Well, then you have to correlate what other players appear towards the bottom of those lists. Beltre and Kouzminhoff would be the only 3B I would imagine are as close to being as bad as Bonifacio is, although they both play much better D.

 

 

Well, I practically begged you to respond to some of my posts in the Gaby discussion and you ignored them.

 

I answered you in the Gaby thread. A short reiteration, I am not the only person that doubts his power potential. It has been a worry among scouts and people who make projections for a while. I even took his AB/HR count and multiplied it by the average # of ABs a MLB 1B will get and factored in the tougher hitting environment of Dolphin Stadium, much like his poor year at Jupiter. I think you are looking at a 5-10 HR guy with 35-40 2Bs in his peak years who might sneak 15 HR if he has some luck on the road on any given year. Basically I think you will get run of the mill 2B production out of your 1B if Gaby is made the starter and think he would be much better served with a platoon or if a Petersen or Cousins can get their bats going stick them in LF and put Morrison back at his natural 1B.

 

YOU FUDGED THE f***ING NUMBERS!!!!!!!! AND YOU f***ING IGNORED ME WHEN I CALLED YOU OUT ON IT.

 

You're basing his entire career on his worst performances and completely ignoring his best ones.

 

Gaby Sanchez has been the same age as Cousins at every stop and has put up better numbers everywhere with the exception of Jupiter. You're faith in Cousins and Petersen is pretty misguided. I have very little doubt Gaby will be better than them.

 

But this is beside the point. You completely ignored every point I brought up in my phone post. You do this a lot.

I didn't fudge any #s. 35 AB/HR is his career average. For an average # of at bats/year for a 1B(480) that would come to 13 HR/year, although I factored in the tougher hitters environment that is Dolphin Stadium. I didn't leave out his best years in any way. I didn't ignore you any more than you called me out on anything, the #s were legit. That is also the first time I have ever mentioned Cousins and Petersen.

 

DS isn't that tought for RH bats.

worst starting player, not 3B. and notice how I said "slight exaggeration"

 

hooked on phonics worked for me

 

 

 

Instead of just saying "slight exaggeration..." I'd love to see you prove me wrong. Name the player(s).

 

4 players have lower OPSs

 

right, and Bettancourt is actually not one of them. also, some of the players below EB in OPS (like Garrett Atkins)could still be better than him (sample size).

worst starting player, not 3B. and notice how I said "slight exaggeration"

 

hooked on phonics worked for me

 

 

 

Instead of just saying "slight exaggeration..." I'd love to see you prove me wrong. Name the player(s).

 

4 players have lower OPSs

 

right, and Bettancourt is actually not one of them. also, some of the players below EB in OPS (like Garrett Atkins)could still be better than him (sample size).

 

Atkins is bad and it's not just this year. He's a low 700 ops guy if you take away coors. I think both bonifacio and atkins are the result of small sample size, and I think Atkins would be better offensively in a netural park over a sustained amount of time, but not by much and the difference in defense would basically make them equal.

Ontop of their lower OPS, Atkins has been one of the worst defensive 3bs for several years running

 

Giles is just as bad defensively, and Chris young is below average aswell

 

 

 

Garrett Atkins has also proven to be an .800+ .OPS guy for several years running.

Brian Giles? Career .904 .OPS (.400 .OBP) including an .854 .OPS last year.

 

Chris Young is also a career .730 .OPS man, with power potential.

 

Bonifacio is worse than any of these 3 ballplayers.

Ontop of their lower OPS, Atkins has been one of the worst defensive 3bs for several years running

 

Giles is just as bad defensively, and Chris young is below average aswell

 

 

 

Garrett Atkins has also proven to be an .800+ .OPS guy for several years running.

Brian Giles? Career .904 .OPS (.400 .OBP) including an .854 .OPS last year.

 

Chris Young is also a career .730 .OPS man, with power potential.

 

Bonifacio is worse than any of these 3 ballplayers.

 

A 800 OPS guy in Coors is a 700 OPS guy anywhere else.

 

Brian Giles is nearly 40, wheels could certainly be coming off.

 

Chris Young has horrific strike out rates and a decline should not have been unexpected.

 

Brian Giles is about the only person in the list of those four that you can make a case of not being bad.

I'd only play Boner against lefties. He's hitting .313 against them and he's had pretty good success stealing against them. Ah forget it. I'd just bring up Gaby and have him play 1st and move Cantu to 3rd. Sure, Cantu isn't good defensivly at 3rd, but he's no worse at 3rd than Boner and I'm willing to bet Gaby would produce more than Boner offensively.

Does anybody else get the humor in seeing arguments on whether Bonifacio is the worst or 4th worst in the league?

I've heard that the other 4 NL East teams will give Loria 100K each if Bonifacio gets 600+ PAs.

J/K

 

Honestly, it's bizarre that he continues to start. His OPS is sickening. It's not like he is a veteran and they feel he will turn this season around. He will probably never be an everyday player and it's foolish to waste ABs on him possibly thinking he will develop.

 

I feel a big reason he won the 3B job out of spring training is for his defense. He does show + range/hands but, he makes too many throwing errors.

 

It's more than overdue that Helms starts 4-5 games/week. I feel Helms overall defense ability is par to Bonifacios. We pay Wes a lot, (almost 1 mil/year) use him. I would say send Emilio down but, we could use his versatility as long as Amezaga is hurt.

 

It sucks that Gaby had a slow spring training. If not, he starts at 1B and Jorge is at 3B. Obviously the best thing about that is Emilio would have less than 75 PAs.

Does anybody else get the humor in seeing arguments on whether Bonifacio is the worst or 4th worst in the league?

 

 

It's not defending Bonifacio but correcting misinformation.

I still think he's the worst, and there can certainly be an argument made for it. Garrett Atkins, Brian Giles, and Chris B. Young have all proven more with the bat, at some point, than Bonifacio ever has. I'd be willing to bet all 3 out .OPS Bonifacio by year's end.

 

Regardless, Bonifacio shouldn't be starting everyday, and he has no business, hitting 1 or 2 in the order. Yet, he's there...EVERYDAY.

 

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

I still think he's the worst, and there can certainly be an argument made for it. Garrett Atkins, Brian Giles, and Chris B. Young have all proven more with the bat, at some point, than Bonifacio ever has. I'd be willing to bet all 3 out .OPS Bonifacio by year's end.

 

Regardless, Bonifacio shouldn't be starting everyday, and he has no business, hitting 1 or 2 in the order. Yet, he's there...EVERYDAY.

 

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

It's also worth noting that Garret Atkins is hardly even a regular anymore. Colorado has been giving a lot of his at bats to Ian Stewart and there is likely a demotion coming. We obviously don't have an Ian Stewart, but we still do have options for the infield and its baffling why we haven't used them.

These are the runs created per PA (based on extrapolated runs). I guess Coghlan has being better than I thought.

 

Hanley Ramirez - 0.175

Dan Uggla - 0.143

Jorge Cantu - 0.140

Ross Gload - 0.133

John Baker - 0.130

Jeremy Hermida - 0.120

Chris Coghlan - 0.117

Cody Ross - 0.117

Ronny Paulino - 0.105

Wes Helms - 0.090

Emilio Bonifacio - 0.082

Cameron Maybin - 0.079

Alfredo Amezaga - 0.066

I think you have a tendency lately to undervalue the power of a drawn walk. He is very good at not making outs, which is important. Yeah, he essentially slaps at the ball with his barehand when he puts it in play, but he is one of our best 'not making outs' guys. We could use another one of him.

Who are you referring to BobBob?

Polo.

 

I've seen him on more than one occasion challenge the prevailing notion that obp>all, and while I understand and agree with him that a lot of people might undervalue slugging, I feel he's gone a bit too far to the other side, undevaluing guys like hermida or coghlan that do a good job getting on base but don't have the power.

 

Oh, I was referring to coghlan.

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

I don't have access to it either.

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

I don't have access to it either.

 

-3... man has he fallen in a short period...

 

-2 on GB, - 1 on "Air" plays

 

also, he's -1 going to his right, -5 straight on, and +4 going to his left. But, he's a B+ fielding bunts... so yay.

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

I don't have access to it either.

 

-3... man has he fallen in a short period...

 

Definitely have to wonder if his offense is playing a part. Either trying to compensate for his offense by trying too hard on defense, or being in such a state of mind that he's just continually f***ing up like A-Rod did back in...'06? or '07 where he made like an error everytime he had to throw the ball.

 

Definitely isn't and shouldn't be this bad of a fielder though. Amazing that in the past two weeks he's at -4 runs.

Gotta keep that speed in there.

 

 

What's the point of keeping the speed in there if he's not getting on base? .298 OBP

good point. hey i want de aza in there. He is a way better hitter. Send boni to AAA to work on his game

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

I don't have access to it either.

 

-3... man has he fallen in a short period...

 

Definitely have to wonder if his offense is playing a part. Either trying to compensate for his offense by trying too hard on defense, or being in such a state of mind that he's just continually f***ing up like A-Rod did back in...'06? or '07 where he made like an error everytime he had to throw the ball.

 

Definitely isn't and shouldn't be this bad of a fielder though. Amazing that in the past two weeks he's at -4.

 

That's along the lines of what I'm thinking, but I also go as far as saying going to AAA would definitely help, too

I certainly think AAA is the best place for him but if he actually is suffering from mental problems then it might just make matters worse. It's one thing for, like, Maybin, where it's "you're not ready yet." If he's in a state of mind of "Am I really cut out to be in the majors", and then he gets sent down, it might just break him more.

 

Or his defensive ineptitude the past couple weeks is just the example of a small sample size playing it's course and we're looking too deep into something that isn't there lol.

good point. hey i want de aza in there. He is a way better hitter. Send boni to AAA to work on his game

 

They are pretty much the same exact hitter. Replacing Bonifacio in the lineup with DeAza is a lateral move.

Nny, what is Bonifacio's +/- this year? Thanks in advance. I'd like to know, and don't have access to the info.

 

 

I don't have access to it either.

 

-3... man has he fallen in a short period...

 

Definitely have to wonder if his offense is playing a part. Either trying to compensate for his offense by trying too hard on defense, or being in such a state of mind that he's just continually f***ing up like A-Rod did back in...'06? or '07 where he made like an error everytime he had to throw the ball.

 

Definitely isn't and shouldn't be this bad of a fielder though. Amazing that in the past two weeks he's at -4 runs.

 

 

It also could be that's he's injured.

 

Not unlike Cantu, a second baseman converted to third (after a short time there) went through a period amassing throwing errors like crazy until his arm got well and those miscues tapered off quickly. Bonifacio is in full double clutch mode on each throw these days, a sure sign something is ailing him. Whereas he always displayed a bit of a hitch in his throws, as Hanley often does at shortstop, it's now quite pronounced and may be indicative of what's really behind this.

 

The throw from third is unlike either that from SS or second, you use your body completely differently both fielding and throwing. Middle infielders have a number of luxuries that neither corner guys have, and I'm not making excuses for Bonifacio's recent sub-par play, it's almost a completely different game they're playing. That's one of things that makes Amezaga so valuable, his ability to seamlessly move from one position to another. It's also one of the reasons the Marlins are reluctant to move Hanley to third, or Uggla for that matter, and it isn't the distance of the throw so much as the dynamics of the throw. The day after Ross threw in emergency relief, he admitted to being sore. But that soreness as he described it wasn't from overtaxing the muscles he normally uses game in, game out, it was muscles in his rib cage and his lower back that he seldom puts a strain on playing in the outfield. I would bet Coghlan's workout regimen has changed significantly since moving to the outfield.

 

As for sending him to AAA I wouldn't be surprised if he's DLed before he's optioned to NOLA. At least that's my read. If something is wrong no doubt Tommy will hint at it soon.

He was the 6th rated prospect by BA and 10th by Sickels in a very weak system that was heavily depleted by the Diamondbacks top guys going to the parent club.

 

He was never projected to be anything more than a utility player at best.

 

Sickels rated him in 07 too. 13th when their org was stacked. BA voted him best infield defender and baserunner in 07 and 08.

He had a good minor league record (4 straight all star years, batted .300, stole bases).

He was regarded far better than simply an utility guy. The Nats and Marlins both envisioned him in their starting lineup as their leadoff hitter.

 

He was a legit prospect. That's certain. What isn't is prospects panning out.

 

Sickels rated him C+ in both years. For a player in AAA, that's basically a bench player/fringe starter.

It's rather amazing how quickly EB's critics are willing to dismiss his accomplishments. When in fact they show they're often ignorant of the simpliest things. Or have to lie.

When Sickels rated him in 2007, he was coming off an impressive .300 60 stolen base season in class A. When Sickels rated him in 2008, he hadn't had a single at bat in AAA (but was named MVP of the Carribean winter leagues).

Both the Nats and Marlins regarded as more than a bench player. Had he stayed in Arizona, he likely would ave been the favorite to start at 2B.

 

What I don't get is why even the effort to discredit his minor league performance? One would think his MLB performance would be enough to question his role. However, even before the season started, people (mind you MB.com posters) were writing him off as hopeless and useless. Is it merely a case of crazies convincing themselves of their own lies?

What did I lie about, exactly?

 

The reason that 2006 season is still thought of as "meh" is because he was 20 years old, repeating the level, and was in his what...4th or 5th year of professional baseball.