April 20, 200818 yr BTW: just to quickly defend Minaya, who I think gets underrated by most fans, but I like most of his signings and trades with the Mets. -Jon Maine for Kris Benson -Signed Beltran -Traded our favorite closer Jorge Julio for Orlando Hernandez -Got Oliver Perez for Xavier Nady -Signed David Wright long term to a great deal -Has built a very good bullpen and one of the best lineups in the league Was the Bannister trade bad? Yep. Lindstrom > Vargas + Bostick Yep. But what else has he done that is so awful?
April 20, 200818 yr The only dumb move by Beinfest was the Derrek Lee trade, when we got Hee Seop Choi. Aside from that, he's been pretty much flawless in trades. ...imagine if he had a decent payroll to work with, consistently. :blink: Really? Jorge Julio for Yusmeiro Petit? :blink: LOL, yeah...because Yusmeiro Petit has done well in the big leagues, right? He throws about 88 mph, tops, and his fastball is flat. We traded Julio for BK Kim, and Kim was better than Petit has ever been in the big leagues. And BK Kim sucks.
April 20, 200818 yr BTW: just to quickly defend Minaya, who I think gets underrated by most fans, but I like most of his signings and trades with the Mets. -Jon Maine for Kris Benson -Signed Beltran -Traded our favorite closer Jorge Julio for Orlando Hernandez -Got Oliver Perez for Xavier Nady -Signed David Wright long term to a great deal -Has built a very good bullpen and one of the best lineups in the league Was the Bannister trade bad? Yep. Lindstrom > Vargas + Bostick Yep. But what else has he done that is so awful? Beltran has actually underachieved a bit with the Mets. Oliver Perez for Xavier Nady isn't exactly a steal, imo. Nady has been solid with the Pirates. I'd say the Mets won the deal, but Nady isn't half bad. And the "very good bullpen" he built choked the division for them last year, in September, for what it's worth. ...and once again, comparing the Mets payroll to the Marlins, is not fair. I'd love to see what a guy like Beinfest, or yes, even Billy Beane, I'll admit...I'd like to see what they could do, with a payroll like the 1 Minaya has in NY.
April 20, 200818 yr The only dumb move by Beinfest was the Derrek Lee trade, when we got Hee Seop Choi. Aside from that, he's been pretty much flawless in trades. ...imagine if he had a decent payroll to work with, consistently. :blink: Really? Jorge Julio for Yusmeiro Petit? :blink: LOL, yeah...because Yusmeiro Petit has done well in the big leagues, right? He throws about 88 mph, tops, and his fastball is flat. We traded Julio for BK Kim, and Kim was better than Petit has ever been in the big leagues. And BK Kim sucks. We also had to pay something like $2.1 million, if I remember correctly.
April 20, 200818 yr Why the idol worship for Beinfest, he's a good GM, but he's as fallible as any other GM in the game and he's probably a top 5-10 GM... but seriously... don't put him above people that deserve proper credit proper credit? The guy has less than a 20 million dollar payroll to work with, this year because owner, Jeffrey Loria isn't willing to spend money, until the stadium deal is done. What are you talking about? The fact that this team actually goes out and makes games close (much less win), is an accomplishment, to begin with. The payroll is a joke, yet Beinfest has put a team together, that is at least competitive in games. The FEW times he had a solid payroll to work with, included 2003...the Marlins won the World Series that year. :notworthy :notworthy
April 20, 200818 yr Why the idol worship for Beinfest, he's a good GM, but he's as fallible as any other GM in the game and he's probably a top 5-10 GM... but seriously... don't put him above people that deserve proper credit proper credit? The guy has less than a 20 million dollar payroll to work with, this year because owner, Jeffrey Loria isn't willing to spend money, until the stadium deal is done. What are you talking about? The fact that this team actually goes out and makes games close (much less win), is an accomplishment, to begin with. The payroll is a joke, yet Beinfest has put a team together, that is at least competitive in games. The FEW times he had a solid payroll to work with, included 2003...the Marlins won the World Series that year. Look at the pieces he traded to acquire said talent... Lowell, Beckett, Lee, Pierre, Castillo (though we didn't get much) Dontrelle, Miggy, Lo Duca, Carlos Delgado, high to semi-high draft picks from our not-so-great finishes, supplemental draft picks from letting some FA's walk... trading those types of players will ALWAYS yield some kind of good return... (unless you're the Pirates) What makes Beinfest better than most (but definitely not all) GMs is the Dan Uggla rule 5 signing, the Hermida draft pick, the Vargas/Bostick deal... But considering we had a great payroll in 2004 and 2005 what was Beinfest's excuse... underperforming players and/or bad luck... but some of you all don't seem to hold that against Beinfest like most people hold the same type of gripe against Billy Beane... And seriously, everyone needs to understand that by "don't put him above people that deserve proper credit"... IT MEANS THERE ARE BETTER GMS THAT DESERVE MORE CREDIT FOR DOING GOOD GM STUFF BETTER THAN BEINFEST... I'm not saying Beinfest isn't a good GM, I swear, you people just read what you want to read out of my posts...
April 20, 200818 yr BTW: just to quickly defend Minaya, who I think gets underrated by most fans, but I like most of his signings and trades with the Mets. -Jon Maine for Kris Benson -Signed Beltran -Traded our favorite closer Jorge Julio for Orlando Hernandez -Got Oliver Perez for Xavier Nady -Signed David Wright long term to a great deal -Has built a very good bullpen and one of the best lineups in the league Was the Bannister trade bad? Yep. Lindstrom > Vargas + Bostick Yep. But what else has he done that is so awful? signing players is not difficult to do when the franchise essentially prints its own money relative to what Admin and co. have to work with. and what has he done that's so good?
April 20, 200818 yr The only dumb move by Beinfest was the Derrek Lee trade, when we got Hee Seop Choi. Aside from that, he's been pretty much flawless in trades. ...imagine if he had a decent payroll to work with, consistently. :blink: Really? Jorge Julio for Yusmeiro Petit? :blink: LOL, yeah...because Yusmeiro Petit has done well in the big leagues, right? He throws about 88 mph, tops, and his fastball is flat. We traded Julio for BK Kim, and Kim was better than Petit has ever been in the big leagues. And BK Kim sucks. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced
April 20, 200818 yr BTW: just to quickly defend Minaya, who I think gets underrated by most fans, but I like most of his signings and trades with the Mets. -Jon Maine for Kris Benson -Signed Beltran -Traded our favorite closer Jorge Julio for Orlando Hernandez -Got Oliver Perez for Xavier Nady -Signed David Wright long term to a great deal -Has built a very good bullpen and one of the best lineups in the league Was the Bannister trade bad? Yep. Lindstrom > Vargas + Bostick Yep. But what else has he done that is so awful? He traded Heath Bell for nothing.
April 20, 200818 yr Why the idol worship for Beinfest, he's a good GM, but he's as fallible as any other GM in the game and he's probably a top 5-10 GM... but seriously... don't put him above people that deserve proper credit proper credit? The guy has less than a 20 million dollar payroll to work with, this year because owner, Jeffrey Loria isn't willing to spend money, until the stadium deal is done. What are you talking about? The fact that this team actually goes out and makes games close (much less win), is an accomplishment, to begin with. The payroll is a joke, yet Beinfest has put a team together, that is at least competitive in games. The FEW times he had a solid payroll to work with, included 2003...the Marlins won the World Series that year. Look at the pieces he traded to acquire said talent... Lowell, Beckett, Lee, Pierre, Castillo (though we didn't get much) Dontrelle, Miggy, Lo Duca, Carlos Delgado, high to semi-high draft picks from our not-so-great finishes, supplemental draft picks from letting some FA's walk... trading those types of players will ALWAYS yield some kind of good return... (unless you're the Pirates) What makes Beinfest better than most (but definitely not all) GMs is the Dan Uggla rule 5 signing, the Hermida draft pick, the Vargas/Bostick deal... But considering we had a great payroll in 2004 and 2005 what was Beinfest's excuse... underperforming players and/or bad luck... but some of you all don't seem to hold that against Beinfest like most people hold the same type of gripe against Billy Beane... And seriously, everyone needs to understand that by "don't put him above people that deserve proper credit"... IT MEANS THERE ARE BETTER GMS THAT DESERVE MORE CREDIT FOR DOING GOOD GM STUFF BETTER THAN BEINFEST... I'm not saying Beinfest isn't a good GM, I swear, you people just read what you want to read out of my posts... but...what are they doing that makes them better?
April 20, 200818 yr The only dumb move by Beinfest was the Derrek Lee trade, when we got Hee Seop Choi. Aside from that, he's been pretty much flawless in trades. ...imagine if he had a decent payroll to work with, consistently. :blink: Really? Jorge Julio for Yusmeiro Petit? :blink: LOL, yeah...because Yusmeiro Petit has done well in the big leagues, right? He throws about 88 mph, tops, and his fastball is flat. We traded Julio for BK Kim, and Kim was better than Petit has ever been in the big leagues. And BK Kim sucks. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced Call me when Petit actually does something of value in the big leagues. Till then, that trade was terrible for terrible.
April 20, 200818 yr but...what are they doing that makes them better? Well, Billy Beane completely innovated player scouting and amateur drafting, as well as FA pickups to an extent Cashman has won numerous WSs, and the core of those teams were home grown Theo Epstein proved that Billy Beane's "style" can be effective outside of Oakland and that it wasn't some sort of fluke and won a championship with said "style" Scheruholz(sp?) has won countless division titles with his homegrown talent and the legendary big 3 who were all acquired very young in there careers Dombrowski has always been good with player development and has turned around that once horrible Tigers franchise (remember, Dombrowski is responsible for Miggy) Beinfest has kept the team competitive, gave us teams in 2004 and 2005 that could have won the division and been the best team in the NL, but failed to reach the playoffs BOTH times. He's acquired great players like Hanley Ramirez, Jeremy Hermida and could be responsible for the great Maybin/Miller duo (if the baseball fates are kinda to us) but he just hasn't had the impact of those 5 guys
April 20, 200818 yr That was $2.1 million we'll never see again and at least 4 lost games on account of Beinfest's stubbornness. The fact alone that Beinfest made Jorge Julio "his guy" questions his talent instincts. Some of us here were vehemently opposed to that trade long before Julio pitched his first game as a Marlin.
April 20, 200818 yr http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced Call me when Petit actually does something of value in the big leagues. Till then, that trade was terrible for terrible. :blink: I just proved to you that he was better than Kim was, and that we would have benefitted from keeping him last year AS WELL AS THIS YEAR... and you shrug it off... OH! AND I proved that Petit was MORE VALUABLE than the average replacement player and Kim was LESS VALUABLE than said replacement player... I'd say Petit did something "of value in the big leagues"... you know VORP
April 20, 200818 yr $2.1 million + Petit = Julio + Kim We would have been better off doing nothing. And I liked Kim.
April 20, 200818 yr http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced Call me when Petit actually does something of value in the big leagues. Till then, that trade was terrible for terrible. :blink: I just proved to you that he was better than Kim was, and that we would have benefitted from keeping him last year AS WELL AS THIS YEAR... and you shrug it off... OH! AND I proved that Petit was MORE VALUABLE than the average replacement player and Kim was LESS VALUABLE than said replacement player... I'd say Petit did something "of value in the big leagues"... you know VORP ...and yet, it's still not a big mistake, because Petit is still mediocre. It ends up being crap for crap. Seriously, what does this make a guy like Minaya (who many people say is better?) Trades a #2, possibly an ace in the future (Bannister) for a guy who throws as many strikes as Jorge Julio (Burgos). Shall I go on? And as some guy mentioned...Minaya also traded Heath Bell (one of the best middle relievers in baseball) for...basically, nothing. EVERY GM (including Billy Beane, and the rest) make mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes Beinfest made was the Julio trade, and he traded...Yusmeiro Petit? Yeah, I'll take that in a GM all day.
April 20, 200818 yr You might be right about the $$$ but for some reason I'm remembering through one of the trades we wound up shedding that money and Kim essentially pitched for major league minimum. I'm not 100% sure but I just don't think it's worth going back and going through all the transactions.
April 20, 200818 yr I'm not entirely sure myself, but the only way we would have have avoided paying it would have been if Colorado ate Julio's entire salary (rather, our portion of it. Arizona was slated to pay $3 something million). I don't recall that ever happening.
April 20, 200818 yr http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced Call me when Petit actually does something of value in the big leagues. Till then, that trade was terrible for terrible. :blink: I just proved to you that he was better than Kim was, and that we would have benefitted from keeping him last year AS WELL AS THIS YEAR... and you shrug it off... OH! AND I proved that Petit was MORE VALUABLE than the average replacement player and Kim was LESS VALUABLE than said replacement player... I'd say Petit did something "of value in the big leagues"... you know VORP ...and yet, it's still not a big mistake, because Petit is still mediocre. It ends up being crap for crap. Seriously, what does this make a guy like Minaya (who many people say is better?) Trades a #2, possibly an ace in the future (Bannister) for a guy who throws as many strikes as Jorge Julio (Burgos). Shall I go on? And as some guy mentioned...Minaya also traded Heath Bell (one of the best middle relievers in baseball) for...basically, nothing. EVERY GM (including Billy Beane, and the rest) make mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes Beinfest made was the Julio trade, and he traded...Yusmeiro Petit? Yeah, I'll take that in a GM all day. Minaya was in none of the 5 I mentioned... I don't like Minaya, nor do I care for his GM style... but the 5 I named are DEFINITELY above Beinfest, based on track record alone... I would gladly take ANY of those 5 GMs I named before Beinfest... Also, I already beat you to the "all GMs make mistakes line"... But you don't care to concede that Petit was more valuable than either Julio or Kim combined last season... that's just ignoring quantitative fact in front of you...
April 20, 200818 yr Here it is: The Marlins were responsible for $2.5 million of Julio's $3.6 million contract, with Arizona taking on the remaining $1.1 million. Kim has a $2.5 million contract, so the trade left both teams even from a financial perspective, with both Julio and Kim eligible for free agency at the end of 2007. So yes, I would consider that $2.5 million lost even with the addition of Kim. Still, it is illogical to even factor in Kim. Beinfest somehow had it in his mind that giving $2.5 million for Julio was a good idea. Arizona was probably just waiting to unload that hefty contract.
April 20, 200818 yr http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/kimby01.php http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/petityu01.php Read for yourself... keeping Petit would have netted us better innings and cheaper too because we wouldn't have had to give up the money Penguino referenced Call me when Petit actually does something of value in the big leagues. Till then, that trade was terrible for terrible. :blink: I just proved to you that he was better than Kim was, and that we would have benefitted from keeping him last year AS WELL AS THIS YEAR... and you shrug it off... OH! AND I proved that Petit was MORE VALUABLE than the average replacement player and Kim was LESS VALUABLE than said replacement player... I'd say Petit did something "of value in the big leagues"... you know VORP ...and yet, it's still not a big mistake, because Petit is still mediocre. It ends up being crap for crap. Seriously, what does this make a guy like Minaya (who many people say is better?) Trades a #2, possibly an ace in the future (Bannister) for a guy who throws as many strikes as Jorge Julio (Burgos). Shall I go on? And as some guy mentioned...Minaya also traded Heath Bell (one of the best middle relievers in baseball) for...basically, nothing. EVERY GM (including Billy Beane, and the rest) make mistakes. One of the biggest mistakes Beinfest made was the Julio trade, and he traded...Yusmeiro Petit? Yeah, I'll take that in a GM all day. Minaya was in none of the 5 I mentioned... I don't like Minaya, nor do I care for his GM style... but the 5 I named are DEFINITELY above Beinfest, based on track record alone... I would gladly take ANY of those 5 GMs I named before Beinfest... Also, I already beat you to the "all GMs make mistakes line"... But you don't care to concede that Petit was more valuable than either Julio or Kim combined last season... that's just ignoring quantitative fact in front of you... Actually I did, sir. Yet I also admitted that Petit was crap, which he is. He hasn't amounted to anything, and is only valuable when you put him next to names like BK Kim and Jorge Julio. Therefore, it's crap for crap. And I don't feel like going up to see the 5 GM's you mentioned, but I bet you each 1 of those guys has made a BIG mistake (and when I say mistake I mean Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi, not Julio for Petit)...
April 20, 200818 yr I think I remember. Still the caveat I could very well be wrong. Julio goes to Colorado for Kim, we trade contracts. At this point we are paying Kim his going rate. Later, we put Kim on waivers and the Diamondbacks pick him up and his contract. He blows up there and they release him. They are now on the hook for his contract. We sign Kim back at the major league minimum. I think.
April 20, 200818 yr Actually I did, sir. Yet I also admitted that Petit was crap, which he is. He hasn't amounted to anything, and is only valuable when you put him next to names like BK Kim and Jorge Julio. Therefore, it's crap for crap. And I don't feel like going up to see the 5 GM's you mentioned, but I bet you each 1 of those guys has made a BIG mistake (and when I say mistake I mean Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi, not Julio for Petit)... He is more valuable than the average replacement player (in a literal sense)... that is valuable. Right now we are doing guesswork trying to find a 5th starter that can maintain an ERA under 5, and Petit can do that... we don't have Petit... therefore Petit isn't "crap"... "crap" is reserved for Jorge Julio's Marlins tenure. He is a very slightly above average ML pitcher. Also, if you "don't feel like" tracking back the conversation, you kinda lose the right to argue the point. But, I reiterate, I was the first to make the point that ALL GMs make mistakes. However, the 5 guys I did name, they've been very successful and haven't made as many mistakes... they are pretty much the BEST GMs in the game. Beinfest will have to win a completely homegrown World Series to unseat them. Alot of the talent on the 2003 (upwards of 75% of it) was not attributed to Beinfest.
April 20, 200818 yr I think I remember. Still the caveat I could very well be wrong. Julio goes to Colorado for Kim, we trade contracts. At this point we are paying Kim his going rate. Later, we put Kim on waivers and the Diamondbacks pick him up and his contract. He blows up there and they release him. They are now on the hook for his contract. We sign Kim back at the major league minimum. I think. I'm 99% sure this is right.
April 20, 200818 yr And I don't feel like going up to see the 5 GM's you mentioned, but I bet you each 1 of those guys has made a BIG mistake (and when I say mistake I mean Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi, not Julio for Petit)... Beinfest has made more than one big mistake. Just as bad as the DLee trade was trading Penny for a gutsy catcher and an injured right fielder. I would be surprised if another GM has ever inherited more young talent at both the major and minor league level than Beinfest. He's good. He's luckier.
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