No, I'd say it started in 1997. Yeah, we've had a couple of different owners since then, but that's just the way It's been since then. People have felt like that since crater face had the fire sale. And of course the fans here are bandwagoners, we all know that, but they've shown that they'll support a winning team in the other major sports. Problem here is that nobody takes the Marlins seriously and up until now there was always the threat of relocation.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fans will start to show up in 2012 and Loria and Samson will prove me and everyone who's actually dealt with them and called them crooks wrong.

 

The firesale wasn't thought as a constant happening until the 2005-2006 offseason. That has nothing to do with the fans not showing up for a winning team in 2005. You are right about the relocation problem, but why was that a problem? Because no one showed up!

 

Also, please tell me who "everyone who's actually delt with them and called them crooks" are.

 

I'll butt in here---

 

I don't think he said "Crooks" per say. I think he used it as a general term.

 

Many here have acussed the Front Office of pocketing revenue sharing money and being "theifs".

 

I think he's signaling out those who said the front office pockets millions of dollars of revenue sharing after recieving it from MLB.

 

Truthfully, i don't give a rats [deleted]. If they want to pocket a million or two to help pay for the stadium, or Samson's next bimbo, who cares.

 

Truthfully, I only care about the on field product. As long as it remains competive, and they field a playoff caliber team--more power to them.

 

Personally, I'd be much more frustrated if they shelled out 10's of millions of dollars on poor free agent aquisitions (Royals: Meche, Guillen) or ill fated trades (Pirates: Bay, Giles, Schmidt, Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson).

 

They consistantly field a winner, not bad for a bunch of penny pinching punks.

 

I wish they would get valentine on a retainer though (1 million a year, and a guarentee he wont work for another team, or manage another team). That would cover our asses nicely if Freddi Trys to jump ship. I'd also like to put a clause in Freddi's contract saying that if he takes the Braves job after 2010 he is liable to repay the marlins x amount of dollars.

And yes, people have called them thieves (with absolutely zero proof, btw), but he is claiming that there seems to be a large number of people who have actually had dealings with the organization that are calling them "crooks". I want to know who these people are, and I don't mean Norm Braman. So far the people I hear calling them crooks such a huge lack of understanding on how the world works that they go "I HEARD THEY GET $60M IN REVENUE SHARING AND THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!".

 

And yeah, I believe that they should be making money. This is a business after all.

I never got the thing about wanting the owners to spend even if it meant they lose money

 

they lose money = they lose ownership cuz they no longer have money

 

this continues = no more major league baseball

 

we as fans = some how profit?

Bring me Leo Mazzone. The man is sitting on his ass doing nothing and he wants a job. Get it done, Loria/Beinfest!

 

 

Why Andy Fox? Hanley has improved defensively.

 

 

I agree about Mazzone. He must know Fredi and Loria was intrigued by the big name manager in Bobby Valentine, why not bring in the most famous pitching coach around?

 

Leo isn't a bad idea at all. Never even crossed my mind. 3 things may hinder that tho. 1.) How does anyone know he wants to work? Is there a link to an article that states that? 2.) How much will he want? Very deciding factor. 3.) Why not Rosey?? He's done well for us in the past. He knows our pitchers at all levels. Him and Coyote could simply change jobs.

 

I agree with the Andy comment. He did a fine job for us. Improved the defense in his tenure. The last two years taking a 3B that never played the position before and in '08, by the ASB made Cantu at least acceptable there. '09 Boni was replaced more because of his bat than his progress at 3B. Maybe they are trying to lure our IF guru back away from the Pirates?????

That's your right, but I can't think of any thing that they have done since taking over to betray the public's trust. They got a stadium deal done, won a World Series, have more winning seasons then not, added players at the deadline when they thought they were good enough to make the playoffs, and locked up perhaps the best young player in the game. Yeah, they are cheap, but that is because of the stadium they play in. Time will tell who's right, but so far I have no reason to not believe them when they say they will spend more on players come 2012.

 

 

They let the face of the franchise leave after winning the World Series, signed Carlos Delgado to a 3 year deal only to trade him after 1, they signed Hanley long-term and supposedly listened to a Red Sox offer before the ink even dried. I know you're supposed to always listen, but I think in this case they should have just told them it would be a PR nightmare to trade away yet another star after trading Cabrera.

You should ALWAYS listen to offers. Always. Every single time. You shouldn't possibly let a chance of improving your franchise just because of "bad PR". Delgado needed to be traded (though I wish he had gotten more and still weren't paying part of his salary for the next 3 years) and Pudge wanted too much money.

 

I guess that's who he means by face of the franchise. Quite the exaggeration, but whatever. How soon many seem to forget the details of that. Pudge came here for one reason. To show other teams that he was capable of playing an injury free season at a high level so he could secure a long term deal somewhere else. It wasn't as much that he wanted too much $$$ as it was he wanted at least a 4 year deal with alot of $$$. A few teams offered him basically what we offered him. Only one went the distance he demanded (and I do mean demanded), and then it was more to put fannies in the seats than it was anything. Their attendance was dropping and they got a big name catcher with a WS ring. A draw to a city that needed any kind of "good" news to help them forget, even for just a few hours at a time, their own personal troubles. On the hook for 4 years, at that price, was idiotic for a catcher his age. At least in everyone else's eyes. The Tigers found that out.

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our attendance had increased some in those years, but I think the general consensus was that the team was gonna do what they ended up doing, so why bother getting attached? It takes time to build a good fanbase and they haven't been able to do it since nobody takes them seriously. The lack of a stadium was indeed a problem, but I think they could have done better with payroll. sh*t ain't gonna change until we see them keeping their stars and adding free agents for real long-term contracts (not just 3 or 4 years).

 

I hope to god they start operating like a normal team when they get in the new stadium (or even before), but I'm not holding my breath.

 

They already started doing that. Attendance still sucks. It will continue to suck. This is a bandwagon town. That simple. Although, the first year of the new stadium will bring in solid crowds, just b/c of the excitement of having a new stadium, I'd bet.

 

I prefer to label it as an event oriented town more than bandwagon. Although bandwagon does fit in some definitions, such as basically showing up to support the team only during the play offs, even if that also fits my label.

No, I'd say it started in 1997. Yeah, we've had a couple of different owners since then, but that's just the way It's been since then. People have felt like that since crater face had the fire sale. And of course the fans here are bandwagoners, we all know that, but they've shown that they'll support a winning team in the other major sports. Problem here is that nobody takes the Marlins seriously and up until now there was always the threat of relocation.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fans will start to show up in 2012 and Loria and Samson will prove me and everyone who's actually dealt with them and called them crooks wrong.

 

The firesale wasn't thought as a constant happening until the 2005-2006 offseason. That has nothing to do with the fans not showing up for a winning team in 2005. You are right about the relocation problem, but why was that a problem? Because no one showed up!

 

Also, please tell me who "everyone who's actually delt with them and called them crooks" are.

 

I'll butt in here---

 

I don't think he said "Crooks" per say. I think he used it as a general term.

 

Many here have acussed the Front Office of pocketing revenue sharing money and being "theifs".

 

I think he's signaling out those who said the front office pockets millions of dollars of revenue sharing after recieving it from MLB.

 

Truthfully, i don't give a rats [deleted]. If they want to pocket a million or two to help pay for the stadium, or Samson's next bimbo, who cares.

 

Truthfully, I only care about the on field product. As long as it remains competive, and they field a playoff caliber team--more power to them.

 

Personally, I'd be much more frustrated if they shelled out 10's of millions of dollars on poor free agent aquisitions (Royals: Meche, Guillen) or ill fated trades (Pirates: Bay, Giles, Schmidt, Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson).

 

They consistantly field a winner, not bad for a bunch of penny pinching punks.

 

I wish they would get valentine on a retainer though (1 million a year, and a guarentee he wont work for another team, or manage another team). That would cover our asses nicely if Freddi Trys to jump ship. I'd also like to put a clause in Freddi's contract saying that if he takes the Braves job after 2010 he is liable to repay the marlins x amount of dollars.

 

Fredi is signed through 2011. He can't just jump ship. He can ask permission to talk to the Braves, just like the Braves would have to ask permission to talk to him. It really wouldn't bother me if that scenario did arise. Nothing wrong with anyone trying to up their own pay and go to a team that is much more "media loved." Also, I don't think anyone here has actually seen his contract, much less been able to decypher the legalese surely contained in it. So we have no real idea of the "ifs, ands, and buts" contained in it. Other than that little slip, pretty good post.

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

Interesting (at least to me) that not just Fox but BOTH coaches have been offered jobs within the organization. I guess I'm surprised Wiley was, but I remember that even when he was with Colorado he seemingly spent more time here and that his relationship within the organization runs deep.

What do you guys expect Loria to do with a bad stadium lease (that wasn't his fault) and a fanbase that doesn't come to games?

 

The Marlins won 87 games this season and were close to making the playoffs and still ranked last in the NL in attendance. You want to blame that on people being disillusioned after the 2005 firesale? Fine. How come the Marlins ranked 26th in MLB the year after winning the World Series? How come they fell to 28th after signing Carlos Delgado to the largest contract in club history? Here is a case where the Marlins went out and signed a high priced, highly coveted free agent and the fans still didn't show up.

 

Sure, the stadium is mediocre and there is a threat of rain but this argument only extends so far before it becomes merely an excuse for South Florida not supporting baseball.

 

Loria and Beinfest have made some strategic moves that I've found questionable but they've done nothing wrong in maintaining low payroll caps. They are severely inhibited by lack in revenue from the stadium lease and the fanbase not attending games. Loria must do what is financially expedient to keep the club solvent or else the Marlins will turn into the Texas Rangers.

Curious,

AND i'm sure rab is good at computing this type of thing--

 

Assuming we continue to draw only 10k a game at the new ballpark, and everything else stays the same (parking cost, concessions)

 

How much MORE will loria make in the new park compared to dolphin stadium?.

 

I assume he'll have control of these finally

Sponsorship (Naming Rights, Ads on the wall, ads on the concourse, team shop)

Concessions (Inside and outside the park) (5 bucks per person on average)

Parking Cost ($10 a car)

Skyboxes (1,000 per game)

Team Store ($10 bucks per person on average)

His own team offices (i'm sure he has to rent those with the f***ed up lease he has)

Curious,

AND i'm sure rab is good at computing this type of thing--

 

Assuming we continue to draw only 10k a game at the new ballpark, and everything else stays the same (parking cost, concessions)

 

How much MORE will loria make in the new park compared to dolphin stadium?.

 

I assume he'll have control of these finally

Sponsorship (Naming Rights, Ads on the wall, ads on the concourse, team shop)

Concessions (Inside and outside the park) (5 bucks per person on average)

Parking Cost ($10 a car)

Skyboxes (1,000 per game)

Team Store ($10 bucks per person on average)

His own team offices (i'm sure he has to rent those with the f***ed up lease he has)

 

I have no idea because:

 

1) No idea how much the current lease costs.

2) Don't know how much he'd have to pay all the ballpark staff that he previously didn't.

3) Things I haven't thought of.

 

Also, you forgot that we're basically paying the city and county rent for a while.

i'm sure loria and co wouldnt handcuff themselves with another bad lease/rent agreement.

 

When I get the time, I'll go around and figure out the revenue. I think a similar park would be PNC in Pittsburgh right, based on attendence averages, space for ads, cost per ticket and the like?

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

 

And this is just barely touching on the expenses of running an org. We have 7 minor league teams we are responsable for. And I'm sure sending guys to the AFL and Winter League isn't free.

 

While I am on that.... What ever happened to the Hawaii league in the winter? I know when we had the Sea Dogs we sent some of those guys there. Never hear of it anymore.

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

 

And this is just barely touching on the expenses of running an org. We have 7 minor league teams we are responsable for. And I'm sure sending guys to the AFL and Winter League isn't free.

 

While I am on that.... What ever happened to the Hawaii league in the winter? I know when we had the Sea Dogs we sent some of those guys there. Never hear of it anymore.

 

cost of air fare to travel from city to city in hawaii made it unfeasible to keep going. it folded, and there is a group trying to start a winter league in florida now, with some milb prospects

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

 

And this is just barely touching on the expenses of running an org. We have 7 minor league teams we are responsable for. And I'm sure sending guys to the AFL and Winter League isn't free.

 

While I am on that.... What ever happened to the Hawaii league in the winter? I know when we had the Sea Dogs we sent some of those guys there. Never hear of it anymore.

it look like seadogs were sold to boston redsox amd move to portland

Understand the deals on the new stadium and the adjoining parking garages are separate entities, the latter is City owned and the Marlins contractually already committed to renting every parking space for every game for thirty+ years.

 

there won't be any 10,000 fan games, at least not on paper because by the time the place opens they'll have the equivalent of 20,000+ season tickets sold for the rest of the decade. And the concessions will belong to them, at least the lion's share although they will probably roll the concessions into a management package and put it out to bid, guaranteeing them a predictable income stream while taking a piece off the top on anything over a set level.

 

the only thing that would drive down ticket sales to 10,000 a night would be a complete world-wide financial meltdown and if that happens attendance at baseball games will be the last thing you or I will be worrying about.

it look like seadogs were sold to boston redsox amd move to portland

 

Different team my friend.

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

 

And this is just barely touching on the expenses of running an org. We have 7 minor league teams we are responsable for. And I'm sure sending guys to the AFL and Winter League isn't free.

 

While I am on that.... What ever happened to the Hawaii league in the winter? I know when we had the Sea Dogs we sent some of those guys there. Never hear of it anymore.

 

cost of air fare to travel from city to city in hawaii made it unfeasible to keep going. it folded, and there is a group trying to start a winter league in florida now, with some milb prospects

 

Okay. Thanks. The reasons seem to be a bit too PC to me. It always seemed more like a "working vacation" anyways. Alot of the guys there had gotten pretty good signing bonuses. Very young guys with alot of cash spending the winter in Hawaii. What could go wrong? It was probably a good learning experience, just not baseball oriented.

THEY ONLY HAVE A $36M PAYROLL! THEY ARE KEEPING $24M IN THEIR POCKETS!

 

Haven't you heard?

 

It doesn't cost anything to find and sign draft picks or find, develop and sign prospects from other countries. It doesn't cost anything to run day-to-day business operations. All of the staff work for free! Even Beinfest works for nothing!

 

Charter airplanes to fly 100+ people and tons of equipment all over the country a dozen times a year are free! Hotels and restaurants are all free! Interest on debt? Zero! Uniforms and bats and baseballs? Free! $50 million of operating expenses? Obviously fabricated! Loria is nothing but a capitalist pig who is ripping everyone off!

 

Why, I even heard that someone said he was a crook. I think it was my cousin's hairstylist's former next-door neighbor's ex-wife. That's conclusive proof! I heard it on the internets, it must be true!

 

And this is just barely touching on the expenses of running an org. We have 7 minor league teams we are responsable for. And I'm sure sending guys to the AFL and Winter League isn't free.

 

While I am on that.... What ever happened to the Hawaii league in the winter? I know when we had the Sea Dogs we sent some of those guys there. Never hear of it anymore.

it look like seadogs were sold to boston redsox amd move to portland

 

The Seadogs were always in Portland. And they were with Boston before they were with us. I believe when Loria bought this team they reverted back. That city really supports whatever team affiliation they get, but they were a bit upset to lose Boston and gain us. I know people that worked in that org, one was an usher, and his son was the visiting clubhouse attendant. The dad relayed some very interesing stories to me about the team, strictly confidential stuff. And I have some "trinkets" of our days there that he sent me.

 

But one annual thing they always did was put bundles of corn stalks in the OF and with alot of smoke have the players walk out of it, kinda like the movie.

Understand the deals on the new stadium and the adjoining parking garages are separate entities, the latter is City owned and the Marlins contractually already committed to renting every parking space for every game for thirty+ years.

 

there won't be any 10,000 fan games, at least not on paper because by the time the place opens they'll have the equivalent of 20,000+ season tickets sold for the rest of the decade. And the concessions will belong to them, at least the lion's share although they will probably roll the concessions into a management package and put it out to bid, guaranteeing them a predictable income stream while taking a piece off the top on anything over a set level.

 

the only thing that would drive down ticket sales to 10,000 a night would be a complete world-wide financial meltdown and if that happens attendance at baseball games will be the last thing you or I will be worrying about.

 

 

 

Sounds a bit high and long. Especially the longevity thing. 20K+ season tix sold until 2020? Sounds more like wishful thinking on someone's part. I mean, this is the first year we have even been able to buy 2 seasons worth of tix. I doubt alot of folks would sign anything that makes them responsible for almost 10 years of buying tickets, which is basically what they would have to do to "know" those numbers. I know I would question the wisdom of doing that. Didn't the Phins try that recently and fail?

I never got the thing about wanting the owners to spend even if it meant they lose money

 

they lose money = they lose ownership cuz they no longer have money

 

this continues = no more major league baseball

 

we as fans = some how profit?

 

 

Well, generally this is right. I will add, though, that this is not the owners' only sources of revenue. And I've heard that sometimes they love the team and want to win so badly that they'll take a bit of a loss on the total operation of the team.

 

And theoretically, even if the current owners couldn't afford the teams anymore, there could be new people to take their places, but maybe the values of the teams would go down, but that's contingent on several things.

I never got the thing about wanting the owners to spend even if it meant they lose money

 

they lose money = they lose ownership cuz they no longer have money

 

this continues = no more major league baseball

 

we as fans = some how profit?

 

 

Well, generally this is right. I will add, though, that this is not the owners' only sources of revenue. And I've heard that sometimes they love the team and want to win so badly that they'll take a bit of a loss on the total operation of the team.

 

And theoretically, even if the current owners couldn't afford the teams anymore, there could be new people to take their places, but maybe the values of the teams would go down, but that's contingent on several things.

 

Years ago (perhaps decades is the more correct word)costs were a fraction of what they are now and tax rates were much much higher (which meant in some circumstances either spending or giving it to the IRS). Because taxes were much more regressive than they are now, one could conceivably be paying 70% above a certain number in combined state and federal taxes, might be willing to lose a few dollars to bring down his effective to say 60%, and make money by to offset the "loss" by lowering his overall tax rate. But the modern owner, having almost surely seen his fortune diminish in today's market is loathe to lose a dime. The Wilpons invested gazillions with Bernie Madoff, money gone forever, others have seen the value of their corporate ownerships or or investments beat up. It looks like next season we finally may give up the mantle of lowest payroll team in baseball to at least one team, and conceivably a couple because certainly it looks like Pittsburgh will claim the crown.

Decades is right. The highest nominal marginal federal individual income tax rate was 90% or higher as recently as 1963 and 70% until 1981. 33% wasn't seen until 1988.

 

But, almost nobody (nobody with good tax advice, anyway) paid those high rates, effective rates in the highest brackets were close to the low-20s we see today, so the effect wasn't really very large. As you say, conceivably there could have been an owner facing that high-marginal-rate trade-off.

 

Erin Arvedlund speculates in her book that Wilpon lost $700 mill with Madoff, Wilpon denies both that amount and that the Mutts are for sale. Who knows.

Bo Porter and Steve Foster did no accept the Marlins' offers and will look for opportunities elsewhere.

Marlins released Scott Proctor and Dave Davidson, outrighted Andy Gonzalez and Dallas Trahern to AAA.

 

Source: Joe Frisario tweet/Sun Sentinel

Surprised since they went that route with Trahern that they didn't just flat out release him, since he'll be out all next year and will then become a MILB FA if we don't protect him on the 40 man. Though, I guess it also gives them a chance to access how he's responding to his rehab to see if they want to then protect him, and they view it worth the MILB contract he'll have.

 

Also somewhat surprised we didn't just outright Davidson, suppose his injury is real serious then. He's obviously not someone special but always like to have LOOGY depth in AAA.

 

We knew proctor would happen since like May though, and Andy Gonzalez is far from a surprise.

 

We're now sitting on 39 men on our 40, with 4 guys looking at free agency (NJ, Gload, Kiko, Donnelly*), so that gives us 4 spots to protect rule 5 guys and 1 spot to draft with, while still having plenty of other guys to shed. Time to go searching for lou's post of our rule v guys haha.

 

*would really like to see us offer him something like a 750k ML deal. Dude absolutely brought it this season. And I imagine he takes it, since he probably gets a 750 MILB deal in free agency.