He is seeing a lot more pitches out of the strikezone (58.3% v.s. 48.9%). However, the ML average for pitches in the strike zone is (drum roll) 48.9%. So he's seeing the average amount of strikes, and last year he saw a lot more strikes than average. In other words, he's going to be seeing 48.9% strikes going forward, not near-60%.

Which is going to take time to adjust to. And that number would decrease a lot slower if he were hitting near the top of the order where he's hit for the bulk of his baseball career.

not really. it'd barely be different. hitting 8th hasn't done much.

not really. it'd barely be different. hitting 8th hasn't done much.

How would it barely be different? You don't think opposing pitchers are more obliged to throw good pitches to a leadoff man rather than the guy that hits before the pitcher?

Why throw good pitches to a guy you can get out?

 

Good hitters will get better pitches hitting 2nd instead of 8th.

 

An easy out is an easy out though. The last thing you'd want to do with a guy like maybin is make a "good" pitch when he's infront of someone worth whiled, since that'd then give him the possibility of getting on base (as, with his speed, high chance anything in play is a base hti).

Why throw good pitches to a guy you can get out?

 

Good hitters will get better pitches hitting 2nd instead of 8th.

 

An easy out is an easy out though.

And he wouldn't be an easy out if we threw him into an unnatural spot in the lineup, right before the pitcher. In that spot, you're encouraged to swing at anything close.

The kid is just lost at the plate right now, and I don't think leaving him up here will help him or his career... If they really care about developing him they would demote him because he's simply over matched in the majors right now, and his confidence is shot because of it...

not really. it'd barely be different. hitting 8th hasn't done much.

How would it barely be different? You don't think opposing pitchers are more obliged to throw good pitches to a leadoff man rather than the guy that hits before the pitcher?

 

Or maybe he can take a walk of the pitches are junk?

not really. it'd barely be different. hitting 8th hasn't done much.

How would it barely be different? You don't think opposing pitchers are more obliged to throw good pitches to a leadoff man rather than the guy that hits before the pitcher?

 

Or maybe he can take a walk of the pitches are junk?

Then the pitcher could end the inning. Either way, he doesn't do anything productive. He's got a better chance of scoring if he swings for the fences with the pitcher behind him.

not really. it'd barely be different. hitting 8th hasn't done much.

How would it barely be different? You don't think opposing pitchers are more obliged to throw good pitches to a leadoff man rather than the guy that hits before the pitcher?

 

Or maybe he can take a walk of the pitches are junk?

Then the pitcher could end the inning. Either way, he doesn't do anything productive. He's got a better chance of scoring if he swings for the fences with the pitcher behind him.

 

:lol

Nice productive response. :thumbup

The point is you're grasping for straws

The point is you're grasping for straws

Not really.

 

The point is he's swinging more freely at an irrelevant spot in the lineup after spending his entire career at the top of the order. Does that mean if you put him back in the leadoff spot that he's going to OBP .400 immediately? No. But sending him down in order to get Coghlan, who hasn't caught a fly ball since he was 12, into the lineup without having to move Bonifacio is not the answer.

 

By the way, how often has Bonifacio seen a pitch in the zone this year? I'm thinking its more than Maybin yet he's OPSing .594. Guess that "year of seasoning" in AAA didn't do much for him, eh?

he's not swinging "more freely", he's always had this problem. Hitting higher in the order would not let him see more balls in the strike zone; if that were true, Bonifacio would be seeing more strikes, but he's actually below league average of balls int he strike zone. The % of balls he's swung out of the zone is actually lower this year than his career numbers, that alone should say he's not swinging more freely. The "Batting 8th" thing is just an made up excuse, it's not an actual reason. Nobody is argueing that bonifacio isn't struggling just as bad, the point is is that Maybin is the better prospect. He can learn in the minor leagues. We do not want to break him, which may happen if he stays up here and continues to be like this. Again, we don't want to produce Wily Mo Penas.

he's not swinging "more freely", he's always had this problem. Hitting higher in the order would not let him see more balls in the strike zone; if that were true, Bonifacio would be seeing more strikes, but he's actually below league average of balls int he strike zone. The % of balls he's swung out of the zone is actually lower this year than his career numbers, that alone should say he's not swinging more freely. The "Batting 8th" thing is just an made up excuse, it's not an actual reason. Nobody is argueing that bonifacio isn't struggling just as bad, the point is is that Maybin is the better prospect. He can learn in the minor leagues. We do not want to break him, which may happen if he stays up here and continues to be like this. Again, we don't want to produce Wily Mo Penas.

The only reason for that is probably because he sees two fastballs high and out of the zone per AB and still swings at them. I guess I shouldn't have asked that since he's a terrible example because he can't lay off that pitch and teams have picked up on it.

 

And if he stays up here in the eight spot, we have a better shot at "breaking him" because he already has a problem with Ks as you eluded to and is in a spot where he's encouraged to swing more freely. If that's going to be the case because we for some reason have a thing for guys who OPS .594 in the leadoff spot, then by all means, I agree, send him down.

And maybin would be attacked like that regardless of where he is.

And regarding your edit with the bonifacio thing, you really don't understand about not breaking real prospects do you?

 

I mean, Sean West/Graham Taylor this year alone should be an apt enough example.

And regarding your edit with the bonifacio thing, you really don't understand about not breaking real prospects do you?

 

I mean, Sean West/Graham Taylor this year alone should be an apt enough example.

Gah, you posted before I was done typing. See the edit on my last post.

 

By the way, in regards to your "seasoning in AAA" comment a while ago, how many of our prospects have skipped AAA over the past couple of years because of Albuquerque but have still succeeded in the major leagues? For top prospects such as Maybin, it's not needed.

For one, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bonifacio has played in AAA, Maybin has not. Is that wrong?

 

I've also said before I wanted bonifacio in AAA. But given the choice between Maybin and Bonifacio, how can you seriously choose that you'd rather have Bonifacio in the minors to develop rather than Maybin? One is a guy who's potential is fringe average, the other is a guy who could be a stud, why would you rather break Maybin?

 

Regarding saying AAA is not needed

 

It might not be needed.

 

But it also could be needed.

 

Here was a nice post by Flum before

 

Top 30 prospects

 

1. David Price: Yes (MLB)

2. Matt Wieters: Yes (MLB)

3. Travis Snider: Yes (MLB)

4. Trevor Cahill: No (MLB)

5. Chris Tillman: Yes (MLB)

6. Cameron Maybin: No (MLB)

7. Colby Rasmus: Yes (MLB)

8. Brett Anderson: No (MLB)

9. Jason Heyward: No (A+)

10. Dexter Fowler: No (MLB)

11. Madison Bumgarner: No (A+)

12. Mike Moustakas: No (A+)

13. Andrew McCutchen: Yes (AAA)

14. Tommy Hanson: Yes (AAA)

15. Matt LaPorta: Yes (AAA)

16. Tim Beckham: No (A)

17. Justin Smoak: No (AA)

18. Jarrod Parker: No (A+)

19. Neftali Feliz: Yes (AAA)

20. Rick Porcello: No (MLB -- skipped AA)

21. Wade Davis: Yes (AAA)

22. Gordon Beckham: No (AA)

23. Pedro Alvarez: No (A+)

24. Lars Anderson: No (AA)

25. Carlos Carrasco: Yes (AAA)

26. Fernando Martinez: Yes (AAA)

27. Matt Gamel: Yes (AAA)

28. Jeff Niemann: Yes (MLB)

29. Alcides Escobar: Yes (MLB)

30. Jeremy Hellickson: No (AA)

 

Twenty of the above thirty players have played above the AA level. Of those twenty players, fifteen of them have spent time in AAA. That means that 75% of baseball's top 30 prospects who have played at a more advanced level than AA, have played at the AAA level. Three of the players who skipped AAA play for the Marlins and the A's, two organizations known for rushing prospects to the majors. Another one is Rick Porcello, whose ungodly talent (and the Tigers lack of MLB pitching) caused him to even skip AA altogether on his path to the majors.

 

Maybin did not have a very impressive AA season. He is struggling mightly this year. Why are you stuck on that he has to be in the majors right now?

For one, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bonifacio has played in AAA, Maybin has not. Is that wrong?

 

I've also said before I wanted bonifacio in AAA. But given the choice between Maybin and Bonifacio, how can you seriously choose that you'd rather have Bonifacio in the minors to develop rather than Maybin? One is a guy who's potential is fringe average, the other is a guy who could be a stud, why would you rather break Maybin?

 

Regarding saying AAA is not needed

 

It might not be needed.

 

But it also could be needed.

 

Here was a nice post by Flum before

 

Top 30 prospects

 

1. David Price: Yes (MLB)

2. Matt Wieters: Yes (MLB)

3. Travis Snider: Yes (MLB)

4. Trevor Cahill: No (MLB)

5. Chris Tillman: Yes (MLB)

6. Cameron Maybin: No (MLB)

7. Colby Rasmus: Yes (MLB)

8. Brett Anderson: No (MLB)

9. Jason Heyward: No (A+)

10. Dexter Fowler: No (MLB)

11. Madison Bumgarner: No (A+)

12. Mike Moustakas: No (A+)

13. Andrew McCutchen: Yes (AAA)

14. Tommy Hanson: Yes (AAA)

15. Matt LaPorta: Yes (AAA)

16. Tim Beckham: No (A)

17. Justin Smoak: No (AA)

18. Jarrod Parker: No (A+)

19. Neftali Feliz: Yes (AAA)

20. Rick Porcello: No (MLB -- skipped AA)

21. Wade Davis: Yes (AAA)

22. Gordon Beckham: No (AA)

23. Pedro Alvarez: No (A+)

24. Lars Anderson: No (AA)

25. Carlos Carrasco: Yes (AAA)

26. Fernando Martinez: Yes (AAA)

27. Matt Gamel: Yes (AAA)

28. Jeff Niemann: Yes (MLB)

29. Alcides Escobar: Yes (MLB)

30. Jeremy Hellickson: No (AA)

 

Twenty of the above thirty players have played above the AA level. Of those twenty players, fifteen of them have spent time in AAA. That means that 75% of baseball's top 30 prospects who have played at a more advanced level than AA, have played at the AAA level. Three of the players who skipped AAA play for the Marlins and the A's, two organizations known for rushing prospects to the majors. Another one is Rick Porcello, whose ungodly talent (and the Tigers lack of MLB pitching) caused him to even skip AA altogether on his path to the majors.

 

Maybin did not have a very impressive AA season. He is struggling mightly this year. Why are you stuck on that he has to be in the majors right now?

Because I believe he could learn what he needs to learn at the major league level and contribute to the team this year. I don't think the things he needs to learn can necessarily be learned in AAA against minor league pitching. However, I also don't think that's going to happen as long as he's hitting eighth. He needs to learn what major league pitches look like (such as the difference between a major league slider and fastball). To do that, he needs to see good pitches at the right level. This is why I'd send Bonifacio down, start Coghlan and 3B, and bat him second behind Maybin. Hey, we're dealing with a .594 OPS in the leadoff spot right now. Maybin isn't going to be much worse.

 

If we made the move now and he was still having trouble at the break, then I'd agree that he could use that year in New Orleans. I just think its completely unfair and unnecessary to send him down right now.

 

I respect you and your opinion, Nny. I just disagree.

Maybin did not have a very impressive AA season. He is struggling mightly this year. Why are you stuck on that he has to be in the majors right now?

 

I know the strikeouts were high, but is an .831 ops not good enough at AA? I'm asking honestly...

 

 

actually I'm fine with ML or AAA either way. I'd just as soon get him at-bats vs major league pitching, but if it's determined he's just overmatched here for whatever reason or needs to work on his swing, sure...

 

 

Gotta say though, I'm not really thrilled with going to a Coghlan-Ross-Hermida outfield either, which even if we're lucky is no better than last season.

Maybin did not have a very impressive AA season. He is struggling mightly this year. Why are you stuck on that he has to be in the majors right now?

 

I know the strikeouts were high, but is an .831 ops not good enough at AA? I'm asking honestly...

 

.831 OPS is good, especially considering he was just 21 years old. It wasn't very impressive though. It wasn't, for example, what Hermida did, what Cabs did.

he's not swinging "more freely", he's always had this problem. Hitting higher in the order would not let him see more balls in the strike zone; if that were true, Bonifacio would be seeing more strikes, but he's actually below league average of balls int he strike zone. The % of balls he's swung out of the zone is actually lower this year than his career numbers, that alone should say he's not swinging more freely. The "Batting 8th" thing is just an made up excuse, it's not an actual reason. Nobody is argueing that bonifacio isn't struggling just as bad, the point is is that Maybin is the better prospect. He can learn in the minor leagues. We do not want to break him, which may happen if he stays up here and continues to be like this. Again, we don't want to produce Wily Mo Penas.

The only reason for that is probably because he sees two fastballs high and out of the zone per AB and still swings at them. I guess I shouldn't have asked that since he's a terrible example because he can't lay off that pitch and teams have picked up on it.

 

And if he stays up here in the eight spot, we have a better shot at "breaking him" because he already has a problem with Ks as you eluded to and is in a spot where he's encouraged to swing more freely. If that's going to be the case because we for some reason have a thing for guys who OPS .594 in the leadoff spot, then by all means, I agree, send him down.

 

Guess you haven't been watching the games.

 

From what I have read, they've been tinkering with Maybin's swing. Presley said something about he was swinging up, not his normal swing. To me he looks the same no matter where he is in the line up, so it's not that. He needs to get back to doing what got him here.

Add on to the last post. In keeping with the thread title, it's going to be interesting to see what happens come Tuesday. Maybin, Carroll, someone else, or trade. I can see the advantages and disadvantages with any of those options. I sure would like to be around Beinfest, Hill, Flemming, and Jennings the next few days to see what they are doing behind the scenes. Because the bottom line is, it dosen't matter what we think. They are the brain trust.

as you eluded to

 

Having no particularly incisive insight to contribute, I'll just observe that to 'elude' means to escape, to evade, to avoid being caught or capured. As in the usual activities of your average criminal.

 

To 'allude,' which was what was going on above, means to make an indirect reference, something which happens with great frequency here, although some postings do border on the criminal, intellectually speaking.

 

:geek

 

That said, I suspect Boni and Maybin are both going to be given months-long, perhaps season-long leashes, during which time they will be expected to adjust and learn how to generate some sort of at least semi-respectable production at the plate.

 

Boni gets his time up here because of his great glove, speed and positional flexibility, Maybin for his sheer major 5-tool potential and the probability that facing more AAA pitching isn't likely to do him much good. I hope they both work it out quickly.

 

Just my semi-literate opinion, I could easily be completely wrong and probably am.

For as bad as Maybin has been, there's at least 2 guys in our lineup who have been as bad (Cody's OBP is like .250 right now), and Boner's been absolutely abysmal since the first week (.405 OPS)

 

Now, if you want to make the development argument for sending Maybin down, or you want to say that Boner's versatility means he should stay up and Maybin should go down, that's fine.

 

But there's no legitimate argument to make that says keep Boner as a starter and a lead off hitter and send Maybin down.