Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likelyhood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

Yes we are. But atleast I didn't start my repetition with "as I said".

Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likely hood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

 

Well you certainly are. OK last analogy and I'm done. You buy a scratchoff for 1 dollar, and you win 2 dollars. You say to yourself, "OK, I'm going to keep buying scratchoffs to make all my money!" I tell you law of averages will bite you in the ass. You say, "Its not a sure thing!". Make sense yet?

Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likely hood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

 

Well you certainly are. OK last analogy and I'm done. You buy a scratchoff for 1 dollar, and you win 2 dollars. You say to yourself, "OK, I'm going to keep buying scratchoffs to make all my money!" I tell you law of averages will bite you in the ass. You say, "Its not a sure thing!". Make sense yet?

 

 

No, because once I see that Im in trouble (Im not winning anymore), Im going to stop buying scratchoffs. Make sense?

WHIP has value but it's a flawed stat and some people bank too much on it. In WHIP a home run allowed is the same as a walk. That's ridiculous. I personally would look at OPS allowed before lookign at WHIP but unfortunately OPS allowed is not that easy to find. His OPS allowed is .762 and that's not good. If his OPS allowed stays around there his ERA will balloon to over 4.00 and that's not "ace" like. In other words, if he continues pitching the way he has his ERA will balloon to over 4.00.

WHIP has value but it's a flawed stat and some people bank too much on it. In WHIP a home run allowed is the same as a walk. That's ridiculous. I personally would look at OPS allowed before lookign at WHIP but unfortunately OPS allowed is not that easy to find. His OPS allowed is .762 and that's not good. If his OPS allowed stays around there his ERA will balloon to over 4.00 and that's not "ace" like. In other words, if he continues pitching the way he has his ERA will balloon to over 4.00.

 

Poloa... you do realize that I've actually made that EXACT same argument using WHIP, with the exact same conclusion... their counter argument is that it doesn't matter... they don't believe these high offensive rates can catch up to JJ

WHIP has value but it's a flawed stat and some people bank too much on it. In WHIP a home run allowed is the same as a walk. That's ridiculous. I personally would look at OPS allowed before lookign at WHIP but unfortunately OPS allowed is not that easy to find. His OPS allowed is .762 and that's not good. If his OPS allowed stays around there his ERA will balloon to over 4.00 and that's not "ace" like. In other words, if he continues pitching the way he has his ERA will balloon to over 4.00.

 

Poloa... you do realize that I've actually made that EXACT same argument using WHIP, with the exact same conclusion... their counter argument is that it doesn't matter... they don't believe these high offensive rates can catch up to JJ

 

 

I never said it didn't matter at all, I just said that WHIP is not nearly as important as ERA.

I never said it didn't matter at all, I just said that WHIP is not nearly as important as ERA.

 

And a pitchers w/l > ERA > WHIP?

Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likely hood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

 

Well you certainly are. OK last analogy and I'm done. You buy a scratchoff for 1 dollar, and you win 2 dollars. You say to yourself, "OK, I'm going to keep buying scratchoffs to make all my money!" I tell you law of averages will bite you in the ass. You say, "Its not a sure thing!". Make sense yet?

 

 

No, because once I see that Im in trouble (Im not winning anymore), Im going to stop buying scratchoffs. Make sense?

 

So if JJ gives up 5 runs in his next start, you will argue that he needs to lower his WHIP? Even though he should've been trying to lower it the whole time? You're playing the result. Your logic is totally backwards, and I'm done.

I never said it didn't matter at all, I just said that WHIP is not nearly as important as ERA.

 

And a pitchers w/l > ERA > WHIP?

 

 

Actually, I think its:

 

ERA > W/L > WHIP.

 

W/L ratio depends on run support, which is higher for some pitchers.

Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likely hood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

 

Well you certainly are. OK last analogy and I'm done. You buy a scratchoff for 1 dollar, and you win 2 dollars. You say to yourself, "OK, I'm going to keep buying scratchoffs to make all my money!" I tell you law of averages will bite you in the ass. You say, "Its not a sure thing!". Make sense yet?

 

 

No, because once I see that Im in trouble (Im not winning anymore), Im going to stop buying scratchoffs. Make sense?

 

So if JJ gives up 5 runs in his next start, you will argue that he needs to lower his WHIP? Even though he should've been trying to lower it the whole time? You're playing the result. Your logic is totally backwards, and I'm done.

 

 

It might sound crazy, but yes.

Just an example for everyone saying high WHIP is ok. Lets say WHIP is the mileage on your car, and ERA is your car's engine. Now lets say that the average guy changes his oil every 3 to 5 thousand miles. His engine (or ERA) runs fine. Now Joe Schmoe (or JJ if you will) only changes his oil (WHIP) every 10 thousand miles. His engine is still running fine, but the chances are much higher he will have engine problems.

 

That is the point. Sooner or later the high WHIP, or mileage, will catch up to Josh, and his engine's performance, or ERA, will be affected. If that doesn't make sense to you, all hope is lost.

 

The answer is to change the oil more often, or in Josh's case, lower his WHIP. Not to keep driving with high mileage, or high WHIP, and ruin your engine, or ERA.

 

 

It makes sense to me, but (using the analogy), it is not a sure thing that JJ would have engine problems. I would rather take the risk. That is just how I feel.

 

So you are also the type of guy that would drive his car over 10k miles without changing his oil. I don't know, doesn't sound smart to me. Not that its anything that JJ has a choice over anyways, he's going to pitch as well as he can, we can only hope as fans that his WHIP will lower, which will lead to less worry of runs being scored. If it stays high, just face it, law of averages is going to bite him in the ass. You don't win all the time.

 

 

As I said, its not a sure thing.

Much higher in likely hood than his ERA staying this low with a WHIP that high.

 

 

A we just repeating the same thing now?

 

Well you certainly are. OK last analogy and I'm done. You buy a scratchoff for 1 dollar, and you win 2 dollars. You say to yourself, "OK, I'm going to keep buying scratchoffs to make all my money!" I tell you law of averages will bite you in the ass. You say, "Its not a sure thing!". Make sense yet?

 

 

No, because once I see that Im in trouble (Im not winning anymore), Im going to stop buying scratchoffs. Make sense?

 

So if JJ gives up 5 runs in his next start, you will argue that he needs to lower his WHIP? Even though he should've been trying to lower it the whole time? You're playing the result. Your logic is totally backwards, and I'm done.

 

 

It might sound crazy, but yes.

 

If all you're interested in doing is playing the result, why bother having a baseball conversation about the future, such as what JJ will do? You're clearly not interested in making realistic projections.

If all you're interested in doing is playing the result, why bother having a baseball conversation about the future, such as what JJ will do? You're clearly not interested in making realistic projections.

 

 

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

 

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

 

PWG was right, I don't know why I picked up where he left off.

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

 

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

 

PWG was right, I don't know why I picked up where he left off.

 

 

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

 

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

 

PWG was right, I don't know why I picked up where he left off.

 

 

 

My turn for one more analogy that will be wasted!

 

Let's say there was a cough going around and if you coughed 1.4 times a minute you'd get extremely sick to the point of hospitalization... but if you coughed 1.2 times a minute you'll be alright... now... you time your coughs, and you get about 1.4 coughs/minute... but you still feel fine... do you go buy the medicine that'll prevent hospitalization, or do you just wait for it to happen?

 

 

Peace!

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

 

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

 

PWG was right, I don't know why I picked up where he left off.

 

 

 

My turn for one more analogy that will be wasted!

 

Let's say there was a cough going around and if you coughed 1.4 times a minute you'd get extremely sick to the point of hospitalization... but if you coughed 1.2 times a minute you'll be alright... now... you time your coughs, and you get about 1.4 coughs/minute... but you still feel fine... do you go buy the medicine that'll prevent hospitalization, or do you just wait for it to happen?

 

 

Peace!

 

LOL even I can answer this, if I haven't gotten sick yet, I'll be fine! :thumbup

 

Face it, you can't even trick them into logic :lol

Im interested in taking it one day at a time.

 

:banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead

 

PWG was right, I don't know why I picked up where he left off.

 

 

 

My turn for one more analogy that will be wasted!

 

Let's say there was a cough going around and if you coughed 1.4 times a minute you'd get extremely sick to the point of hospitalization... but if you coughed 1.2 times a minute you'll be alright... now... you time your coughs, and you get about 1.4 coughs/minute... but you still feel fine... do you go buy the medicine that'll prevent hospitalization, or do you just wait for it to happen?

 

 

Peace!

 

LOL even I can answer this, if I haven't gotten sick yet, I'll be fine! :thumbup

 

Face it, you can't even trick them into logic :lol

 

 

No response.

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

 

This topic was over...please dont bring it back to life.

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

You know I'm tempted to try, but after the last one, I'm done. I'll let someone else bother, if they dare.

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

 

This topic was over...please dont bring it back to life.

 

 

i'm sorry, i actually was the one to start this argument, i went out for an hour and a half and just wanted to give a rebuttle

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

This conversation is still going on because it's about processes vs outcomes... you know what Wins and Losses are important, but guess what... runs decide wins and losses and ERA dictates runs and WHIP dictates ERA... so... follow the causal chain with me here... WHIP is DIRECTLY related to wins and losses...

 

The reason it's being debated... and I keep repeating this ... HIGH WHIPS ARE BAD... but people keep arguing against it... you can throw as many Jim Mora and Herm Edwards and Vince Lombardi quotes at me all you want, but Im more concerned with the process of winning, I want to know if a pitcher is really doing good or if he's lucky... if he's just getting lucky, I know to expect some bad luck soon... if he's playing well, I can expect that to continue...

 

And, if JJ gave up 15 walks and 20 hits, I promise you you would care, so would everyone, because that would mean a) something's seriously wrong with JJ and b) Fredi was stupid enough to leave him in for that... so no, you would care, and if he goes out his next start and goes 3 innings and gives up 8 runs, or has any other comparably bad start, everyone will be commenting about it...

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

 

This topic was over...please dont bring it back to life.

 

 

i'm sorry, i actually was the one to start this argument, i went out for an hour and a half and just wanted to give a rebuttle

 

I know I said I'd stop, but urgh, this annoys me... you didn't rebut anything! All you did was say the same exact thing you said about 2 pages ago in this thread, completely ignoring everything that was said afterwards.

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

This conversation is still going on because it's about processes vs outcomes... you know what Wins and Losses are important, but guess what... runs decide wins and losses and ERA dictates runs and WHIP dictates ERA... so... follow the causal chain with me here... WHIP is DIRECTLY related to wins and losses...

 

The reason it's being debated... and I keep repeating this ... HIGH WHIPS ARE BAD... but people keep arguing against it... you can throw as many Jim Mora and Herm Edwards and Vince Lombardi quotes at me all you want, but Im more concerned with the process of winning, I want to know if a pitcher is really doing good or if he's lucky... if he's just getting lucky, I know to expect some bad luck soon... if he's playing well, I can expect that to continue...

 

And, if JJ gave up 15 walks and 20 hits, I promise you you would care, so would everyone, because that would mean a) something's seriously wrong with JJ and b) Fredi was stupid enough to leave him in for that... so no, you would care, and if he goes out his next start and goes 3 innings and gives up 8 runs, or has any other comparably bad start, everyone will be commenting about it...

 

 

I say we should make a bet on the outcome of JJ's next start... :mischief

why the hell is this conversation still going on? this is the same as "2 out of 3 just isn't enough" thread. People have different views on it. Yes the higher the WHIP the better chance people have of scoring, of course i would love for JJ to lower his WHIP, BUT he is 6-0, Wins and Losses is all that matters to me, I don't care if he gives up 15 walks with 20 hits, as long as we win the game.

 

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

 

I swear i will have to put this as my sig to get people to relize the only important stat is wins and losses

 

 

This topic was over...please dont bring it back to life.

 

 

i'm sorry, i actually was the one to start this argument, i went out for an hour and a half and just wanted to give a rebuttle

 

I know I said I'd stop, but urgh, this annoys me... you didn't rebut anything! All you did was say the same exact thing you said about 2 pages ago in this thread, completely ignoring everything that was said afterwards.

 

 

sorry, calm down people. I left the argument 2 pages ago, so i guess i started from where i left off, sorry dude. Lay off, if u all want to attack me i will just go and do this

 

:banghead