It was a while ago but my memory of the D Lee thing was he made it abundantly clear he wasn't signing here, went on a "tour" with his agent of other cities (he of course couldn't "speak" with other teams but...), seems to me his father was either with the Cubs or had some previous association, he even dropped by Baltimore and with the clock ticking the Marlins made the trade rather than re-sign him for one season and then getting nothing.

 

Lee for all his skills on the field had none in the clubhouse, bad-mouthed the new ownership in 2002 when they came in, later screamed bloody murder when they didn't submit to Cliff Floyd's extortion attempt and again when Johnson and Wilson were traded in the trade that ultimately led to a series of moves that resulted in a world championship.

 

I think in a perfect world everyone would have liked to see Lee a Marlin for a number of years beyond 2003 but it wasn't in the cards. I'm not sure how this was necessarily Beinfest's "fault", Lee had his own agenda.

 

-------------------------

EDIT: thinking about it the Marlins may have very well given him permission to talk to other teams...can't remember definitively

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Treanor is a bad situational hitter, i dont like him at all.

Actually I did, sir. Yet I also admitted that Petit was crap, which he is. He hasn't amounted to anything, and is only valuable when you put him next to names like BK Kim and Jorge Julio. Therefore, it's crap for crap.

 

And I don't feel like going up to see the 5 GM's you mentioned, but I bet you each 1 of those guys has made a BIG mistake (and when I say mistake I mean Derrek Lee for Hee Seop Choi, not Julio for Petit)...

 

 

He is more valuable than the average replacement player (in a literal sense)... that is valuable. Right now we are doing guesswork trying to find a 5th starter that can maintain an ERA under 5, and Petit can do that... we don't have Petit... therefore Petit isn't "crap"... "crap" is reserved for Jorge Julio's Marlins tenure. He is a very slightly above average ML pitcher.

 

Also, if you "don't feel like" tracking back the conversation, you kinda lose the right to argue the point. But, I reiterate, I was the first to make the point that ALL GMs make mistakes. However, the 5 guys I did name, they've been very successful and haven't made as many mistakes... they are pretty much the BEST GMs in the game. Beinfest will have to win a completely homegrown World Series to unseat them. Alot of the talent on the 2003 (upwards of 75% of it) was not attributed to Beinfest.

 

 

Yusmiero Petit had a 4.58 ERA last year, and now has a 6.23 ERA this year in a limited # of innings. This guy is mediocre. When he was a Marlin, he sucked (9.72 ERA, he got ripped every time he came out).

 

I'd take Ricky Nolasco over him, and according to most of you, Nolasco doesn't even belong as a starting pitcher, in the big leagues.

So what does that make Petit? A career long reliever / spot starter? Because Nolasco has been better than Petit.

 

As for your top 5 list, I think I'm missing it, in the thread because I don't see it. I see a list on the 1st page, but it's not yours, so I'm not sure... :confused

Marlins owe Kim for when he was in a marlins uniform.

 

Diamondbacks owed the amount due to him after he was claimed

Has anybody else noticed that Rabelo has a touch of that same fatal affliction that Olivo had?

The inability of a catcher to simply catch the ball.

Is he leading the league in passed balls?

I believe he's had at least 2, plus at least 1 additional error, in just 7 games.

Has anybody else noticed that Rabelo has a touch of that same fatal affliction that Olivo had?

The inability of a catcher to simply catch the ball.

Is he leading the league in passed balls?

I believe he's had at least 2, plus at least 1 additional error, in just 7 games.

 

 

Olivo used to miss fastballs right down the middle from lefties.

From what I've seen, Olivo was far worse...although, Olivo had a better arm, I think.

Has anybody else noticed that Rabelo has a touch of that same fatal affliction that Olivo had?

The inability of a catcher to simply catch the ball.

Is he leading the league in passed balls?

I believe he's had at least 2, plus at least 1 additional error, in just 7 games.

 

 

Olivo used to miss fastballs right down the middle from lefties.

From what I've seen, Olivo was far worse...although, Olivo had a better arm, I think.

I figured Olivo being a career 239 hitter had something to with his being let go too.

Has anybody else noticed that Rabelo has a touch of that same fatal affliction that Olivo had?

The inability of a catcher to simply catch the ball.

Is he leading the league in passed balls?

I believe he's had at least 2, plus at least 1 additional error, in just 7 games.

 

 

Olivo used to miss fastballs right down the middle from lefties.

From what I've seen, Olivo was far worse...although, Olivo had a better arm, I think.

I figured Olivo being a career 239 hitter had something to with his being let go too.

 

Forget the fact, he hit .239...overall, his .OBP was always at .300, or sometimes below it. How many walks did he draw last year? Couldn't have been more than 10. He was my least favorite Marlin, for awhile.

Has anybody else noticed that Rabelo has a touch of that same fatal affliction that Olivo had?

The inability of a catcher to simply catch the ball.

Is he leading the league in passed balls?

I believe he's had at least 2, plus at least 1 additional error, in just 7 games.

 

 

Olivo used to miss fastballs right down the middle from lefties.

From what I've seen, Olivo was far worse...although, Olivo had a better arm, I think.

No doubt about it. Olivo had plenty of time to prove how inept he was at catching. And I agree that he had a better arm. I'm not defending him or saying I want Olivo back. Just sayin' that I see a touch of the same fatal flaw in Rabelo in the limited time that we've seen him. I give all the young players two years at least to show what they have, or don't have. I'm just now reaching my own opinions on Jacobs, Uggla, Ramirez, Willingham, Hermida,

et.al.

It was a while ago but my memory of the D Lee thing was he made it abundantly clear he wasn't signing here, went on a "tour" with his agent of other cities (he of course couldn't "speak" with other teams but...), seems to me his father was either with the Cubs or had some previous association, he even dropped by Baltimore and with the clock ticking the Marlins made the trade rather than re-sign him for one season and then getting nothing.

 

Lee for all his skills on the field had none in the clubhouse, bad-mouthed the new ownership in 2002 when they came in, later screamed bloody murder when they didn't submit to Cliff Floyd's extortion attempt and again when Johnson and Wilson were traded in the trade that ultimately led to a series of moves that resulted in a world championship.

 

I think in a perfect world everyone would have liked to see Lee a Marlin for a number of years beyond 2003 but it wasn't in the cards. I'm not sure how this was necessarily Beinfest's "fault", Lee had his own agenda.

 

-------------------------

EDIT: thinking about it the Marlins may have very well given him permission to talk to other teams...can't remember definitively

-------------------------

 

From the way I remember it...

 

We had 3 IFers coming up for negotiations at the same time. We chose to go with signing Lowell and Castillo and letting Lee slip away. Lee had a great glove but at Joe Robbie he just wasn't the hitter he was in other parks. That was when the RF wall seemed to be so hard to clear. We all knew he was very under rated for his defensive skills. And most also knew his offensive numbers would explode inside the Friendly Confines. At that time it was the right move for the Marlins. And the right move for DLee. It was only after he became a Cubby and took advantage of that ball park did folks around South Florida say we made the wrong move. Typical fan stuff, IMO.

but...what are they doing that makes them better?

 

Well, Billy Beane completely innovated player scouting and amateur drafting, as well as FA pickups to an extent

 

Cashman has won numerous WSs, and the core of those teams were home grown

 

Theo Epstein proved that Billy Beane's "style" can be effective outside of Oakland and that it wasn't some sort of fluke and won a championship with said "style"

 

Scheurholz(sp?) has won countless division titles with his homegrown talent and the legendary big 3 who were all acquired very young in there careers

 

Dombrowski has always been good with player development and has turned around that once horrible Tigers franchise (remember, Dombrowski is responsible for Miggy)

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Beinfest has kept the team competitive, gave us teams in 2004 and 2005 that could have won the division and been the best team in the NL, but failed to reach the playoffs BOTH times. He's acquired great players like Hanley Ramirez, Jeremy Hermida and could be responsible for the great Maybin/Miller duo (if the baseball fates are kinda to us) but he just hasn't had the impact of those 5 guys

 

This is my top 5, Beinfest is out of it, I say nothing bad about him, but yeah, these are guys I definitely think are better.

Food for thought, vis a vis Dombrowski...

 

How many people can say they were responsible for bring a HOF-type 3B to a team, twice?

The Yankees won the World Series because of Gene Michael (the guy who gave guys like Derek Jeter, Mariano, etc. their chance). Not Brian Cashman. It's just now that Brian Cashman is hanging onto prospects.

 

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

 

Not to mention, the ridiculous contracts guys like Giambi now have (can't get rid of him). Mussina (can't get rid of him). He continues signing guys to terrible contracts. Even ARod...I would never sign anyone at the age of 30, to a 10 year contract. Sorry.

 

As for Beane, still don't see what he's done that Beinfest hasn't. Player development? He's made his share of mistakes as well for all the "money ball" talk. Trading Aaron Harang for basically nothing to the Reds hasn't turned out to be a dandy, for example. Just don't see the big deal about him.

 

Epstein and Dombrowski, I actually think they deserve the credit, there. And Schuerolz with the Braves is very good also, I can't complain about those 3, if you want to put them ahead of Admin Beinfest.

 

Brian Cashman is a definite no, though.

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

First off, they don't have 3 DHs, they have 2 LFers. It's not that they have at least 1 of those guys on the bench, they have to have at MOST one of those guys on the bench, because if not, you have an empty space in the outfield.

 

I'll let someone else take care of the rest of your argument, because I could care less. I just don't like people misrepresenting facts.

With all the injuries plaguing the Yankees right now, there's rumblings in the New York press about Girardi working his veterans too hard this spring.

 

Hmmm...but them again it's New York and everyone and everything is under a microscope.

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

First off, they don't have 3 DHs, they have 2 LFers. It's not that they have at least 1 of those guys on the bench, they have to have at MOST one of those guys on the bench, because if not, you have an empty space in the outfield.

 

I'll let someone else take care of the rest of your argument, because I could care less. I just don't like people misrepresenting facts.

 

2 "LF'ers."

1 with no arm (Damon), and 1 who's mediocre all around defensively (Matsui).

Giambi IS a DH hitting .109, "earning" a good 23 million dollars...he plays 1B (terrible), b/c Matsui has to get games in, as well.

 

Seriously, Cashman has 200+ million dollars on his payroll.

Yet, his team is NOT built for October ball.

How do you have a 200+ million dollar payroll, and have 2 good starting pitchers (Wang, Pettite). Only.

Mike Mussina has become a mediocre pitcher, yet they can't get rid of him either (another TERRIBLE contract).

 

Instead of having Damon, Matsui, AND Giambi (ALL 3 is unnecessary)...why not spend that money on 1 maybe 2 pitchers, for the bullpen at least?

 

It's sad that Cashman and Steinbrenner are actually having a little argument over the fact that Chamberlain should be a starter. Why? Well, b/c if Chamberlain doesn't setup, who will? Brian Cashman made 1...count 'em 1 move this summer...he signed LaTroy Hawkins (a guy who has been irrelevant since his last years in Minnesota).

 

How's he spending his money wisely? Give Admin Beinfest 200 million dollars...I bet you he'd at least have 3 solid starters, and a bullpen (as a matter of fact, he has built 1 of the best bullpens in MLB, at a cheap cost here, already).

 

And for the record, the same I said for Cashman goes for Dombrowski this year (although I think Dombrowski is actually very good). What's the point of having a great offense, if you can't hold the other team, anyway? Because come playoff time, power pitching wins ballgames. Come playoff time, pitching gets better (hence the reason, the Yankee lineup hasn't looked so "great" in past years, come playoff time).

 

The Tigers have like the 2nd highest payroll in MLB, yet their relievers consist of, 40 year old closer Todd Jones, and middle relievers who wouldn't even make the team here (a team with a payroll under 20 mill). How does that happen?

 

With 150+ mill, at least...you should be able to put together a team that can win it all. You can have a great offense, yet you're going nowhere if you can't balance it out with at least a solid starting rotation / bullpen.

I posted twice. Sorry. :banghead

 

Anyway, I think this is a really cool time to thank you guys for being great debaters on this board. Thanks to you guys, I can now talk Marlins baseball daily.

 

This board is great, and you guys from Day 1, have really accepted me on here, so thanks.

 

Moving on now... :cool

The Yankees won the World Series because of Gene Michael (the guy who gave guys like Derek Jeter, Mariano, etc. their chance). Not Brian Cashman. It's just now that Brian Cashman is hanging onto prospects.

 

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

 

Not to mention, the ridiculous contracts guys like Giambi now have (can't get rid of him). Mussina (can't get rid of him). He continues signing guys to terrible contracts. Even ARod...I would never sign anyone at the age of 30, to a 10 year contract. Sorry.

 

As for Beane, still don't see what he's done that Beinfest hasn't. Player development? He's made his share of mistakes as well for all the "money ball" talk. Trading Aaron Harang for basically nothing to the Reds hasn't turned out to be a dandy, for example. Just don't see the big deal about him.

 

Epstein and Dombrowski, I actually think they deserve the credit, there. And Schuerolz with the Braves is very good also, I can't complain about those 3, if you want to put them ahead of Admin Beinfest.

 

Brian Cashman is a definite no, though.

 

I think it is very difficult to view Cashman objectively since he only recently gained full control over the front office. In the days when the Yanks were trading away all their young talent of old over-payed sluggers, most of those moves came from above his head. When he signed his extension a few years back, George promised to stop interfering, and for the most part he did (with the exception of the Torre thing). It will be interesting to see if the Yanks stay the course or if Hank decides he needs to make his mark (see statements about Joba today). I think that Cashman is either vastly over rated or vastly underrated. In my opinion, we really need to see how the current crop of young guns pans out before judgement can be past. Everything from before has Steinbrenner fingerprints all over it.

 

By the way, given his resources, I probably have Beinfest in the top ten.

 

Top 5:

Schurholtz

Beane

Theo

Kevin Towers

Josh Byrnes

I can't believe I've ignored Mark Shapiro this whole time too, and Josh Byrnes... though I'd disagree with Kevin Towers a bit, but that's just my slight opinion... Shapiro and Byrnes go above Cashman on my list

The fundamental truth is that platoons suck. We are going want a regular and a back up

Why Byrnes? I think almost all their good players were acquired when Garagiola was the GM... I could be wrong though.

If you believe Steinbrenner wasn't a major influence in those veteran free agent signings you have a lot to learn. Cashman's work in the Yankees farm system over the years easily trumps anything Beinfest has done.

 

2003 was more Dombrowski's team than Beinfest's.

If you believe Steinbrenner wasn't a major influence in those veteran free agent signings you have a lot to learn. Cashman's work in the Yankees farm system over the years easily trumps anything Beinfest has done.

 

2003 was more Dombrowski's team than Beinfest's.

 

 

 

Beinfest did trade for Pierre.

Beinfest did add Conine and Urbina that year.

Dontrelle was Beinfest (Dontrelle...the guy that ended up being the sparkplug that year).

 

I'd say it was more 50/50 if anything.

 

And I don't feel like arguing anymore because it's all basically a matter of opinion at this point with the Beinfest / Cashman thing. I respect your opinion on it though. I do believe Steinbrenner had a lot to do with it, but Steinbrenner for example also asked Cashman to get Vladimir Guerreo, and he opted for the older Gary Sheffield (the year Sheff signed with them). I don't know...I just haven't seen Cashman do much. My dad is a Yankees fan too, and he doesn't like him, at all.

If you believe Steinbrenner wasn't a major influence in those veteran free agent signings you have a lot to learn. Cashman's work in the Yankees farm system over the years easily trumps anything Beinfest has done.

 

2003 was more Dombrowski's team than Beinfest's.

 

 

 

Beinfest did trade for Pierre.

Beinfest did add Conine and Urbina that year.

Dontrelle was Beinfest (Dontrelle...the guy that ended up being the sparkplug that year).

 

I'd say it was more 50/50 if anything.

 

And I don't feel like arguing anymore because it's all basically a matter of opinion at this point with the Beinfest / Cashman thing. I respect your opinion on it though. I do believe Steinbrenner had a lot to do with it, but Steinbrenner for example also asked Cashman to get Vladimir Guerreo, and he opted for the older Gary Sheffield (the year Sheff signed with them). I don't know...I just haven't seen Cashman do much. My dad is a Yankees fan too, and he doesn't like him, at all.

 

Im pretty much done too, but 4/25 is not 50/50 by any means... theoretically, we could have had Preston Wilson who would have netted us more offense than Pierre. (OPS+ of 101, vs Pierre's 94, and that's using Preston's lower 2002 total and Pierre's higher 2003 total). So realistically, he hurt our offense with the "upgrade" to Pierre. Conine and Urbina were solid for depth purposes and Dontrelle was, well Dontrelle, the most positive acquisition.

You guys are forgetting Pudge.

 

The '03 versions of Pudge + DTrain + Pierre was better than the '03 versions of CJ + Clement + Preston but even so Dave deserves most of the credit although Admin gets some credit as well.