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Strong push for Chapman and Jansen coming


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Yeah I agree also with the point of go for it or totally blow it up. Just trading ozuna and Ramos accomplishes nothing.  If you aren't going for it, then you have to trade stanton, yelich, dee, everyone.

 

 

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Age isn't the reason he would sell.  No better time than after he got the ASG. Longest time now until the next one plus all those ballpark penalties are over and the contracts are about to become more expensive, especially Stanton 

 

If not age/health, why would he sell? Sure, he's greedy, but he clearly loves owning a baseball team and wants to win. He just doesn't know how to win. As squall put it, he's his own worst enemy.

 

 

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Neither option is really going to produce a competitive team in 2017. I think they shouldn't blow things up right before the ASG because it's a bad PR move. That's why I'm inclined to sell off the less important pieces like Ozuna and Ramos and hope for the best.

 

I'm generally down on Ozuna and don't think he's a consistently great player. I think they should dump him ASAP before other teams realize that he's more of a player that he was in the second half, rather than the first.

 

So, would you deal Stanton & Yelich following the 2017 season? If the thought process is that the team is nowhere near winning, they should trade Stanton as soon as possible. His trade value doesn't exactly become better with the years.

 

 

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Yeah I agree also with the point of go for it or totally blow it up. Just trading ozuna and Ramos accomplishes nothing.  If you aren't going for it, then you have to trade stanton, yelich, dee, everyone.

 

If the Marlins trade Ozuna and Ramos for some decent young talent and Chen bounces back, the Marlins may not still be a good team, but in better position to buy next offseason (2017-2018). That FA class looks to be MUCH better. And they would have more money to spend if they don't box themselves in buy signing Chapman.

 

I don't quite agree with the all or nothing mentality. The shitty FA class they are facing kind of justifies sitting on their hands a little until next season.

 

 

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If not age/health, why would he sell? Sure, he's greedy, but he clearly loves owning a baseball team and wants to win. He just doesn't know how to win. As squall put it, he's his own worst enemy.

This is well said too. Why would he want to leave? He loves this stuff and wants to honor Jose by winning with this team, so why cash out only a year later especially if he's going for it. Why not stay along for the fun of going for it?
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So, would you deal Stanton & Yelich following the 2017 season? If the thought process is that the point is nowhere near winning, they should trade Stanton as soon as possible. His trade value doesn't exactly become better with the years.

 

It depends. If the Marlins deal Ozuna and Ramos and don't take on some huge contract this offseason, and if the team isn't a total disaster, I would spend next offseason when the free agent options are more appealing. And keep Stanton and Yelich.

 

 

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Aside from a few guys we have no chance of signing (like maybe Yu Darvish?), next year's FA class kinda sucks too.

 

I also think that part of the reason why they want to sign a closer is because they'd feel more comfortable trading Ramos for assets in that case. I don't see the harm in that idea. 

 

I feel like this wouldn't get as much scrutiny if we were signing a good starter for $100 million. But it's been proven that elite relievers can be just as valuable, and I think these top 3 guys are elite.

 

 

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If an elite SP was on the market, I believe they'd be going for him. Since there isn't one, and they do want to try and compete this year, they are going after the elite closers.

 

 

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The game is also changing. You could make a case that elite closers, especially if used properly, are more worthy of their salaries than elite starters who are getting paid twice as much. There aren't many SP's anymore in this day and age worth that type of money.

 

There's more criticism so far for potentially signing an elite reliever than there was for giving Chen $80 million last offseason. I bet the elite reliever deal turns out to be better.

 

 

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There's more criticism so far for potentially signing an elite reliever than there was for giving Chen $80 million last offseason. I bet the elite reliever deal turns out to be better.

 

Agreed

 

Also, the Marlins would totally dump Chen if they could.

 

 

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I don't think that an elite closer is nearly as valuable as an elite starting pitcher is.

 

I agree with you and I don't think @Erick was saying that. Unless you think he thinks Chen is elite (he doesn't) There aren't any elite starting pitchers out there though.

 

 

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Agreed

 

Also, the Marlins would totally dump Chen if they could.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't that enthusiastic about the Chen signing. But I was pleased that they didn't sign him for more, because I was expecting a higher dollar amount.

 

 

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I don't think that an elite closer is nearly as valuable as an elite starting pitcher is. Chapman was a 2.5 WAR pitcher this past season. Jose was a 4.2.

 

My point is that there aren't that many Jose's anymore, and I think the game is shifting more toward building a staff around the bullpen because starters aren't throwing as many innings/aren't as effective third time through the order.

 

WAR is also a bad stat for relievers because their value is context dependent.

 

 

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I generally think the paying top dollar for a closer is idiotic. A better move is to cultivate closers like Capps who might not be as good as Chapman, but still damn good, and trade them for new talent.

 

Trading Capps was a dumb fucking move.

 

 

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Fair enough but what FA pitchers would fit that? Seems like a thin market and they don't want to deal any of the core pieces to get a SP via trade so it is either get some closers or do nothing.

 

Why keep ignoring the names of Hill and Hammel ?

 

 

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My point is that there aren't that many Jose's anymore, and I think the game is shifting more toward building a staff around the bullpen because starters aren't throwing as many innings/aren't as effective third time through the order.

 

WAR is also a bad stat for relievers because their value is context dependent.

 

I understand the role of leverage when valuing relievers, but in the end the overall number of innings is important. The Marlins rotation is weak enough that the 60 IP they get from Chapman won't make that much of a dent.

 

 

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I understand the role of leverage when valuing relievers, but in the end the overall number of innings is important. The Marlins rotation is weak enough that the 60 IP they get from Chapman won't make that much of a dent.

 

Innings are important, but not all innings are created equally.

 

We were also among the league leaders in blown saves last year, and it seems like we're near the top every year, as well. That's played into the team's consistent demise. It wouldn't hurt to have a true, shutdown reliever. 

 

+ it's quite possible that the rotation could be ok enough to compete with a deep bullpen. Our starters have had inconsistent careers, but they've proven capable of having good years throughout their inconsistencies.

 

 

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