I don't think RVH pitched that bad today. For what it's worth, when Anibal comes up, I think West needs to go down. Not RVH.

 

 

I agree. He really didn't look as bad as those numbers suggest. Just another example of stats can lie. If Anibal has another good and painfree outing he will be up for the Atlanta series and West will go down.

 

Doubt it.

Our rotation would be loaded with RHP and no LHP.

 

 

I'd say that's irrelevant.

The Marlins have been very fun to watch lately, even the losses.

 

Hanley is starting to put up some amazing numbers. If we win the Wild Card, he should get a few MVP nods.

 

Gotta love Boni with the three hits in game 2. You guys must hate that...

 

 

Actually, Boni had a very nice home stand. Even tho there were a couple folks here that were wanting him to be a bench player instead of an every day player, most will now take credit for it. Truth is most wanted him gone, period. Minors, DFA'd or even through injury. To the point of either just focusing solely on his shortcommings, or making things up. And the guy(s) they wanted him replaced with were rediculous. I kept saying if he got replaced it would be through a trade and not from within, but...

 

The kid is young, a hard worker, and is constantly showing that he is learning. I see Winter Ball for him again this year. He still has some work to do and he knows it. Won't be long before everyone is saying they always liked him.

 

It was a lynch mob.

 

He's been impressive. He's no Castillo but he definately has time to improve and age on his side. I hope to see him return in 2010.

 

Disagree with that. Although Boni showed continuous improvement, it wasn't fast enough. Granted, some were way over board on him with their comments (like that really means anything), but he just wasn't improving fast enough for the team in the position we are in right now to make the FO and coaching staff stick with him as a full time starter. Meaning: a play off race.

 

BTW He's Castillo in so many ways. Maybe better at this point in their careers. Castillo got sent down in '97, Boni is still here and showing why. I think he is the starting 2B in 2010 and earns a huge following.

2009

 

Boni > Maybin

 

 

 

Hardly.

And Cameron Maybin has been in 26 games. So don't go around and compare Maybin to Bonifacio.

 

I didn't think this was so hard to comprehend but here goes for the slow crowd.

 

Maybin began the season as our lead-off hitter and starting center fielder. Many if not all were expecting great things from him and he failed miserably. That's why he was demoted and has not been seen since. He might return in September but that won't be nearly enough time to make up for 2009.

 

Bonifacio on the other hand came with no expectations and has contributed all season long. Yes, he suffered through terrible slumps at time but unlike the guy who shoves Minor League umpires, Boni has adjusted and is doing well in his new role.

 

Boni has done WAY more for the 2009 Marlins than Maybin has. It's a fact. Get over it.

 

 

First, Maybin would have been up by now if there weren't any issues with his contract and service time.

 

And for Bonifacio, a .620 OPS is hardly contributing. Most of our minor league players could do that. In fact, last time I checked, his WAR was -.7, which means he has actually contributed to us losing, not winning.

 

OPS is a very unfair stat to judge a hitter like Boni. Isn't he tied in the NL for infield hits? How does that come into play when he beats out possible DP's and reaches on a fielders choice? Or when his speed causes the defenses to make errors to allow him on base? If he hasn't been contributing then why does he still hold the #2 spot on the team, only behind Hanley, for runs scored after almost 3 weeks of being a bench player?

 

Stats are fun. You can find all the ones you want to prove your point as long as you ignore the ones that don't.

I don't think RVH pitched that bad today. For what it's worth, when Anibal comes up, I think West needs to go down. Not RVH.

 

 

I agree. He really didn't look as bad as those numbers suggest. Just another example of stats can lie. If Anibal has another good and painfree outing he will be up for the Atlanta series and West will go down.

 

Doubt it.

Our rotation would be loaded with RHP and no LHP.

 

You can't really make decisions based on RHP/LHP at this point. You absolutely have to put your best 5 out there, regardless of which hand they throw with.

 

Bob - certain stats, viewed improperly, can certainly not tell the whole story. However, looking at the right set of stats over the right sample size will nearly always paint an accurate picture.

 

Touchy thing there. If you don't look at the entire picture then looking only at certain stats is giving a lopsided overview. It's why I'm not much of a stats guy even if I do have the tendancy to bring the ignored ones out when in some discussions.

 

BTW Totally agree with the first sentence of your post. At this point in the season, your best 5 gives you the best opportunity to get to the play offs where you only need your best 3.

BTW He's Castillo in so many ways. Maybe better at this point in their careers. Castillo got sent down in '97, Boni is still here and showing why. I think he is the starting 2B in 2010 and earns a huge following.

 

 

At the age of twenty 4, Luis Castillo hit .334 with 78 walks and only 86 strikes outs for a .418 OBP.

 

You are trying to compare a 21 year old Castillo to a 24 year old Bonifacio. They are not similar at all. Come on, Bob. You are better than this.

 

They are fast and don't hit for power, that is literally all they have in common.

 

And to your point of why he is 2nd on the team in runs scored: He's fast, and Hanley is awesome. Imagine how many more runs he would've scored if his OBP had been above .300 when he was at the top of the order.

2009

 

Boni > Maybin

 

 

 

Hardly.

And Cameron Maybin has been in 26 games. So don't go around and compare Maybin to Bonifacio.

 

I didn't think this was so hard to comprehend but here goes for the slow crowd.

 

Maybin began the season as our lead-off hitter and starting center fielder. Many if not all were expecting great things from him and he failed miserably. That's why he was demoted and has not been seen since. He might return in September but that won't be nearly enough time to make up for 2009.

 

Bonifacio on the other hand came with no expectations and has contributed all season long. Yes, he suffered through terrible slumps at time but unlike the guy who shoves Minor League umpires, Boni has adjusted and is doing well in his new role.

 

Boni has done WAY more for the 2009 Marlins than Maybin has. It's a fact. Get over it.

 

 

First, Maybin would have been up by now if there weren't any issues with his contract and service time.

 

And for Bonifacio, a .620 OPS is hardly contributing. Most of our minor league players could do that. In fact, last time I checked, his WAR was -.7, which means he has actually contributed to us losing, not winning.

 

OPS is a very unfair stat to judge a hitter like Boni. Isn't he tied in the NL for infield hits? How does that come into play when he beats out possible DP's and reaches on a fielders choice? Or when his speed causes the defenses to make errors to allow him on base? If he hasn't been contributing then why does he still hold the #2 spot on the team, only behind Hanley, for runs scored after almost 3 weeks of being a bench player?

 

Stats are fun. You can find all the ones you want to prove your point as long as you ignore the ones that don't.

 

 

Infield hits count as singles, which counts towards a player's OPS, so I don't know what you're trying to say there. And if you want to count all of the times he utilizes his speed to get on base, then you also have to count all of the times that he's been picked off/caught stealing, which is a good amount. He is second on the team in runs because for all but a few games this season he either hit first or second (right in front of a .989 OPS plaer.) Runs scored is only mainly dpendent on where you hit in the lineup, not so much your hitting ability. If he were hitting 8th this whole season, him and his .305 OBP would probably be dead last on the team in runs scored.

 

You can't ignore the stats. Bonifacio is terrible, and has been terrible this whole year, and you seem to be the only person who thinks otherwise.

emilio bonifacio sucks, he always has, he always will.

 

i will say, that, he's not a bad guy to have ON THE BENCH because he can fly, and gets hits sometimes (i dont quite hate it when he comes in to face a lefty)

and also he can play in a lot of different positions.

 

but still, we already have a guy like that, remember alfredo?? AA > EB

 

so when he gets healthy, hopefully that means EB back in AAA.

 

Any team at the MLB level, with this guy starting, has a weakness.

emilio bonifacio sucks, he always has, he always will.

 

i will say, that, he's not a bad guy to have ON THE BENCH because he can fly, and gets hits sometimes (i dont quite hate it when he comes in to face a lefty)

and also he can play in a lot of different positions.

 

but still, we already have a guy like that, remember alfredo?? AA > EB

 

so when he gets healthy, hopefully that means EB back in AAA.

 

Any team at the MLB level, with this guy starting, has a weakness.

 

 

Bonifacio is hitting .323 vs Lefties so he deserves starts against them which is why Freddi has taken Hermida from RF to put him in the lineup. Plus he's been great of the bench so far.

 

Amezega is pretty much done for the rest of the season and will most likely not be resigned so EB is basically the next Alfredo Amezega.

 

The only thing I find interesting about the two is that Boni hits lefties way better then he does righties and Mez hits righties way better then he does lefties.

Yea, Amezaga is done with the Marlins.

The Marlins have been very fun to watch lately, even the losses.

 

Hanley is starting to put up some amazing numbers. If we win the Wild Card, he should get a few MVP nods.

 

Gotta love Boni with the three hits in game 2. You guys must hate that...

 

 

Actually, Boni had a very nice home stand. Even tho there were a couple folks here that were wanting him to be a bench player instead of an every day player, most will now take credit for it. Truth is most wanted him gone, period. Minors, DFA'd or even through injury. To the point of either just focusing solely on his shortcommings, or making things up. And the guy(s) they wanted him replaced with were rediculous. I kept saying if he got replaced it would be through a trade and not from within, but...

 

The kid is young, a hard worker, and is constantly showing that he is learning. I see Winter Ball for him again this year. He still has some work to do and he knows it. Won't be long before everyone is saying they always liked him.

 

It was a lynch mob.

 

He's been impressive. He's no Castillo but he definately has time to improve and age on his side. I hope to see him return in 2010.

 

Disagree with that. Although Boni showed continuous improvement, it wasn't fast enough. Granted, some were way over board on him with their comments (like that really means anything), but he just wasn't improving fast enough for the team in the position we are in right now to make the FO and coaching staff stick with him as a full time starter. Meaning: a play off race.

 

BTW He's Castillo in so many ways. Maybe better at this point in their careers. Castillo got sent down in '97, Boni is still here and showing why. I think he is the starting 2B in 2010 and earns a huge following.

 

 

This was something many of his supporters said this offseason, when guys like bobbob, Lou, myself, etc., etc. (the "haters") kept saying, otherwise. How's that looking now?

 

People think of Castillo as a guy who was just "filler" and came out of nowhere to have a great career, but he really wasn't. Look at his minor league stats, and you clearly see what separates the two. Throughout his minor league career, his .OBP was .404, and he walked more than he struck out. Unlike Boni, Lui had great plate recognition. He always showed the potential to get on base with his patience...which Bonifacio has never really done. And unlike others, I believe you either have patience...or you don't. It's not something you teach, especially not at this level.

 

So, basically, my conclusion is still the same conclusion that I had during the offseason. Bonifacio is a utility player. That doesn't mean he "sucks," either. Utility players can be valuable. But they are not everyday players.

 

Btw, runs scored is more of a team statistic...not one used to evaluate individuals. Think about it...you need someone to drive you in, in order to score.

Bob, so OPS is a bad stat to measure him because his point isn't to hit for power, but to score runs when the guys behind him hit for power. Okay, fine. So you want to look at his infield singles? How about just looking about how often he is on base. When he lost his job, his OBP was .292. That's HORRIFIC. I mean, truly horrible. And that's a perfectly fair stat to judge him on. He just was NOT a good player for us in any way. Even with his incredible speed he was still terrible at getting on base.

[quote name='Fish Dynasty' date='August 18, 2009 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1250622411' Infield hits count as singles, which counts towards a player's OPS, so I don't know what you're trying to say there. And if you want to count all of the times he utilizes his speed to get on base, then you also have to count all of the times that he's been picked off/caught stealing, which is a good amount. He is second on the team in runs because for all but a few games this season he either hit first or second (right in front of a .989 OPS plaer.) Runs scored is only mainly dpendent on where you hit in the lineup, not so much your hitting ability. If he were hitting 8th this whole season, him and his .305 OBP would probably be dead last on the team in runs scored.

 

You can't ignore the stats. Bonifacio is terrible, and has been terrible this whole year, and you seem to be the only person who thinks otherwise.

 

OPS has power numbers involved, that's why it's an unfair thing to judge him by.

 

Consider him terrible the whole year if you want and keep either downgrading or ignoring the positives. Dosen't matter a bit. I never said he was having any other type of season other than the process of learning ML pitching and a new position. I just refuse to turn a blind eye to the positives just because some never wanted him from the time the trade was made. I see the continuous improvement, as do the FO and coaches. He's learning and works hard at honing skills. Just wish it was a little faster process, but if the end product is what the team thinks, then it will be worth the wait.

The Marlins have been very fun to watch lately, even the losses.

 

Hanley is starting to put up some amazing numbers. If we win the Wild Card, he should get a few MVP nods.

 

Gotta love Boni with the three hits in game 2. You guys must hate that...

 

 

Actually, Boni had a very nice home stand. Even tho there were a couple folks here that were wanting him to be a bench player instead of an every day player, most will now take credit for it. Truth is most wanted him gone, period. Minors, DFA'd or even through injury. To the point of either just focusing solely on his shortcommings, or making things up. And the guy(s) they wanted him replaced with were rediculous. I kept saying if he got replaced it would be through a trade and not from within, but...

 

The kid is young, a hard worker, and is constantly showing that he is learning. I see Winter Ball for him again this year. He still has some work to do and he knows it. Won't be long before everyone is saying they always liked him.

 

It was a lynch mob.

 

He's been impressive. He's no Castillo but he definately has time to improve and age on his side. I hope to see him return in 2010.

 

Disagree with that. Although Boni showed continuous improvement, it wasn't fast enough. Granted, some were way over board on him with their comments (like that really means anything), but he just wasn't improving fast enough for the team in the position we are in right now to make the FO and coaching staff stick with him as a full time starter. Meaning: a play off race.

 

BTW He's Castillo in so many ways. Maybe better at this point in their careers. Castillo got sent down in '97, Boni is still here and showing why. I think he is the starting 2B in 2010 and earns a huge following.

 

 

This was something many of his supporters said this offseason, when guys like bobbob, Lou, myself, etc., etc. (the "haters") kept saying, otherwise. How's that looking now?

 

People think of Castillo as a guy who was just "filler" and came out of nowhere to have a great career, but he really wasn't. Look at his minor league stats, and you clearly see what separates the two. Throughout his minor league career, his .OBP was .404, and he walked more than he struck out. Unlike Boni, Lui had great plate recognition. He always showed the potential to get on base with his patience...which Bonifacio has never really done. And unlike others, I believe you either have patience...or you don't. It's not something you teach, especially not at this level.

 

So, basically, my conclusion is still the same conclusion that I had during the offseason. Bonifacio is a utility player. That doesn't mean he "sucks," either. Utility players can be valuable. But they are not everyday players.

 

Btw, runs scored is more of a team statistic...not one used to evaluate individuals. Think about it...you need someone to drive you in, in order to score.

 

We aren't going to agree here. Learning patience was one of the positives that was brought up when Nick was brought in. Teach the others plate dicipline. Same thing. What has been going unnoticed is the amount of pitches Boni is seeing per AB. Far better than before. Winter Ball should be very helpful to him. He's not where he needs to be with his skills as of yet. But my prediction is that he will be.

 

Not sure where you get that "filler" thing with Castillo. He showed flashes of what he could do in '96-'98 but didn't live up to his potential til after that. Nothing real spectacular at the plate until '99, just good glove work at a position that he always played. That's about the only difference between the two, one honing his skills at a familiar position, and the other learning a new one. I sincerely doubt we see him taking 3 years and a few trips to the minors to work it out. I would love to see Boni playing 2B next year. And I think we are going to.

 

Don't care about the minor league numbers. Especially on someone that wasn't even in our system. Too many of our own guys have put up impressive minor league numbers only to fail at this level. And some had bad numbers only to be legitinate MLers. Do something here.

Bob, so OPS is a bad stat to measure him because his point isn't to hit for power, but to score runs when the guys behind him hit for power. Okay, fine. So you want to look at his infield singles? How about just looking about how often he is on base. When he lost his job, his OBP was .292. That's HORRIFIC. I mean, truly horrible. And that's a perfectly fair stat to judge him on. He just was NOT a good player for us in any way. Even with his incredible speed he was still terrible at getting on base.

 

 

No argument from me on his OBP being horrific. It's the main reason I always said I wouldn't mind him being replaced over there, just that the replacement wouldn't come from within the org. It would happen via a trade. We had no one that could do better at 3B despite what others thought. I have no problem with the role he has now. I fully expect him to be playing in December and work on getting on base more often. I didn't talk about just his IF hits. I talked about the different ways he gets on base that don't show up in the stats. This is a work in progress.

 

I may be a little more patient with developing players than most around here. I sat through some pretty bad seasons watching a complete team learn the game by being thrust into the fire in the late '90s. They weren't very good, but it sure was fun watching them learn and work their way into being legitimate MLers. I pulled for them, complained when mistakes were duplicated time and again, and cheered when they did good things. That's what I'm doing with Boni right now. No way will I ever root against or openly hope for an injry to a member of our team.

 

But enough of that. It's just repitition around here. Some pull for him and get labeled to one extreme, others root against him and get labeled to the other extreme. There is an in between. I'll keep rooting for and live with the label. Fair enough?

He is a rookie. We have taken what a rookie is supposed to do for granted. EB is a pain no doubt but hes slowly improving.

He is a rookie. We have taken what a rookie is supposed to do for granted. EB is a pain no doubt but hes slowly improving.

 

He's not a rookie. (Not sure how many times I've posted this.)

 

But yeah, he's a young player. Though, I haven't seen him improve. I've seen him on a recent hot streak since moving to the bench, which is good, but he's had little hot streaks where he's gotten on-base all year. On a whole look at his OBP.

 

April: .306 OBP, 93 AB

May: .279 OBP, 119 AB

June: .314 OBP, 92 AB

July: .273 OBP, 103 AB

August: .485 OBP, 28 AB

 

August looks nice but it's all been as a part time player with a low sample size. I mean, he's shown the ability to have nice streaks all year. Every month since May I've heard "he's showing improvement" for him just to go on a 5-34 streak to end a month. Actually, if you look at all his months since May, he's peaked in the middle of the month just to fall off. It's quite consistent. He'll suck for a while, suddenly "show improvement" and then just fall off again.

He is a rookie. We have taken what a rookie is supposed to do for granted. EB is a pain no doubt but hes slowly improving.

 

He's not a rookie. (Not sure how many times I've posted this.)

 

But yeah, he's a young player. Though, I haven't seen him improve. I've seen him on a recent hot streak since moving to the bench, which is good, but he's had little hot streaks where he's gotten on-base all year. On a whole look at his OBP.

 

April: .306 OBP, 93 AB

May: .279 OBP, 119 AB

June: .314 OBP, 92 AB

July: .273 OBP, 103 AB

August: .485 OBP, 28 AB

 

August looks nice but it's all been as a part time player with a low sample size.

His whole career has been a small sample size. I'm not defending the guy like I said before he IS A PAIN. He is a young player and hes going to go through stuff like this. He can get his act together sooner than later I hope.

He is a rookie. We have taken what a rookie is supposed to do for granted. EB is a pain no doubt but hes slowly improving.

 

He's not a rookie. (Not sure how many times I've posted this.)

 

But yeah, he's a young player. Though, I haven't seen him improve. I've seen him on a recent hot streak since moving to the bench, which is good, but he's had little hot streaks where he's gotten on-base all year. On a whole look at his OBP.

 

April: .306 OBP, 93 AB

May: .279 OBP, 119 AB

June: .314 OBP, 92 AB

July: .273 OBP, 103 AB

August: .485 OBP, 28 AB

 

August looks nice but it's all been as a part time player with a low sample size.

His whole career has been a small sample size. I'm not defending the guy like I said before he IS A PAIN. He is a young player and hes going to go through stuff like this. He can get his act together sooner than later I hope.

He's not going through "stuff". It's been an entire season of bad, not a little slump or something. He shouldn't have been in the starting lineup at all by May. He was put in a position where his best just wasn't good enough. He's not a pain though, he does the best he can with his abilities. Sadly, the FO had to be a pain and throw him out there every single day, despite the fact that he was not showing any improvement.

The FO has said you know what kind of player you've got after about 1000 at bats. I think that's why they're relatively patient with EB.

We aren't going to agree here. Learning patience was one of the positives that was brought up when Nick was brought in. Teach the others plate dicipline. Same thing. What has been going unnoticed is the amount of pitches Boni is seeing per AB. Far better than before. Winter Ball should be very helpful to him. He's not where he needs to be with his skills as of yet. But my prediction is that he will be.

 

Not sure where you get that "filler" thing with Castillo. He showed flashes of what he could do in '96-'98 but didn't live up to his potential til after that. Nothing real spectacular at the plate until '99, just good glove work at a position that he always played. That's about the only difference between the two, one honing his skills at a familiar position, and the other learning a new one. I sincerely doubt we see him taking 3 years and a few trips to the minors to work it out. I would love to see Boni playing 2B next year. And I think we are going to.

 

Don't care about the minor league numbers. Especially on someone that wasn't even in our system. Too many of our own guys have put up impressive minor league numbers only to fail at this level. And some had bad numbers only to be legitinate MLers. Do something here.

 

 

You keep ignoring age. Comparing a 24 year old Bonifacio to a 21 year old Castillo is dumb.

OPS has power numbers involved, that's why it's an unfair thing to judge him by.

 

Consider him terrible the whole year if you want and keep either downgrading or ignoring the positives. Dosen't matter a bit. I never said he was having any other type of season other than the process of learning ML pitching and a new position. I just refuse to turn a blind eye to the positives just because some never wanted him from the time the trade was made. I see the continuous improvement, as do the FO and coaches. He's learning and works hard at honing skills. Just wish it was a little faster process, but if the end product is what the team thinks, then it will be worth the wait.

 

 

 

It's not "unfair" to judge a player by OPS. He has no power, which is a negative. You can't just say that since he isn't the type of player that would hit for power, we should just ignore it. I don't see any positives in his stats. His only positive is that he's fast, but many times this season that has actually hurt him rather than helped him.

 

What I see is Bonifacio still getting picked off, still chasing the same pitches (high fastball), and still failing to provide any type of power. I wouldn't call that improvement, unless you're looking at the 28 ABs he's had so far in August.

I think there have been positives, sure. To ignore them is foolish.

 

But to ignore his negatives is equally foolish, and there are far more negatives with him than positives.

How the hell did this become one big Bonifacio thread??

I think there have been positives, sure. To ignore them is foolish.

 

But to ignore his negatives is equally foolish, and there are far more negatives with him than positives.

 

 

 

What positives?

LOB is a sign of a good offense, only teams that can get on base can leave them there. If you look at the yearly stats, the LOB "leaders" tend to be the teams that score the most runs.