventually RVH winds up in the pen but as a last resort, the Fish aren't going to give up on him as a starter until he proves unequivocally that he can't cut it and he's not at that point yet, he gets at least one more stint as a starter before any other career path is taken.

The "turn him into a reliever" thing is that he hasn't produced as a starter, but with his K rate, he would still be good as a reliever. High K/High BB guys still work as relievers although they struggle as starters. Ideally he's a starter, but atleast we know there's a fallback option. The more concerning thing would be his HR rate. Giving up 1.65 HR/9 is going to get you blasted, starter or reliever.

The "turn him into a reliever" thing is that he hasn't produced as a starter, but with his K rate, he would still be good as a reliever. High K/High BB guys still work as relievers although they struggle as starters. Ideally he's a starter, but atleast we know there's a fallback option. The more concerning thing would be his HR rate. Giving up 1.65 HR/9 is going to get you blasted, starter or reliever.

 

He's 22 years old. Besides being a reliever is more mental than anything and it's more that that drives the stats than the stats drive the reliever. I know that's hard to understand for some.

The more I look at his pitch counts this early in the season, and knowing he's already had his TJ, I've come the conclusion this rush to judgement idea of making Vanden Hurk a reliever is an utterly fallacious one.

 

His problem is not endurance, he could probably throw a hundred pitches in four days if asked. The problem is control and keeping his head straight when a problem occurs behind him or something takes out of "his" game.

 

It doesn't matter if he's in there to handle two batters or three or four innings in long relief, the same problems will pop up, the outcome isn't just predictable, it's virtually guaranteed unless the core problems are addressed successfully.

 

He has all the raw skills and the physicality to be a starter. The things he needs to work on are mostly between his ears and his mechanics. It would be criminal to throw away everything he has to offer in the future as a starter because of this rush to cultivate some relievers. There's plenty of them coming through the system now from Nestor to de LaCruz. Besides there's always another Todd Jones out there to pluck out of the sky.

 

It may turn out that eventually RVH winds up in the pen but as a last resort, the Fish aren't going to give up on him as a starter until he proves unequivocally that he can't cut it and he's not at that point yet, he gets at least one more stint as a starter before any other career path is taken.

well said and exactly how i feel about RVH

He's got it all there, he just needs to put batters away. It's not so much that he doesn't have an out pitch, he can use the same pitches he gets ahead of batters with to put them away. The problem is he tries to get cute and make batters chase after getting them 0-2 most of the time. He falls into the trap and before he knows it it's 3-2 and then a few fouls and a walk later his pitch count is high. For one batter today he got to 0-2 and didn't mess around throwing another off speed pitch on pitch 3 for the K. I'm not saying he should throw all strikes because obviously he'd get belted -- but he needs to not mess around too much after getting ahead. If he can work on that, he's going to be really good. Discussing converting him to a reliever is an overreaction IMO. He's got a lot of potential as a starter.

The more I look at his pitch counts this early in the season, and knowing he's already had his TJ, I've come the conclusion this rush to judgement idea of making Vanden Hurk a reliever is an utterly fallacious one.

 

His problem is not endurance, he could probably throw a hundred pitches in four days if asked. The problem is control and keeping his head straight when a problem occurs behind him or something takes out of "his" game.

 

It doesn't matter if he's in there to handle two batters or three or four innings in long relief, the same problems will pop up, the outcome isn't just predictable, it's virtually guaranteed unless the core problems are addressed successfully.

 

He has all the raw skills and the physicality to be a starter. The things he needs to work on are mostly between his ears and his mechanics. It would be criminal to throw away everything he has to offer in the future as a starter because of this rush to cultivate some relievers. There's plenty of them coming through the system now from Nestor to de LaCruz. Besides there's always another Todd Jones out there to pluck out of the sky.

 

It may turn out that eventually RVH winds up in the pen but as a last resort, the Fish aren't going to give up on him as a starter until he proves unequivocally that he can't cut it and he's not at that point yet, he gets at least one more stint as a starter before any other career path is taken.

He needs a 3rd pitch. It has nothing to do with endurance. He's got the fastball. He has a retarded curve when it's on. But his changeup doesn't work. His "cutter" (if we can even call it that) doesn't come in on lefties. I have no problem sticking him in the minors and for him to work on those, but two pitch guys, and that's really generous with his control issues, do not make it as starters. They can as relievers. I find it very unlikely he develops a 3rd plus pitch at this level of development, which he desperately needs to remain a starter. Further, he flat out isn't going to make it as a starter with this organizations depth. He is not a better pitching prospect than A. Miller, Volstad, Olsen, Anibal, Johnson, G. Hernandez, Trahern, Thompson, and it is arguable with Tucker, Sinkbiel, Cruz, and Nolasco, and that is just in AA and above. I'll be SHOCKED if Hurk emerges as a top 5 candidate out of this group as a starter. I think you will too. This is not a knock to him. This is just, how it is.

 

Kensing was developed as a starter. Pinto was developed as a starter. Tank was developed as a starter. Cruz is being developed as a starter, but it seems near unanimous in the scouting world he ends up in the pen where we don't even talk about him on the board as a starter. All these guys have "the raw skills and physicality to be starters." It's not throwing away someone. Moving Hurk to the pen is not an insult, and relegating him to cast away status. To quote an ancient proverb, I know that's hard to understand for some.

The more I look at his pitch counts this early in the season, and knowing he's already had his TJ, I've come the conclusion this rush to judgement idea of making Vanden Hurk a reliever is an utterly fallacious one.

 

His problem is not endurance, he could probably throw a hundred pitches in four days if asked. The problem is control and keeping his head straight when a problem occurs behind him or something takes out of "his" game.

 

It doesn't matter if he's in there to handle two batters or three or four innings in long relief, the same problems will pop up, the outcome isn't just predictable, it's virtually guaranteed unless the core problems are addressed successfully.

 

He has all the raw skills and the physicality to be a starter. The things he needs to work on are mostly between his ears and his mechanics. It would be criminal to throw away everything he has to offer in the future as a starter because of this rush to cultivate some relievers. There's plenty of them coming through the system now from Nestor to de LaCruz. Besides there's always another Todd Jones out there to pluck out of the sky.

 

It may turn out that eventually RVH winds up in the pen but as a last resort, the Fish aren't going to give up on him as a starter until he proves unequivocally that he can't cut it and he's not at that point yet, he gets at least one more stint as a starter before any other career path is taken.

 

I agree with parts of what you're saying, specifically about mental issues being a major factor. I just happen to think that coming out of the bullpen might force him to think a little differently and maybe pitch better. Truthfully though, I don't think he'd be successful in any role right now.

if you can pitch in the majors, I'm willing to bet you're fine mentally.

 

And although Hurk has strugle in the majors, he's shown it's just his lack of current skill and not mental (Both by his actions, and the fact he's dominated the minors when sent back down).

if you can pitch in the majors, I'm willing to bet you're fine mentally.

 

And although Hurk has strugle in the majors, he's shown it's just his lack of current skill and not mental (Both by his actions, and the fact he's dominated the minors when sent back down).

have you ever heard of John Rocker?

He's got it all there, he just needs to put batters away. It's not so much that he doesn't have an out pitch, he can use the same pitches he gets ahead of batters with to put them away. The problem is he tries to get cute and make batters chase after getting them 0-2 most of the time. He falls into the trap and before he knows it it's 3-2 and then a few fouls and a walk later his pitch count is high. For one batter today he got to 0-2 and didn't mess around throwing another off speed pitch on pitch 3 for the K. I'm not saying he should throw all strikes because obviously he'd get belted -- but he needs to not mess around too much after getting ahead. If he can work on that, he's going to be really good. Discussing converting him to a reliever is an overreaction IMO. He's got a lot of potential as a starter.

 

Pretty much agree. He just can't seem to get that last strike, or the last pitch to get them out. Basically the same problem he had last year. We watched him walk off the field and straight to the door to the club house. Told the wife right them he was going in there to pack for the trip to AA. Shame, because we both really like the kid. He's just not there yet.

 

Badenhop gets the call up. I would think Ricky gets the next start in place of Dutchboy and Badenhop goes to the pen for long relief until we need the 5th starter. We shall see.

I don't see the point in sending him down to AA. From what I've seen of the minors, you can't really see what a pitcher is worth until they get some innings in at the AAA level where the batters are more patient at the plate are working on getting deeper into their at bats. I grew up in Tampa and know a couple of the pitchers that went through the Rays organization and are no longer with them and from what I gather from them, all you need to do at the AA level to be successful is to either blow it by the hitters or throw it in the dirt. Batters at that level are swinging at everthing trying to prove something and make their way up to the show. That being said, I think anyone we bring up from below AAA is not going to stay with the team for any length of time. There are very few pitchers that can come up that quickly and be successful.

This rocks, with Hop and Nolasco in the rotation, there might be some hope

 

Badenhop is known for throwin strikes and he is a sinker-baller, the type of pitcher that has had some major sucess in the league recently