I just can't imagine firing Beinfest because it will be hard to replace him with someone better than him. I believe if we give him a payroll good enough to compete with other major league teams, he will put together a damn good team.

 

 

That right there is the problem, to win games you need good ball players, good ball players cost money. While this team may look good on paper, paper doesn't always translate to reality.

 

The problem with this team losing is the players, they can fire the entire FO the manager all the assistant coaches and it will make zero difference. Until we start seeing the new ballpark money being used, the marlins making the playoffs is a wet dream. Imagine the impact Michael Young would have had on this team playing 3rd everyday. If we would have spent the cash on him we would probably still be over .500.

 

Oh well f*** this team.

 

 

They've spent money.

 

The players that they've spent money on have underachieved, for the most part. Not everything in the world is Loria's fault.

 

Loria paid good money for Hanley, Buck, Javy Vazquez, Josh Johnson, Ricky Nolasco, etc. He paid more money than usual for his bullpen. He's paying Wes Helms a million dollars.

 

Spending more money isn't always the solution.

There's a good chance that this team would be no better had they given Dan Uggla and Cody Ross a combined 17-18 million.

I just can't imagine firing Beinfest because it will be hard to replace him with someone better than him. I believe if we give him a payroll good enough to compete with other major league teams, he will put together a damn good team.

 

 

That right there is the problem, to win games you need good ball players, good ball players cost money. While this team may look good on paper, paper doesn't always translate to reality.

 

The problem with this team losing is the players, they can fire the entire FO the manager all the assistant coaches and it will make zero difference. Until we start seeing the new ballpark money being used, the marlins making the playoffs is a wet dream. Imagine the impact Michael Young would have had on this team playing 3rd everyday. If we would have spent the cash on him we would probably still be over .500.

 

Oh well f*** this team.

 

 

They've spent money.

 

The players that they've spent money on have underachieved, for the most part. Not everything in the world is Loria's fault.

 

Loria paid good money for Hanley, Buck, Javy Vazquez, Josh Johnson, Ricky Nolasco, etc. He paid more money than usual for his bullpen. He's paying Wes Helms a million dollars.

 

Spending more money isn't always the solution.

There's a good chance that this team would be no better had they given Dan Uggla and Cody Ross a combined 17-18 million.

 

 

You are absolutely correct in that they have spent money, their 57 Million dollar player salary proves that. Unfortunately and I understand its not necessarily Loria's fault that Buck and Vazquez have stunk all year. Its debatable on whether they were good signings to begin with but that is an entirely different conversation.

 

While yes they have spent money it is obvious now that they will need to spend MORE money to get this team to be able to compete in this division. We need to focus on signing ball players in the future that are not riding what looks to be a fluke season like Buck or one really good season like Vazquez (yes I know he had a few other good seasons in the past). We need to focus on veteran ballplayers that have shown consistency throughout their career but unfortunately they don't come cheap.

 

I personally liked the Uggla deal, I am a bit disappointed at how Dunn has turned out but even with Infante struggling at the plate I would rather have a good defensive 2nd baseman than Uggla.

the Miguel Cabrera trade was a complete disaster.

 

Cabrera was one year from walking away for NOTHING other than two draft picks. He could have had a Struggla-like crappy 6th year and wound up being a type B FA resulting in only one pick.

 

They got two top-rated prospects and four minor prospects. Turns out that the only one who worked out here was Hopper. They got Webb and Mujica for Maybin. It could have been worse, all 6 could have bombed. Just as any FA draft pick(s) they might have gotten could have been total failures.

 

So, no, we didn't get "nothing in return" for Cabrera, we got, directly and indirectly, 3 guys on the current roster. Far from being a "complete disaster," it was a good-looking prospect package gotten for a guy when we had little leverage, with a decent end-result that might have worked out better. Such is life in MLB. Be happy we found and signed Cabrera in the first place.

 

In any case, THEY COULDN'T AFFORD TO SIGN HIM LONG-TERM, period. They couldn't even afford another expensive year of arbitration, especially considering that they'd lose all trade value. Not to mention that they fobbed off Willis, a $30 million hole-in-the-ground for Detroit in the same deal. They got the best deal they could.

 

How many times do the facts have to be recited?

 

This year's payroll is Loria's highest ever, other than a couple of million more in '05 and it will be significantly higher next year, probably around 80 million, assuming he doesn't go nuts to make a big splash.

 

Ticket sales are good, slump notwithstanding, so who knows? It's a crucial year coming up and Loria has been known to spend when he sees a potential return (as he already has this year,) and he's never had a better set of circumstances under which to take a shot than he will next year. As he did with Delgado in '05, only to be forced to retrench when nobody showed up.

 

Even 80 million is a more-or-less average-MLB-payroll team. In a brand new stadium that took 19 years to get. A far cry from the usual circumstances here, kvetching about Beinfest being a mere mortal and not some sort of infallible baseball god notwithstanding.

 

Their June slump was mainly an injury and player performance problem, not a FO problem, except to the extent that AAA Edwin and Mallee were in over their heads, and that's been dispensed with.

 

I'll never understand the totally unrealistic demands of many fans here, there seems to be a total lack of perspective.

 

We ain't the Cubs -- no WS wins in 102 years.

 

We ain't the Pirates -- 18 consecutive losing seasons.

 

We ain't the Padres, Rockies, Astros, Nats/Expos, Rangers/Senators, Mariners, Rays or Brewers/Pilots -- no WS wins, EVER.

 

290 seasons between those 8 teams. Almost 47,000 games played to no avail. Collectively, they make the Cubs look like pikers.

 

We've won two WS and are about to move into maybe the finest ballpark in all of baseball in a city where MLB didn't even exist 20 years ago. What the hell else do you want?

St. Claire is next to go, hopefully.

 

Why would anyone want to fire St. Claire?

 

Date/Starter/IP/H/ER/BB/SO

6/29 Nolasco 9.0 5 0 2 3

6/28 Vazquez 7.0 3 0 0 5

6/26 Sanchez 6.0 6 1 1 6

6/25 Volstad 6.2 5 2 0 2

 

Last 4 starts tot 28.2 19 3 3 16

 

ERA 0.94

WHIP 0.78

 

Those numbers are worthy of Philly's starters.

 

And the pen has been fine. At least St. Claire didn't come from AAA-world. They've lost 14 one-run games in a row. In a 31 game span. That's incredible, and maybe an MLB record. Paging Elias Sports Bureau...

 

There's been no generalized pitching failure. If anything, St. Claire deserves another contract, but that's obviously going to be subject to the whole "who manages next year" thing.

 

Now, the quality of pitching in the last 4 games is probably much more of a commentary on the effect of Jack than St. Claire. But, St. Claire's prior work with these guys was there as a base for Jack to exhort more effort from them and St. Claire most certainly isn't responsible for the failure to score less than 3 runs (2.81 to be exact) per game while they went 4-23.

 

The lack of hitting caused Mallee to disappear when they were 1-7 on the first bad streak. The FO was on top of it, not that they could do anything immediate about hitting. So, 12 pitiful games later they hired Jack.

 

I find no fault with St. Claire.

I just can't imagine firing Beinfest because it will be hard to replace him with someone better than him. I believe if we give him a payroll good enough to compete with other major league teams, he will put together a damn good team.

 

 

 

Please give me some of what you are smoking, got to be some good stuff.

The lack of cash for this team was reflected in depth. The fact that a platoon was needed at 3B, the bench suffered, once that platoon had more issues the bench was barely holding on, once ANYONE else had a problem, the bench fell apart.

 

The Rotation was 3 deep, once we lost a starter it started to wreck the pen, add on a 3 week Nolasco disaster and it was all she wrote for the month.

the Miguel Cabrera trade was a complete disaster.

 

Cabrera was one year from walking away for NOTHING other than two draft picks. He could have had a Struggla-like crappy 6th year and wound up being a type B FA resulting in only one pick.

 

They got two top-rated prospects and four minor prospects. Turns out that the only one who worked out here was Hopper. They got Webb and Mujica for Maybin. It could have been worse, all 6 could have bombed. Just as any FA draft pick(s) they might have gotten could have been total failures.

 

So, no, we didn't get "nothing in return" for Cabrera, we got, directly and indirectly, 3 guys on the current roster. Far from being a "complete disaster," it was a good-looking prospect package gotten for a guy when we had little leverage, with a decent end-result that might have worked out better. Such is life in MLB. Be happy we found and signed Cabrera in the first place.

 

 

 

 

I usually agree with your points on Loria, etc., but I'm not sure why you're trying to spin the results of this trade.

 

It's foolish to debate this after the result because you're right in the sense that Maybin and Miller were top prospects. However, there's no question that we basically got nothing out of the deal. We got a replaceable reliever (Badenhop) and indirectly got two other replaceable relievers (Webb, Mujica); the fact that Maybin turned into Webb/Mujica is a disappointment.

 

When you trade one of the best hitters in the game and get one (or three, if you want to spin it that way) replaceable relievers in return, it's like getting absolutely nothing. It's a trade that has single-handedly set the franchise back some years.

When you trade one of the best hitters in the game and get one (or three, if you want to spin it that way) replaceable relievers in return, it's like getting absolutely nothing. It's a trade that has single-handedly set the franchise back some years.

 

 

Yet the results do not makes it a bad trade. Trades inherently bring risk, the Marlins got top value for what they offered and it didn't work. This is a clear indication of the maxim that you can do everything right, and fail. Cabrera was not going to be on this team without a stadium, the team would not get the loans for a stadium with the financial position a Cabrera signing would have brought. He was going to go.

 

It appears that the Dodgers deal might have been better, except that the very pieces that we point to are the ones that the Dodgers dithered on parting with. As for the Angels, lets not pretend that Howie Kendrick has been some kind of superstar. Maybin and Miller were top-of-the-sport prospects (the Stanton and Strasburg of their day), consequently Detroit had the best package.

I just can't imagine firing Beinfest because it will be hard to replace him with someone better than him. I believe if we give him a payroll good enough to compete with other major league teams, he will put together a damn good team.

 

 

 

Please give me some of what you are smoking, got to be some good stuff.

 

How about you say something useful instead of saying stupid sh!t.

The problem with the Dodgers deal was that the Marlins were asking for too big of a package so a deal was never officially on the table. The Marlins probably could have gotten Matt Kemp and a couple of lesser names and it would have been a better deal and not just in hindsight.

 

Kemp would have been a much safer pick because he already had already shown he could hit some MLB pitching, unlike Maybin who was carelessly rushed to the majors by Detroit.

 

In other words, I think that if the Marlins were a bit more reasonable, they could have worked out a deal with the same potential reward, but with less risk involved.

Maybin and Miller were highly ranked prospects, but they were both at a level where they were an incredibly risky return for Willis/Cabrera.

 

In a possible LA deal, the Marlins wanted several of these names supposedly:

Kemp

Broxton

Loney

Billingsley

Kershaw

LaRoche (bust)

 

I wonder if they could have gotten away with just Kemp and Billingsley. I would have liked that deal more (not speaking in hindsight). My first reaction to the Cabrera trade was disappointment that they could not work out something with LA.

Yea, the Tigers deal was the definition of a boom or bust type of deal from the beginning. Still, at the time, I loved the deal because I thought we would develop Maybin and Miller properly rather than rush them.

When you trade one of the best hitters in the game and get one (or three, if you want to spin it that way) replaceable relievers in return, it's like getting absolutely nothing. It's a trade that has single-handedly set the franchise back some years.

 

 

Yet the results do not makes it a bad trade. Trades inherently bring risk, the Marlins got top value for what they offered and it didn't work. This is a clear indication of the maxim that you can do everything right, and fail. Cabrera was not going to be on this team without a stadium, the team would not get the loans for a stadium with the financial position a Cabrera signing would have brought. He was going to go.

 

It appears that the Dodgers deal might have been better, except that the very pieces that we point to are the ones that the Dodgers dithered on parting with. As for the Angels, lets not pretend that Howie Kendrick has been some kind of superstar. Maybin and Miller were top-of-the-sport prospects (the Stanton and Strasburg of their day), consequently Detroit had the best package.

 

 

I agree with this.

 

I'm just saying there's no reason to try and spin the overall result.

I don't think there's a need to fire or trade a bunch of guys. The core of the lineup is young, let them take their lumps.

I don't think there's a need to fire or trade a bunch of guys. The core of the lineup is young, let them take their lumps.

 

Agreed, definitely.

 

However, you need to update your signature.

Wow people I never said the Cabrera trade didn't seem so lopsided at the time it was done. Yes we got two highly rated prospects. I'm just saying, as Erick stated, the end result was that it was still a complete disaster and set this franchise back tremendously. The Marlins may never have another player with as much trade value as a Cabrera.