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How would you rank the managers we've had along these 16 years? I'd rank them like this:

1) Trader Jack

2) Leyland

3) Fredi

4) Lacheman

5) Tany Perez

6) Torborg

7) Boles

8) Girardi

1. McKeon

2. Leyland

3. Girardi

4. Gonzalez

5. Lachemann

6. Torborg

7. Perez

8. Boles

  • Author

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

 

What would you call Fredi's bullpen managing then?

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

JJ's injury may be one of the biggest blessings in disguise ever... who knows if he ever throws 97+ consistently like he does now, without it.

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

JJ's injury may be one of the biggest blessings in disguise ever... who knows if he ever throws 97+ consistently like he does now, without it.

 

i agree. i actually like girardi, especially since he stood up for his players and argued when an ump made a mistake unlike fredi who always takes the high road.

We all love Jack McKeon and his forgetting all the players names. Man he will live on in history. Here is my list

1)McKeon

2) Leyland

3) Girardi

4) Gonzalez

5) Lachemann

6) Perez

7) Boles

8) Torborg

 

I believe Torborg made the rule that fans weren't allowed in the stadium while the team was taking BP. Totally pissed me off. He was also a terrible manager btw. And I don't get the Girardi hate, he was one hell of a manager. Sure he gets heat for overusing certain starters in 06, but he was the kind of manager you loved. Stood up to the FO, got in players faces when they screwed up, a "no nonsense" kind of coach, and he really got to the players that we had in 06. Sucks that Girardi had to tell Loria to go f*ck himself during the middle of a game. If he didn't he might still be here :(

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

Well I think a lot of that stuff is overblown, especially with Josh Johnson, who was claimed to have been overworked in 2006 despite him throwing nearly the same amount of innings the previous season between AA and his cup of coffee in the big leagues. I know innings aren't the greatest measure of stress on the arm, because some pitchers are more efficient than others, but I don't have pitches thrown data to work with, so innings will have to suffice. The way I see it, Girardi was trying to do what a manager is supposed to do, and that's win ballgames. With the 2006 bullpen being as bad as it was, can you really blame Girardi for relying a little more heavily on his young starting rotation? If he had been more conservative, the team wouldn't have won as many ballgames as they did. It's not Girardi's fault that the modern front office babies their young pitchers (but that's a different conversation for a different day...and I'm not blaming front offices either, because signing bonuses are way higher than they once were, so you can see why they do it, but I think they are getting a little extreme). But in Girardi's situation, it's awfully difficult to try to win with a bad bullpen and preserve young arms at the same time.

  • Author

Well, I think Fredi dows a heckuva job managing the bullpen. I mean, like everybody else he's commited errors (intentionally passing Bako to face Werth was God awful) but for the most part he's pulled the right strings when it comes to matchups and going with the pitcher who has worked out to be the best solution. Our bullpen is 6th, I think, in ERA in the Bigs and we don't have anybody who stands out so that right there tells you that Fredi's been able to manage the bullpen correctly.

About Girardi's management I think that we lost 6 to 8 games just because he'd refuse to take Herges out of the bullpen or left somebody in the game way too long...plus, I just cannot get over the fact that he injured JJ and Anibal, together with Carlos Martinez, in that season along. Moreover, he always had this attitude that he was the big shot who came from the Yanks and he was managing a smaller brand of baseball...I really think he's the worst ever, hands down and even topping John Boles...

  • Author

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

Well I think a lot of that stuff is overblown, especially with Josh Johnson, who was claimed to have been overworked in 2006 despite him throwing nearly the same amount of innings the previous season between AA and his cup of coffee in the big leagues. I know innings aren't the greatest measure of stress on the arm, because some pitchers are more efficient than others, but I don't have pitches thrown data to work with, so innings will have to suffice. The way I see it, Girardi was trying to do what a manager is supposed to do, and that's win ballgames. With the 2006 bullpen being as bad as it was, can you really blame Girardi for relying a little more heavily on his young starting rotation? If he had been more conservative, the team wouldn't have won as many ballgames as they did. It's not Girardi's fault that the modern front office babies their young pitchers (but that's a different conversation for a different day...and I'm not blaming front offices either, because signing bonuses are way higher than they once were, so you can see why they do it, but I think they are getting a little extreme). But in Girardi's situation, it's awfully difficult to try to win with a bad bullpen and preserve young arms at the same time.

Girardi had 4 rookies who won 10 games or more for him and had a lineup who featured Cabrera, Hanley, Uggla, etc... he had a great team...

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

Well I think a lot of that stuff is overblown, especially with Josh Johnson, who was claimed to have been overworked in 2006 despite him throwing nearly the same amount of innings the previous season between AA and his cup of coffee in the big leagues. I know innings aren't the greatest measure of stress on the arm, because some pitchers are more efficient than others, but I don't have pitches thrown data to work with, so innings will have to suffice. The way I see it, Girardi was trying to do what a manager is supposed to do, and that's win ballgames. With the 2006 bullpen being as bad as it was, can you really blame Girardi for relying a little more heavily on his young starting rotation? If he had been more conservative, the team wouldn't have won as many ballgames as they did. It's not Girardi's fault that the modern front office babies their young pitchers (but that's a different conversation for a different day...and I'm not blaming front offices either, because signing bonuses are way higher than they once were, so you can see why they do it, but I think they are getting a little extreme). But in Girardi's situation, it's awfully difficult to try to win with a bad bullpen and preserve young arms at the same time.

Girardi had 4 rookies who won 10 games or more for him and had a lineup who featured Cabrera, Hanley, Uggla, etc... he had a great team...

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

Well I think a lot of that stuff is overblown, especially with Josh Johnson, who was claimed to have been overworked in 2006 despite him throwing nearly the same amount of innings the previous season between AA and his cup of coffee in the big leagues. I know innings aren't the greatest measure of stress on the arm, because some pitchers are more efficient than others, but I don't have pitches thrown data to work with, so innings will have to suffice. The way I see it, Girardi was trying to do what a manager is supposed to do, and that's win ballgames. With the 2006 bullpen being as bad as it was, can you really blame Girardi for relying a little more heavily on his young starting rotation? If he had been more conservative, the team wouldn't have won as many ballgames as they did. It's not Girardi's fault that the modern front office babies their young pitchers (but that's a different conversation for a different day...and I'm not blaming front offices either, because signing bonuses are way higher than they once were, so you can see why they do it, but I think they are getting a little extreme). But in Girardi's situation, it's awfully difficult to try to win with a bad bullpen and preserve young arms at the same time.

Girardi had 4 rookies who won 10 games or more for him and had a lineup who featured Cabrera, Hanley, Uggla, etc... he had a great team...

Wow the IQ on this board keeps getting worse and worse..

 

Hanley and Uggla were rookies. And so was the entire SP! That team was suppose to lose over 100 games! So i dont know how you figure that Girardi had a "great team". In fact if you ask around that team played like noone expected.

I really Liked Lach! much more than Fredi...

Well, I think Fredi dows a heckuva job managing the bullpen. I mean, like everybody else he's commited errors (intentionally passing Bako to face Werth was God awful) but for the most part he's pulled the right strings when it comes to matchups and going with the pitcher who has worked out to be the best solution. Our bullpen is 6th, I think, in ERA in the Bigs and we don't have anybody who stands out so that right there tells you that Fredi's been able to manage the bullpen correctly.

About Girardi's management I think that we lost 6 to 8 games just because he'd refuse to take Herges out of the bullpen or left somebody in the game way too long...plus, I just cannot get over the fact that he injured JJ and Anibal, together with Carlos Martinez, in that season along. Moreover, he always had this attitude that he was the big shot who came from the Yanks and he was managing a smaller brand of baseball...I really think he's the worst ever, hands down and even topping John Boles...

 

 

 

 

 

Wow out all the things I have ever heard about Fredi i thought I would never ever hear he manages the bullpen well...as opposed to what? a mentally challenged monkey?

1) Trader Jack

2) Leyland

3) Girardi

4) Tany Perez

5) Boles

6) Torborg

7) Fredi

8) Lachemann (the worst ever)

 

Girardi did more than I thought he ever could.

1. Jack

2. The Chimney

3. Lache

4. Fredi

5. Girardi

6. Torborg

7. Perez

8. Boles

 

My choices are wholly un-scientific, sentimental in nature. You HAVE to put the WS-winnign mngrs first, and Jack goes to the top because of the early-season turnaround he orchestrated.

 

Lache belongs in the top 3 not because he was a great manager (43% career mngrial record) but because he was our inagural skipper and is a great baseball man. There was a reaon he was ony Tony LaRusa's staff for several years after getting the axe.

 

Fredi's continued to sqeeze the most out of what's given him. Overall, despite micro decisions we can pick apart like bullpen management, he's managed to stay in contention for much of his 3 seasons so far. He's a "student of the game", well resepcted in baseball and refined his skills under one of the best in Cox.

 

Girardi, while a very intelligent field general, I think benefited from a bunch of rookies playing over their heads, trying to prove they belonged in the majors. Even though it wasn't under his own choosing, only one season at the helm, so I can never put him higher than middle of the pack.

 

Torborg was by far the worst of the regular mngrs (ie, interim), but I don't have anything against him necessarily, just couldn't get his players motivated to win. Actually, one of the nicest mngrs we've had (to the fans), second only to Lache, IMHO.

 

Tony was a "WTF, did that just happen?" kind of blip on the radar.

 

I don't know how anyone could put anyone other than Boles in the bottom spot. While a fantastic player development guy (I saw him at the draft a couple of years ago, he has that the top spot in that regard for the Mariners currently), how anyone thought he could manage a team is beyond me. No once, but twice!?! It would be like Beinfest in the dugout; a great FO executive, but poor field manager. I suppose I can understand the second stint because we had so many of "his" minor leaguers on the big club following the fire sale, but 96? Why not just let Cookie Rojas finnish the year as interim manager? Would have made more sense to me.

 

Plus I'll always have a beef w/ Boles- last game of the season, in Houston, meant nothing because of our 80-81 record. Also happened to be the last game of Andre Dawson's career. Does he start the Future Hall of Famer in his last game? No, that honor goes to Joe Orsulak. Andre pinch hits for the pitcher later in the game, popping up to 3rd in his last career AB. Thanks a lot, John.

I think Girardi messed up big time when he brought JJ back after a long rain delay. That, to me, is idiotic.

 

Also, I hated how he thought he was too good for the Marlins. He thought he could do as he pleased because he came from the Yanks. F him.

I think Fredi does a pretty good job with the bullpen for the most part. I mean, sometimes he makes the right move and it backfires, but you can't blame him for that. For the most part where the pen is concerned, he puts his players in the best situation to succeed. We have no LOOGY, so he has to try to mix and match that, etc.

1. Jack

2. The Chimney

3. Lache

4. Fredi

5. Girardi

6. Torborg

7. Perez

8. Boles

 

My choices are wholly un-scientific, sentimental in nature. You HAVE to put the WS-winnign mngrs first, and Jack goes to the top because of the early-season turnaround he orchestrated.

 

Lache belongs in the top 3 not because he was a great manager (43% career mngrial record) but because he was our inagural skipper and is a great baseball man. There was a reaon he was ony Tony LaRusa's staff for several years after getting the axe.

 

Fredi's continued to sqeeze the most out of what's given him. Overall, despite micro decisions we can pick apart like bullpen management, he's managed to stay in contention for much of his 3 seasons so far. He's a "student of the game", well resepcted in baseball and refined his skills under one of the best in Cox.

 

Girardi, while a very intelligent field general, I think benefited from a bunch of rookies playing over their heads, trying to prove they belonged in the majors. Even though it wasn't under his own choosing, only one season at the helm, so I can never put him higher than middle of the pack.

 

Torborg was by far the worst of the regular mngrs (ie, interim), but I don't have anything against him necessarily, just couldn't get his players motivated to win. Actually, one of the nicest mngrs we've had (to the fans), second only to Lache, IMHO.

 

Tony was a "WTF, did that just happen?" kind of blip on the radar.

 

I don't know how anyone could put anyone other than Boles in the bottom spot. While a fantastic player development guy (I saw him at the draft a couple of years ago, he has that the top spot in that regard for the Mariners currently), how anyone thought he could manage a team is beyond me. No once, but twice!?! It would be like Beinfest in the dugout; a great FO executive, but poor field manager. I suppose I can understand the second stint because we had so many of "his" minor leaguers on the big club following the fire sale, but 96? Why not just let Cookie Rojas finnish the year as interim manager? Would have made more sense to me.

 

Plus I'll always have a beef w/ Boles- last game of the season, in Houston, meant nothing because of our 80-81 record. Also happened to be the last game of Andre Dawson's career. Does he start the Future Hall of Famer in his last game? No, that honor goes to Joe Orsulak. Andre pinch hits for the pitcher later in the game, popping up to 3rd in his last career AB. Thanks a lot, John.

 

 

 

Great Manager?!?! Not even close. You think Fredi manages a bullpen like crap, you obviously never saw Lachemann manage. The guy would wait until we were down by 15 runds before changing the pitcher. I partied the day they canned him. If it wasn't for him we might have had a winning season before '97. And please don't give me that Tony LaRussa crap. He was a third base coach for him. His biggest role was whether to send runners or not. He was a good do boy for Tony. Just ask yourself how many other managerial posts he's had since then....

1) Leyland - The right guy for the veteran team at the time

2) McKeon - Trader Jack!

3) Gonzalez - I think he is maligned for a lot of issues truly related to the budget

4) Girardi - A good motivator, he was even worse with the bullpen than Freddi and bad for the rotation

5) Boles - A good player development guy, but couldn't make the transition to using developed players

6) Perez - He filled in a lost season, can't really make a judgement

7) Lacheman - Terrible lineup choices (I mean players on the field at all) appalling bullpen management, big hair

8) Torborg - Sh*ttiest sh*t since sh*t came to sh*t town.

Torborg was absolutely the worst of the group. There's a reason why he doesn't have a managerial job anymore, and hasn't since he left us.

1) Leyland - The right guy for the veteran team at the time

2) McKeon - Trader Jack!

3) Gonzalez - I think he is maligned for a lot of issues truly related to the budget

4) Girardi - A good motivator, he was even worse with the bullpen than Freddi and bad for the rotation

5) Boles - A good player development guy, but couldn't make the transition to using developed players

6) Perez - He filled in a lost season, can't really make a judgement

7) Lacheman - Terrible lineup choices (I mean players on the field at all) appalling bullpen management, big hair

8) Torborg - Sh*ttiest sh*t since sh*t came to sh*t town.

 

 

That's exactly how I would rank the managers, and your commentary is spot-on. I'll add that I think Fredi will end up overtaking McKeon in the next couple of years. I think he's a good manager, particularly considering his budget constraints.

Lache belongs in the top 3 not because he was a great manager (43% career mngrial record) but because he was our inagural skipper and is a great baseball man. There was a reaon he was ony Tony LaRusa's staff for several years after getting the axe.

 

 

 

Great Manager?!?! Not even close. You think Fredi manages a bullpen like crap, you obviously never saw Lachemann manage. The guy would wait until we were down by 15 runds before changing the pitcher. I partied the day they canned him. If it wasn't for him we might have had a winning season before '97. And please don't give me that Tony LaRussa crap. He was a third base coach for him. His biggest role was whether to send runners or not. He was a good do boy for Tony. Just ask yourself how many other managerial posts he's had since then....

 

Dude, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not calling him a great manager (which is why I highlighted his losing carrer managerial record) by any means, but regardless of his decisions, he was our Inagural manager and held that position for 3.5 seasons- that means something to me regardless of the result on the field.

 

As far a 3rd Base coach being "crap," I think you understimate their value- that's not all they do. I believe Lache was LaRusa's IF coach.

  • Author

I just think it's hard to top all the wrong things Girardi did for us by injuring JJ and Anibal...plus he was God awful managing the bullpen...

 

 

Well I think a lot of that stuff is overblown, especially with Josh Johnson, who was claimed to have been overworked in 2006 despite him throwing nearly the same amount of innings the previous season between AA and his cup of coffee in the big leagues. I know innings aren't the greatest measure of stress on the arm, because some pitchers are more efficient than others, but I don't have pitches thrown data to work with, so innings will have to suffice. The way I see it, Girardi was trying to do what a manager is supposed to do, and that's win ballgames. With the 2006 bullpen being as bad as it was, can you really blame Girardi for relying a little more heavily on his young starting rotation? If he had been more conservative, the team wouldn't have won as many ballgames as they did. It's not Girardi's fault that the modern front office babies their young pitchers (but that's a different conversation for a different day...and I'm not blaming front offices either, because signing bonuses are way higher than they once were, so you can see why they do it, but I think they are getting a little extreme). But in Girardi's situation, it's awfully difficult to try to win with a bad bullpen and preserve young arms at the same time.

Girardi had 4 rookies who won 10 games or more for him and had a lineup who featured Cabrera, Hanley, Uggla, etc... he had a great team...

Wow the IQ on this board keeps getting worse and worse..

 

Hanley and Uggla were rookies. And so was the entire SP! That team was suppose to lose over 100 games! So i dont know how you figure that Girardi had a "great team". In fact if you ask around that team played like noone expected.

That's my opinion and should've been respected like I respect yours, even though I don't agree with it. You don't know me in person to say that my IQ is worse than yours.

I think Fredi does a pretty good job with the bullpen for the most part. I mean, sometimes he makes the right move and it backfires, but you can't blame him for that. For the most part where the pen is concerned, he puts his players in the best situation to succeed. We have no LOOGY, so he has to try to mix and match that, etc.

 

 

 

I'm not a big fan of how he uses our best reliever.

Nor am I a big fan of him using Meyer as a LOOGY so many times, when he's actually been better against righties.

And his constant overusage of Renyel Pinto in high leverage situations sucks, too.

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