If you believe Steinbrenner wasn't a major influence in those veteran free agent signings you have a lot to learn. Cashman's work in the Yankees farm system over the years easily trumps anything Beinfest has done.

 

2003 was more Dombrowski's team than Beinfest's.

 

 

 

Beinfest did trade for Pierre.

Beinfest did add Conine and Urbina that year.

Dontrelle was Beinfest (Dontrelle...the guy that ended up being the sparkplug that year).

 

I'd say it was more 50/50 if anything.

 

And I don't feel like arguing anymore because it's all basically a matter of opinion at this point with the Beinfest / Cashman thing. I respect your opinion on it though. I do believe Steinbrenner had a lot to do with it, but Steinbrenner for example also asked Cashman to get Vladimir Guerreo, and he opted for the older Gary Sheffield (the year Sheff signed with them). I don't know...I just haven't seen Cashman do much. My dad is a Yankees fan too, and he doesn't like him, at all.

 

Im pretty much done too, but 4/25 is not 50/50 by any means... theoretically, we could have had Preston Wilson who would have netted us more offense than Pierre. (OPS+ of 101, vs Pierre's 94, and that's using Preston's lower 2002 total and Pierre's higher 2003 total). So realistically, he hurt our offense with the "upgrade" to Pierre. Conine and Urbina were solid for depth purposes and Dontrelle was, well Dontrelle, the most positive acquisition.

 

 

 

I only mentioned 4, but it was more than that. Pudge was also a Beinfest acquisition. Veterans Carl Pavano and Mark Redman (who did well that year) were Beinfest also.

 

Encarnacion, I believe was Beinfest, as well.

Then you gotta add some key relievers like Chad Fox, who he acquired in mid-season, and was the Marlins man in middle relief.

 

That's at least double digit players for Beinfest, as well, on the 25 man roster. So yeah...it's 50/50, or at least close to it.

 

Also...this is just a question, as I am not sure. Miguel Cabrera...was he Beinfest or DD? I know Cabrera was drafted really young, and I'm guessing it was Dombrowski, but I'm not 100 % sure.

You guys are forgetting Pudge.

 

The '03 versions of Pudge + DTrain + Pierre was better than the '03 versions of CJ + Clement + Preston but even so Dave deserves most of the credit although Admin gets some credit as well.

 

First of all, obviously Rodriguez was better than Charles Johnson that's... yeah

Secondly, Pierre was worse than Preston...

Thirdly, Matt Clement wasn't even on our team in 2002, which is the comparison I assume you're making... but Dontrelle did replace Justin Wayne in our rotation, and even a league average pitcher would have given us a huge boost.

 

I'm not saying Beinfest didn't have a hand in that team, but really he did some accent work on it, that was Dombrowski's team, by and long and on the whole...

You guys are forgetting Pudge.

 

The '03 versions of Pudge + DTrain + Pierre was better than the '03 versions of CJ + Clement + Preston but even so Dave deserves most of the credit although Admin gets some credit as well.

 

First of all, obviously Rodriguez was better than Charles Johnson that's... yeah

Secondly, Pierre was worse than Preston...

Thirdly, Matt Clement wasn't even on our team in 2002, which is the comparison I assume you're making... but Dontrelle did replace Justin Wayne in our rotation, and even a league average pitcher would have given us a huge boost.

 

I'm not saying Beinfest didn't have a hand in that team, but really he did some accent work on it, that was Dombrowski's team, by and long and on the whole...

 

Clement was traded for Dontrelle.

I disagree with the Pierre/Wilson comment. They were both different types of players, but Pierre was key to the Marlins success in '03. When he got on base, or Castillo got on base...pitchers had to pay attention.

 

What has Preston Wilson ever done for anyone to say he was better than Pierre? Don't get me wrong...Preston always had the tools, but the only consistency in him was the fact that he struck out as many times as Dan Uggla (if not more).

 

I always thought Preston would've ended up being better than what he turned out to be. That wasn't the case.

 

And as I said, I'm not sure the Marlins even make the playoffs without Pierre in '03. And as good as getting Pierre was, the trade Beinfest made with the Cubs getting rid of Pierre, was even further, a case of highway robbery for Mr.Beinfest. Listen, you might not want to call Beinfest the best (he's not, I overexaggerated)...but complaining about Admin Beinfest...I don't think it's appropriate. As you said, he's at least Top 10.

I only mentioned 4, but it was more than that. Pudge was also a Beinfest acquisition. Veterans Carl Pavano and Mark Redman (who did well that year) were Beinfest also.

 

Encarnacion, I believe was Beinfest, as well.

Then you gotta add some key relievers like Chad Fox, who he acquired in mid-season, and was the Marlins man in middle relief.

 

That's at least double digit players for Beinfest, as well, on the 25 man roster. So yeah...it's 50/50, or at least close to it.

 

Also...this is just a question, as I am not sure. Miguel Cabrera...was he Beinfest or DD? I know Cabrera was drafted really young, and I'm guessing it was Dombrowski, but I'm not 100 % sure.

 

Miguel was a product of Dombrowski

 

Pavano was brought in to be a "league average" pitcher, as was Mark Redman, Beinfest (and I hate to use this term) got lucky with them. He never would have expected Pavano to turn into the high quality starter he turned into. Redman was nothing special, so it's very hard for me to give kudos to Beinfest for that.

 

Chad Fox has really only had two good years in his career... 2003 with us and 2001 with Milwaukee. So, again, (I hate to say it) Beinfest got a little lucky, he didn't plan on Chad Fox going all Dennis Eckersly on us.

 

So really, the only solid additions he made to the 2003 team were Pudge, Fox and Pavano. Conine was acquired down the stretch, but it's hard to argue that any competent GM wouldn't have gone out an acquired a Jeff Conine and/or Urbina. (Because Urbina was being actively shopped, IIRC)... But yeah, how about the ways in which he signed Todd Hollandsworthless, or Juan Pierre and actually weakened the lineup?

 

Im not discounting everything he did, it's just that, as a whole, he had a neutral to slightly above average impact on the team, compared to what would have been "league average production" players. The other guys had career years (Pavano, Fox, Redman) Pavano being the only one to carry it over to the next year... and then he high-tailed it out. And need I remind you that (like most Marlins trades) we obtained the services of Pavano because it was a salary dump move to rid ourselves of Cliff Floyd. Beinfest saw "innings eater" when he picked up Pavano.

I don't know how anyone could compare Wilson and Pierre with a straight face, their games are so much different. It's like trying to compare David Ortiz to Ricky Henderson.

 

But since Juan Pierre was so instrumental in their WS championship run and was voted by the BWAA their Most Valuable Player, the nod for me has to go to JP. To me, saying he was worse than Wilson in 2003 is at minimum debatable and please don't try to explain to me why I'm wrong because we're all allowed to have our own opinions and I respect yours.

You guys are forgetting Pudge.

 

The '03 versions of Pudge + DTrain + Pierre was better than the '03 versions of CJ + Clement + Preston but even so Dave deserves most of the credit although Admin gets some credit as well.

 

First of all, obviously Rodriguez was better than Charles Johnson that's... yeah

Secondly, Pierre was worse than Preston...

Thirdly, Matt Clement wasn't even on our team in 2002, which is the comparison I assume you're making... but Dontrelle did replace Justin Wayne in our rotation, and even a league average pitcher would have given us a huge boost.

 

I'm not saying Beinfest didn't have a hand in that team, but really he did some accent work on it, that was Dombrowski's team, by and long and on the whole...

 

Clement was traded for Dontrelle.

 

Before the 2002 season

 

March 27, 2002: Traded by the Chicago Cubs with Jose Cueto (minors), Ryan Jorgensen, and Julian Tavarez to the Florida Marlins for Antonio Alfonseca and Matt Clement.

I only mentioned 4, but it was more than that. Pudge was also a Beinfest acquisition. Veterans Carl Pavano and Mark Redman (who did well that year) were Beinfest also.

 

Encarnacion, I believe was Beinfest, as well.

Then you gotta add some key relievers like Chad Fox, who he acquired in mid-season, and was the Marlins man in middle relief.

 

That's at least double digit players for Beinfest, as well, on the 25 man roster. So yeah...it's 50/50, or at least close to it.

 

Also...this is just a question, as I am not sure. Miguel Cabrera...was he Beinfest or DD? I know Cabrera was drafted really young, and I'm guessing it was Dombrowski, but I'm not 100 % sure.

 

Miguel was a product of Dombrowski

 

Pavano was brought in to be a "league average" pitcher, as was Mark Redman, Beinfest (and I hate to use this term) got lucky with them. He never would have expected Pavano to turn into the high quality starter he turned into. Redman was nothing special, so it's very hard for me to give kudos to Beinfest for that.

 

Chad Fox has really only had two good years in his career... 2003 with us and 2001 with Milwaukee. So, again, (I hate to say it) Beinfest got a little lucky, he didn't plan on Chad Fox going all Dennis Eckersly on us.

 

So really, the only solid additions he made to the 2003 team were Pudge, Fox and Pavano. Conine was acquired down the stretch, but it's hard to argue that any competent GM wouldn't have gone out an acquired a Jeff Conine and/or Urbina. (Because Urbina was being actively shopped, IIRC)... But yeah, how about the ways in which he signed Todd Hollandsworthless, or Juan Pierre and actually weakened the lineup?

 

Im not discounting everything he did, it's just that, as a whole, he had a neutral to slightly above average impact on the team, compared to what would have been "league average production" players. The other guys had career years (Pavano, Fox, Redman) Pavano being the only one to carry it over to the next year... and then he high-tailed it out. And need I remind you that (like most Marlins trades) we obtained the services of Pavano because it was a salary dump move to rid ourselves of Cliff Floyd. Beinfest saw "innings eater" when he picked up Pavano.

 

 

Hollandsworth sucked...although he did have some key pinch-hits along with Mordecai in the playoffs.

 

What I don't get now...is you dissing Juan Pierre saying he "weakened our lineup..." along with Hollandsworth.

I don't know how anyone could compare Wilson and Pierre with a straight face, their games are so much different. It's like trying to compare David Ortiz to Ricky Henderson.

 

But since Juan Pierre was so instrumental in their WS championship run and was voted by the BWAA their Most Valuable Player, the nod for me has to go to JP. To me, saying he was worse than Wilson in 2003 is at minimum debatable and please don't try to explain to me why I'm wrong because we're all allowed to have our own opinions and I respect yours.

 

I'm not one to attack other people's opinions, just explain and develop my own. But to be fair... is the BBWAA always right? Did they not vote Terry Pendleton MVP of the entire NL one year?

 

Instrumental is a subjective argument... and just using the quantifiable stuff I do have, Wilson contributed more offensively (and at least as much defensively) to the team as Pierre did. This is why I made that comparison, because the numbers back me up. Did I like Pierre, yeah, sure... Did Wilson frustrate me, yeah sure... but he provided more offense than Pierre. I've never been a fan of this "makes the pitcher pay attention to him" thing... and that'll never hold any weight with an argument with me.

The date of the trade is irrelevant.

I don't know how anyone could compare Wilson and Pierre with a straight face, their games are so much different. It's like trying to compare David Ortiz to Ricky Henderson.

 

But since Juan Pierre was so instrumental in their WS championship run and was voted by the BWAA their Most Valuable Player, the nod for me has to go to JP. To me, saying he was worse than Wilson in 2003 is at minimum debatable and please don't try to explain to me why I'm wrong because we're all allowed to have our own opinions and I respect yours.

 

I'm not one to attack other people's opinions, just explain and develop my own. But to be fair... is the BBWAA always right? Did they not vote Terry Pendleton MVP of the entire NL one year?

 

Instrumental is a subjective argument... and just using the quantifiable stuff I do have, Wilson contributed more offensively (and at least as much defensively) to the team as Pierre did. This is why I made that comparison, because the numbers back me up. Did I like Pierre, yeah, sure... Did Wilson frustrate me, yeah sure... but he provided more offense than Pierre. I've never been a fan of this "makes the pitcher pay attention to him" thing... and that'll never hold any weight with an argument with me.

 

 

They're different ballplayers.

Pierre was a great leadoff hitter.

P.Wilson was a guy who had 5 tool potential...although, he didn't really live up to it, fully...ever.

I don't know how anyone could compare Wilson and Pierre with a straight face, their games are so much different. It's like trying to compare David Ortiz to Ricky Henderson.

I'd take Ricky every time.

 

"If you could split him in two, you'd have two Hall of Famers."

"If you could split him in two, you'd have two Hall of Famers."

 

lolololololololololol

 

I literally laughed out loud :thumbup

Btw, is it really fair to say Beinfest got "lucky" with his players in '03?

 

Isn't that part of being a good GM...listening and trusting your scouts, and making a move?

 

You could easily say the same thing for every player he's gotten...Kevin Gregg, Justin Miller, etc., etc. At what point is it just making good moves? "Luck" doesn't happen too often. At some point, it just becomes a good eye for talent.

 

Remember...Theo Epstein got lucky with David Ortiz, as well. Don't see anything wrong with getting "lucky" if that's the case.

Ok I might make a mistake here so please correct me.

 

Dombrowski

Lowell

Lee

Castillo

Gonzalez

Cabrera

Beckett

Penny

 

Beinfest

Rodriguez

Hollandsworth (this was a bad pickup all things considered)

Pierre

Conine

Urbina

Encarnacion

Willis

Redman

Pavano

 

 

These are the key players. While I agree that Pierre was an important part of the offense, I feel that Lee and Lowell were the most impactful players. Remember Lowell was even leading the NL in home runs for quite some time. Dombrowski definitely has his name on the offense but I would call the pitching a wash.

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

First off, they don't have 3 DHs, they have 2 LFers. It's not that they have at least 1 of those guys on the bench, they have to have at MOST one of those guys on the bench, because if not, you have an empty space in the outfield.

 

I'll let someone else take care of the rest of your argument, because I could care less. I just don't like people misrepresenting facts.

2 "LF'ers."

1 with no arm (Damon), and 1 who's mediocre all around defensively (Matsui).

A LEFT FIELDER WITH A WEAK ARM?! NO WAY!

 

For your education, alot of LFs have weak arms. That's why they play left and not right.

He has 3 DH's on the team (Damon, Matsui, Giambi). He has at least 1 of those 3 guys on the bench every night earning at least 10+ mill. 10+ mill that he could've invested on a quality pitcher (or 2) to give him innings, knowing he had 2 unproven rookies in his starting rotation this year.

First off, they don't have 3 DHs, they have 2 LFers. It's not that they have at least 1 of those guys on the bench, they have to have at MOST one of those guys on the bench, because if not, you have an empty space in the outfield.

 

I'll let someone else take care of the rest of your argument, because I could care less. I just don't like people misrepresenting facts.

2 "LF'ers."

1 with no arm (Damon), and 1 who's mediocre all around defensively (Matsui).

A LEFT FIELDER WITH A WEAK ARM?! NO WAY!

 

For your education, alot of LFs have weak arms. That's why they play left and not right.

 

...and with that said, Johnny Damon has NO ARM...Luis Gonzalez, Juan Pierre, and Damon should have a competition. Seriously, it would be funny.

 

Not to mention, Damon hasn't been the same hitter since leaving Boston, either. Perhaps, he's washed up. I know Giambi is.

The platoon sucks and does not work. Both catchers suck, but at least stick with one guy and allow him to get into some sort of groove out there at the plate and behind it.

Considering that catchers normally wear down at the end of a season, it would actually be better to keep the platoon simply to keep them fresh. You think they suck now, wait to see how much one sucks when his knees are giving out.

Its fine giving them days off once in a while, but to constantly rotate them is ridiculous.