June 25, 201114 yr '10: Paulino: .259/.311/.354/.665 $1,100,000 '09: Baker: .271/.349/.410/.759 $400,000 '08: Treanor: .238/.306/.301/.607 $705,000 '07: Olivo: .237/.262/.405/.667 $2,000,000 '06: Olivo: .263/.287/.440/.727 $700,000 '05: Lo Duca: .283/.334/.380/.714 $4,666,667 And Buck (through 67 games)... .216/.291/.369/.660. Yeah, Treanor in '08 has been the only one worse. And Buck is making $4.5 mil this year But he's been good on defense, right? No. He only throws out 20% of base stealers. League average is 27%. At least Treanor got close to that in '08 (25%). Buck has been theoretically worthless so far. The only catcher with 200+ AB in the league worse than him is Kurt Suzuki and I don't even think he's a full time starter. We owe him $12 mil over the next two years.
June 25, 201114 yr And how many times does he throw one into the outfield on a stolen base attempt? Hayes needs to make at least 1 extra start a week
June 25, 201114 yr I wonder if Buck would improve on both sides of the game if Hayes made 2 starts a week? Buck is probably tired...and maybe trying too hard...and maybe had a fluke year last year.
June 25, 201114 yr To be fair I think you should compare those numbers to Superstar's for this season. "Hanley will be fine. He almost got a hit last night." And I don't know what the numbers would reveal, but I would bet the number of passed balls and wild pitches are way down from Baker's numbers. Especially those "wild pitches." I do have to agree that I think Hayes should fill in a bit more. The first couple months it was questionable if we even had a second catcher. I'm not a fan or a hater of Buck's. But the title of this thread is as head scratching as trying to blame one player for us not making the playoffs in '09 when so many others are doing so bad.
June 25, 201114 yr Didn't look like he was hustling on that last play tonight. that's disappointing. Can people stop saying this? He's just very slow.
June 25, 201114 yr And I don't know what the numbers would reveal, but I would bet the number of passed balls and wild pitches are way down from Baker's numbers. Especially those "wild pitches." 20 WP+PB in 583 innings for Buck. One every 29 innings. 64 in 1538 innings for Baker. One every 25 innings. Way down? I guess.
June 25, 201114 yr And I don't know what the numbers would reveal, but I would bet the number of passed balls and wild pitches are way down from Baker's numbers. Especially those "wild pitches." 20 WP+PB in 583 innings for Buck. One every 29 innings. 64 in 1538 innings for Baker. One every 25 innings. Way down? I guess.
June 25, 201114 yr I don't think people realized how hurt Baker was. He'll probably get healthy and the Marlins won't pay him in arbitration and he'll do well for someone else. No one will take Buck off our hands at this point so either Baker or Hayes have to go when Baker return. Who do you keep to sit and watch Buck earn 6 million for hitting .215? Baker who will make over a million in arbitration or Hayes who will still be at the minimum next year? You got it, Hayes. Why because this is the Marlins we're talking about. Not the Phillies, not the Red Sox, not the Yankees, THE Marlins. You want to live in South Florida, then you have to take the good with the bad, and right now the Marlins are BAD.
June 26, 201114 yr Yes he sucks we know, the bigger mistake was signing him for 3 years not 1. I would rather worry about the catcher situation after 1 year than sign an an average one at best for 3.
June 26, 201114 yr Average players are fine when you can fill in the roster with Logan Morrison, Mike Stanton, Hanley Ramirez, and 2011 Gaby Sanchez. It's getting good production from 2B, 3B, and CF, plus healthy pitching, that is going to be the tough part this year and next.
June 26, 201114 yr Average MLB players are worth $6 mil a year. If he's average, the contract is fine.
June 26, 201114 yr You boys leave hunky John alone.Now he tries hard and he is our man. Don't put him down, but Cheer him to Victory, yay!
June 26, 201114 yr Average MLB players are worth $6 mil a year. If he's average, the contract is fine. Well, in Fangraphs WAR for NL catchers (min 150 PA), he's ranked 11 out of 15. Now, that's current performance, so if you look at his career numbers he might be closer to average. However, many of the guys in that "average" range have much lower contracts on the books. Carlos Ruiz is in the average range. Before last season he signed a 3 year deal worth only $8.85 million. Ramon Hernandez is in the above average category. He's a little older than Buck is, but he was solid last year and hitting well this year. He's only on the books for one year (2011) and $3 million. Molina is paying paid about the same, but his career numbers are better and he's sort of a St. Louis franchise player now. Most of the guys on that list are still club-controlled, but if you are using the rest as a benchmark, there really isn't anything there to indicate that the contract is "fine." I think something like 2 years/$8 million is about what I'd be comfortable paying him.
June 26, 201114 yr Average MLB players are worth $6 mil a year. If he's average, the contract is fine. Well, in Fangraphs WAR for NL catchers (min 150 PA), he's ranked 11 out of 15. Now, that's current performance, so if you look at his career numbers he might be closer to average. However, many of the guys in that "average" range have much lower contracts on the books. Carlos Ruiz is in the average range. Before last season he signed a 3 year deal worth only $8.85 million. Ramon Hernandez is in the above average category. He's a little older than Buck is, but he was solid last year and hitting well this year. He's only on the books for one year (2011) and $3 million. Molina is paying paid about the same, but his career numbers are better and he's sort of a St. Louis franchise player now. Most of the guys on that list are still club-controlled, but if you are using the rest as a benchmark, there really isn't anything there to indicate that the contract is "fine." I think something like 2 years/$8 million is about what I'd be comfortable paying him. Ruiz deal covers his arbitration years, not comparable. Hernandez is a RHP platoon catcher and can't physically handle playing everyday. Yes, he is destroying right handers, but the Marlins needed an everyday catcher who has the ability to max out at 130+ starts, not a 80 start guy. It is also likely Hernandez will get a much larger contract if he ends this year with a .900 OPS vs RHP to be a part time catcher/DH in the AL. But regardless, Bob is right that the general "average" player for a position in free agency usually makes in the $5-7 range in free agency. As long as Buck is average, it's not that bad of a deal. And combined with the lack of catching depth in the organization, there is added value to that. Also, if we're going to do a statistical analysis, Bucks's career BABIP is .285, and 2009-2010 between the Royals/Jays (about 600 AB), it was about a .325. Buck has a .244 BABIP as of right now. He has seriously jumped his BB rate (up 5% from 2010 and 2% from career rate) and decreased his K rate (down 5% from 2010, down 3% for career). His line drives are down a little, 1.5%, but his GB/FB are about career norm. Basically, he is being more patient, making more contact, not sacrificing a lot of well hit balls, and has been immensely unlucky when he hits the ball. Despite his slash line there are strong indicators of a performance jump coming here. I think some struggles were expected a little with a league change and all new pitchers, where Buck absolutely is thinking to much and trying to figure out how they pitch because he is such a bookworm, but at a minimum, I think 40 average points are coming very soon as it normalizes and that's going to add a lot to the slash, as you can already start to see with the slugging jump in June. April .202/.272/.357 May .205/.298/.337 June .240/.313/.413 He also currently has a .9 WAR, meaning he is slightly over a 2 WAR rate for the year despite his offense. If he had a 2.0 WAR in 2010, that would be tied for the 16th best catcher. In 2009, that would be 12th. In 2008 15th. Let's see where this is at the end of the year, but I find it very likely Buck ends up in the top 12-18 catchers overall this year, and that would make year 1 of this signing pretty solid.
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