First of all, holding it against the franchise that the Red Sox called and asked about Hanley is unfair. Teams call and ask about other teams players all the time, that doesn't mean they are shopping them. Second, consistently winning builds a fan base and you don't build a perennial winner by being afraid to make an unpopular trade that you believe will improve your organization.

 

 

They not only listened, they were willing to do a trade:

 

In response to the Red Sox' inquiry, the Marlins reportedly were interested in a package that included center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury [stats] and pitcher Clay Buchholz

 

Two guys that are nowhere near Hanley's stratosphere and likely wouldn't have taken us any further than we went.

 

If that was the case and the Marlins were so willing, why isn't Hanley in Boston right now?? You don't think the Red Sox would have made that trade in an instant if that's what the Marlins "offered".

 

Besides I would put much more stock in this quote from Gammons' blog:

 

Ten days after the GM meetings, Epstein called Marlins GM Admin Beinfest and asked him if he were interested in trading Hanley Ramirez for a package including Ellsbury and Clay Buchholz. "No," replied Beinfest. End of discussion. "The entire conversation," says one club official, "lasted all of 20 seconds, a week before Thanksgiving."

 

 

Anyway, the fact that you are basing distrust of the organization on one rumored trade discussion that, by all accounts, was initiated by the Red Sox and quickly shot down is ridiculous.

 

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

Bo Porter must be sleeping with someone...

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

 

Agreed. Not overpaying for Pudge and trading Delgado were prudent moves for a baseball team operating under the worst lease in professional sports. Delgado was directly tied to the fact that the stadium deal they thought was close fell apart that winter. Still, the fact they signed him in the first place shows that Loria is willing to spend money when the ballpark opens in 2012.

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

 

You're right. What team keeps the face of their franchise after winning the World Series anyway? And fans should always know that when a player gets signed to a multi-year deal he'll likely get traded the next year. Silly us for thinking they were actually gonna operate like a normal team from now on.

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

 

You're right. What team keeps the face of their franchise after winning the World Series anyway? And fans should always know that when a player gets signed to a multi-year deal he'll likely get traded the next year. Silly us for thinking they were actually gonna operate like a normal team from now on.

 

This is the whole point of the new stadium. They simply cannot operate like a "normal" team until they have the revenue streams that normal teams have. Besides, in this economy, I think the Marlins strategy is going to become a lot more normal.

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

 

Agreed. Not overpaying for Pudge and trading Delgado were prudent moves for a baseball team operating under the worst lease in professional sports. Delgado was directly tied to the fact that the stadium deal they thought was close fell apart that winter. Still, the fact they signed him in the first place shows that Loria is willing to spend money when the ballpark opens in 2012.

 

We'll see in 2012 if they really have good intentions or if they're the carpet baggers everyone says they are.

How does Bo Porter get an extension!?

I mentioned other things, in case you forgot...

 

They weren't good reasons either.

 

You're right. What team keeps the face of their franchise after winning the World Series anyway? And fans should always know that when a player gets signed to a multi-year deal he'll likely get traded the next year. Silly us for thinking they were actually gonna operate like a normal team from now on.

They couldn't pay him. They couldn't pay him. He wanted a ton of money and they couldn't pay him. Pudge doesn't want to be paid in hugs and dreams, that guy's all about the money.

 

Also, when they signed Delgado, they also resigned other guys. And you know what the fanbase did? Not sh*t. They didn't show up, they didn't make the team viable by paying for tickets. And what the the team do? Not sh*t. Hell, they did worse, they actually did sh*t in September for the second year in a row.

 

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

Bo Porter must be sleeping with someone...

 

God knows what Presley is doing to keep his job :blink:

Not the two I would have fired, Fox was given crap to work with Bonerface at 3b, so if they look at the Infield defense as a whole there's a big part of the problem, Hanley made incredible strides the past two seasons and Cantu who was secondbaseman when he was a Ray has played decent defense at 1b and last year at third. Wiley I can understand as starters didn't perform as well expected, but how the F*

Weird that Fox got the boot because if you take Bonifacio out of the equation the infield was much better defensively even with Uggla taking a bit of a step back...However Defense was Fox department so he had to pay the price ...Baserunning is a bigger problem and Pressley is a major liability as well

 

UZR/150 is wondering what you talking about.

 

Our IF positions averaged a -1.1 in '08 and worsened to a -2.8 in '09.

 

It was a -1.4 in '06 and -11.5 in '07.

 

 

 

 

I bet you 10-1 and pay you double that you didnt even bother taking Bonifacio's infield stats out I bet you wouldn't even know how!

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our attendance had increased some in those years, but I think the general consensus was that the team was gonna do what they ended up doing, so why bother getting attached? It takes time to build a good fanbase and they haven't been able to do it since nobody takes them seriously. The lack of a stadium was indeed a problem, but I think they could have done better with payroll. sh*t ain't gonna change until we see them keeping their stars and adding free agents for real long-term contracts (not just 3 or 4 years).

 

I hope to god they start operating like a normal team when they get in the new stadium (or even before), but I'm not holding my breath.

I had a feeling Wiley was gone based on Beinfest's recent comments. Fox is a bit of a surprise to me though. I wonder who we will bring in to take their place?

I apologize I do not mean to be harsh however it does irk me a bit when you spew fielding stats. Fielding stats are like snake oil, there are no good quality stats that really have any validity. They are complex and in the end they never truly reflect actual reality. For any group of stats related to defense the flaws are too large to ignore. There was a reason I said that defensive stats would drive you insane, in actuality there not much differnt then the main character of a beautiful mind trying to find a code in the newspaper

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our attendance had increased some in those years, but I think the general consensus was that the team was gonna do what they ended up doing, so why bother getting attached? It takes time to build a good fanbase and they haven't been able to do it since nobody takes them seriously. The lack of a stadium was indeed a problem, but I think they could have done better with payroll. sh*t ain't gonna change until we see them keeping their stars and adding free agents for real long-term contracts (not just 3 or 4 years).

 

I hope to god they start operating like a normal team when they get in the new stadium (or even before), but I'm not holding my breath.

That whole "don't get attached" thing started after 2005, so that had nothing to do with no one showing up in 2005. When a team just got a high price FA, resigned two fan favorites, is leading in the wild card, and fans still aren't showing up, there is noone to blame but the fanbase, not "The owner from two owners ago sold off our players 8 years ago!". And seriously, 4 years isn't enough?

 

Seriously.

ugh. do any of you guys (the ones talking smack about loria) understand how a business works? you can not run a business by just spending money like crazy when there is very little coming in. doing that will make you go bankrupt. the marlins make squat in the current stadium. the majority of the money goes to the owners of land shark stadium. that includes parking, ticket prices, and food. the marlins see nothing so they can not go off and spend 100 million a year on payroll. they spend what their current revenue allows them to spend. once we move into the new stadium the team revenue goes up by an insane amount. even if the marlins were to have the same amount of attendance as they do now they will still see a huge increase in revenue. higher revenue = higher payroll. loria has done more for the marlins than ANY OTHER OWNER we have ever had. so please, stop talking about loria being bad because if it was not for him 2011 would be the final time you would watch a florida marlins game.

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our attendance had increased some in those years, but I think the general consensus was that the team was gonna do what they ended up doing, so why bother getting attached? It takes time to build a good fanbase and they haven't been able to do it since nobody takes them seriously. The lack of a stadium was indeed a problem, but I think they could have done better with payroll. sh*t ain't gonna change until we see them keeping their stars and adding free agents for real long-term contracts (not just 3 or 4 years).

 

I hope to god they start operating like a normal team when they get in the new stadium (or even before), but I'm not holding my breath.

 

They already started doing that. Attendance still sucks. It will continue to suck. This is a bandwagon town. That simple. Although, the first year of the new stadium will bring in solid crowds, just b/c of the excitement of having a new stadium, I'd bet.

I had a feeling Wiley was gone based on Beinfest's recent comments. Fox is a bit of a surprise to me though. I wonder who we will bring in to take their place?

 

 

 

I would love to see Perry Hill back. Although, I think he's working for the Pirates.

God, think for once, don't just talk from emotion.

 

 

Perhaps if you weren't on your knees blowing the Houston Astros at the time you'd feel the same way too.

Yeah, I couldn't have expected any less from your retort.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Our attendance had increased some in those years, but I think the general consensus was that the team was gonna do what they ended up doing, so why bother getting attached? It takes time to build a good fanbase and they haven't been able to do it since nobody takes them seriously. The lack of a stadium was indeed a problem, but I think they could have done better with payroll. sh*t ain't gonna change until we see them keeping their stars and adding free agents for real long-term contracts (not just 3 or 4 years).

 

I hope to god they start operating like a normal team when they get in the new stadium (or even before), but I'm not holding my breath.

That whole "don't get attached" thing started after 2005, so that had nothing to do with no one showing up in 2005. When a team just got a high price FA, resigned two fan favorites, is leading in the wild card, and fans still aren't showing up, there is noone to blame but the fanbase, not "The owner from two owners ago sold off our players 8 years ago!". And seriously, 4 years isn't enough?

 

Seriously.

 

No, I'd say it started in 1997. Yeah, we've had a couple of different owners since then, but that's just the way It's been since then. People have felt like that since crater face had the fire sale. And of course the fans here are bandwagoners, we all know that, but they've shown that they'll support a winning team in the other major sports. Problem here is that nobody takes the Marlins seriously and up until now there was always the threat of relocation.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fans will start to show up in 2012 and Loria and Samson will prove me and everyone who's actually dealt with them and called them crooks wrong.

they start operating like a normal team

 

Be careful what you wish for as you may not like the result. In this case, I think it's accurate to say that many people have an incorrect perception of player turnover/stability. Back in July, on some thread about team popularity, turnover was being discussed and I looked it up. Here's what I found:

 

For the 16 National League teams, players with at least one PA in '09 who also had at least one PA in '04 for the same team (I ignored relievers who almost never hit, except for Valdez, who was the Giants' only guy and Kensing, the Marlins' only guy):

 

Marlins: Kensing (6 games this year before being DFAed.)

 

D'backs: Tracy, Snyder, Webb.

 

Braves: C. Jones.

 

Cubs: Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano, Dempster.

 

Reds: Harang.

 

Rockies: Helton, Barmes, Hawpe, Atkins, Cook.

 

Astros: Berkman, Oswalt, Backe.

 

Dodgers: Weaver, Mota (traded and returned.)

 

Brewers: Hall, Hart, Counsell.

 

Mets: Wright, Reyes.

 

Phillies: Howard, Utley, Rollins, Myers, Madson.

 

Pirates: Sanchez, Wilson, Snell, Grabow, Burnett.

 

Padres: B. Giles, Peavy.

 

Giants: Valdez.

 

Cards: Y. Molina, Pujols, Ankiel, Carpenter.

 

Nats/Expos: Johnson.

 

Total 43 guys, average 2.7 per team. Nobody has more than 5 guys, four with only one guy. As might be expected, most of them are either signed long-term or are (or were, like Kensing) still under club control.

 

The turnover really is amazing and it obviously ain't just the Marlins.

The Marlins have winning seasons in 5 out of 8 years since Loria took over and a winning record overall. Oh yeah, and a world championship. Pick on somebody else.

No, I'd say it started in 1997. Yeah, we've had a couple of different owners since then, but that's just the way It's been since then. People have felt like that since crater face had the fire sale. And of course the fans here are bandwagoners, we all know that, but they've shown that they'll support a winning team in the other major sports. Problem here is that nobody takes the Marlins seriously and up until now there was always the threat of relocation.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fans will start to show up in 2012 and Loria and Samson will prove me and everyone who's actually dealt with them and called them crooks wrong.

 

The firesale wasn't thought as a constant happening until the 2005-2006 offseason. That has nothing to do with the fans not showing up for a winning team in 2005. You are right about the relocation problem, but why was that a problem? Because no one showed up!

 

Also, please tell me who "everyone who's actually delt with them and called them crooks" are.

No, I'd say it started in 1997. Yeah, we've had a couple of different owners since then, but that's just the way It's been since then. People have felt like that since crater face had the fire sale. And of course the fans here are bandwagoners, we all know that, but they've shown that they'll support a winning team in the other major sports. Problem here is that nobody takes the Marlins seriously and up until now there was always the threat of relocation.

 

Anyway, hopefully the fans will start to show up in 2012 and Loria and Samson will prove me and everyone who's actually dealt with them and called them crooks wrong.

 

The firesale wasn't thought as a constant happening until the 2005-2006 offseason. That has nothing to do with the fans not showing up for a winning team in 2005. You are right about the relocation problem, but why was that a problem? Because no one showed up!

 

Also, please tell me who "everyone who's actually delt with them and called them crooks" are.

 

I'll butt in here---

 

I don't think he said "Crooks" per say. I think he used it as a general term.

 

Many here have acussed the Front Office of pocketing revenue sharing money and being "theifs".

 

I think he's signaling out those who said the front office pockets millions of dollars of revenue sharing after recieving it from MLB.

 

Truthfully, i don't give a rats [deleted]. If they want to pocket a million or two to help pay for the stadium, or Samson's next bimbo, who cares.

 

Truthfully, I only care about the on field product. As long as it remains competive, and they field a playoff caliber team--more power to them.

 

Personally, I'd be much more frustrated if they shelled out 10's of millions of dollars on poor free agent aquisitions (Royals: Meche, Guillen) or ill fated trades (Pirates: Bay, Giles, Schmidt, Laroche, Sanchez, Wilson).

 

They consistantly field a winner, not bad for a bunch of penny pinching punks.

 

I wish they would get valentine on a retainer though (1 million a year, and a guarentee he wont work for another team, or manage another team). That would cover our asses nicely if Freddi Trys to jump ship. I'd also like to put a clause in Freddi's contract saying that if he takes the Braves job after 2010 he is liable to repay the marlins x amount of dollars.