Fishin2004

i said it when it was reported. if its just a 30 million gap, have all sides sit down and hammer something out. someone wasnt willing to compromise. who's story do you believe? Here's how we can tell it wasn't "just a 30 million dollar gap": the fire sale. If we had a whole bunch of money lying around when we had a payroll of $60-70 million - enough to fund most of the stadium ourselves but for $30 million bucks - why all of a sudden are we desperate to dump all of our salaries once the stadium is no longer in the picture? Shouldn't we just be using all that money that was supposed to be going to the stadium to fund the team? Shouldn't we have MORE money to play with now, not less? The reality is, that was a doctored number given to us by the Marlins to earn the support of the fans and the people of Florida, and hopefull get some momentum going that would make the State look bad for turning us down for refusing to give us "only" $30 million bucks. I'm not blaming the team here - they acted in good faith, put the best possible product out there that they could, in the hope of getting people interested. But as for which side was more at fault here for us not getting a stadium, let's not be too quick to blame the state. The team's actions this past month are speaking louder than their words ever did.

Marquis has one more year of arbitration eligibility, and he made $3 million last year. Beckett had 2 more years of arb eligibility and made $2.4 mill. re: FishFan's post - I see him having played since the middle of 2000. (from ESPN.com). So it looks like his arby years are almost done.

Yeah...i mean, i can't see how you can look at our current fire sale and believe anything the team was saying about how they were $40 million dollars away from getting a stadium. If they had that kind of money lying around, why are we so desperate to get rid of Lowell that we give away Beckett? So blame Samson if you want, but don't blame him for asking for too much money...blame him for intentionally painting a rosy financial picture when clearly that was not the case.

This is just like when the Beckett deal was put on hold....all it means for us is postponing the inevitable.

I don't think that this set us back too far, because frankly there's not much further we could be set back. We annually have one of the worst attendances in baseball. So, this won't set us back with our own fan base, becuase our fans can only barely pay any less attention than they already have been. And as for the national response, I got bad news for you guys - from what I've witnessed, outside of South Florida, the Marlins are only marginally considered a real team. I've lived in New York City and Washington, DC (two cities with NL East teams), and everyone I ever met was utterly shocked to meet a Florida Marlins fan. They treat us as if we're still a first-year expansion team, even though we've been in the five years longer than the Diamondbacks. So I don't think this will rattle anyone's perceptions of the Marlins outside of Florida, because outside of Florida people barely respect the organization to begin with. The only place this will set us back is with other players in MLB. It's gotta be clear to any player that if they sign with this team, they will not get a no-trade clause, and they will more than likely be dealt somewhere at some point. I can't believe any free agent will take us seriously for a long, long time after what we did to Delgado

I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if this has been discussed already, but...why does this have to be the first in a long line of salary-dumps? It seems to me that maybe this is the kind of move you make so you can rid yourself of a ton of salary in one fell swoop and then NOT have to make those other moves. Think about it - if their only goal was to dump salary, why throw Beckett into the mix? They could just give Lowell away for a mid-level prospect to some rich team if they were really only concerned about $$$. Seems to me that if the cost of being able to field a productive, competitive team next year is losing Beckett, it might be worth it.

and one more thing...if Albert Pujols is 25, i will eat my hat. he takes off his hat and looks like he's in his mid-thirties.

C: Joe Mauer, 22, Twins 1B: Albert Pujols, 25, Cardinals 2B: Rickie Weeks, 22, Brewers 3B: David Wright, 22, Mets SS: Bobby Crosby, 25, A's OF: Miguel Cabrera, 22, Marlins Grady Sizemore, 23, Indians Carl Crawford, 24, D-Rays Utility Infielder: Jose Reyes, 22, Mets SP: Rich Harden, 23, A's Jake Peavy, 24, Padres Mark Prior, 24, Cubs Dontrelle Willis, 23, Marlins Carlos Zambrano, 24, Cubs Closer: Francisco Rodriguez, 23, Angels Good to see a couple of Fish getting some love, although I think you could of had Beckett on there as well, but I guess I shouldn't complain. 906277[/snapback] well, duh. if Miggy and Dontrelle weren't on this list, the writer would have been fired.

Ok, this guy was garbage with us. Straight unadulterated garbage. And then he went to the Yanks and has become a force to be reckoned with. It's not because of the Yanks defense, their defense sucks. It's not due to the different ballparks. New York is even more prone to negatively affect a persons performance. So what the heck changed? What epiphany did this guy have that made him go "well I think I'm going to stop being a crappy pitcher whos a waste of a roster spot."??? 902952[/snapback] same with Tanyon Sturtze, remember....he is a key part of the Yanks bullpen now, one of their most reliable relievers. we cut him during spring training last year, he was terrible.

Everything I have read seems to indicate that Vargas started last night primarily because of the doubleheader on Monday. After last night's solid performance, has there been any indication whether or not he will replace Valdez or Moehler in the 5-man rotation? I can personally see both sides...on one hand, he's been great as a starter. on the other hand, he would be a great weapon out of the bullpen too, which would allow us to use him selectively in more critical situations. thoughts?

I thought Delgado was supposed to return today? Are they giving him additional rest just to be safe? 887373[/snapback] yeah, that's the point....every day he's "supposed to return today." latest news is that it's not looking like he's gonna return tomorrow, either. as for DL'ing him - i think he's a critical enough player that, as long as there's a chance he could play against the Reds this weekend, we have to keep him off the DL. however, unless they're sure to get him back, they should DL him in time for the Colorado doubleheader - we'll need as many players as possible for those games.

It doesn't seem like anyone in the organization has really displayed any concern about the seriousness of Delgado's elbow injury. it started out as a "day off" and then we've been given a series of "he should start tomorrow"s. Jack keeps acting like there's no rush to bring him back, as if these are not critical games. but these are critical games, and now he's missed 6 of them. The latest news is that he tried to take some swings yesterday and the elbow was still bothering him. Is anyone else getting nervous?

i'm sure a prolonged slump like Mike's makes clubhouse relationships very tricky. On one hand, Lowell must try to stay positive and his teammates must try to stay supportive. But as time goes on, especially if the team is losing, Lowell probably is grouchy most of the time, and his teammates must grow to resent him as time after time he fails to come up big when the team needs him. this, like everything, will be easily solved if\when lowell starts hitting again.

"In the end, the only difference-making starter on the market was Burnett. Teams scrambled to get him. The Phils, according to sources, offered Vicente Padilla, Kenny Lofton and Urbina for Burnett and centerfielder Juan Pierre. The Marlins weren't interested in seeing Burnett end up with an NL East rival, though. That didn't stop the Phils from trying to make a three-way deal for Burnett over the last 48 hours, but by then the Marlins had decided to keep Burnett because they were winning, he was pitching well, and their clubhouse would have turned mutinous had they dealt him." No wonder Ed Wade is such a joke and Beinfest is a genius. 883144[/snapback] oh man, what an offer! how could we turn that down??!!

Isn't Lowell the team captain?

new rumor Mets Get, Manny Ramirez and 15 million bucks Redsox Get, Mike Cameron and Lastings Milledge no clue on how accurate this is 881122[/snapback] here's a question: would you do AJ + Lowell + Stokes for Manny + $15 million? 881135[/snapback] Red Sox won't, and I don't know if the Marlins would either. That's a lot of money to take on for a guy who is always pissy about something. I mean, if we're taking on that kind of money, why not just give AJ his contract? 881141[/snapback] good point re: AJ. But i will say this - swapping Lowell out for Manny + $15 mill, the net increase to our payroll would be just $7 mill over the next 2 years ($15 mill in year 3). I think adding 3 years of Manny for $7 mill, $7 mill, $15 mill is a better use of our limited payroll than adding AJ for 4-5 years of $11 mill.

new rumor Mets Get, Manny Ramirez and 15 million bucks Redsox Get, Mike Cameron and Lastings Milledge no clue on how accurate this is 881122[/snapback] here's a question: would you do AJ + Lowell + Stokes for Manny + $15 million? 881135[/snapback] yes, but the RSox won't 881136[/snapback] i still think that's a much better offer than the Mets offer. and if the Sox are willing to toss $15 mill to a team that takes on Manny, if we could get rid of Lowell i think this deal would work for everyone.

new rumor Mets Get, Manny Ramirez and 15 million bucks Redsox Get, Mike Cameron and Lastings Milledge no clue on how accurate this is 881122[/snapback] here's a question: would you do AJ + Lowell + Stokes for Manny + $15 million?

The fact that it has been reported that the Red Sox are talking to the Marlins does NOT mean the Marlins are talking to the Red Sox. 880380[/snapback] :lol So the Red Sox are talking to themselves? Sportingnews Radio reported last night that the Marlins were "interested" in Ramirez -- so the talks were probably instigated from our side, not theirs. 880639[/snapback] nah - i'd guess that the red sox called pretty much every team that had a player on the trading block who they were interested in.

if we use the Mets offer as a guide, we would probably have to give up AJ and Hermida as a baseline (Milledge is the top Mets prospect right now). In order to make the money make sense, we probably would also have to send Lowell over - but Lowell doesn't really sweeten the deal, he probably makes it tougher to do. After that, I'm not sure. We would probably also need to get at least $15 million from the Sox in order to make the money sensible for us (putting Manny at roughly $15 million per year over the next three years). To get that kind of cash, we would need to give up something else big. Maybe Olsen or Stokes?

Feel free to delete this thread if this has been posted already....i looked and couldn't find it. http://www.sportingnews.com/experts/ken-ro.../20050729a.html Mets not the only suitors for Ramirez Posted: July 29, 2005 Yes, there's a chance that the Red Sox will trade outfielder Manny Ramirez before Sunday's 4 p.m. ET non-waiver trade deadline, and the Mets are not the only possibility. The Red Sox also are talking to the Marlins, Rangers and Blue Jays about Ramirez, industry sources say, though a three-way trade involving the Mets and Devil Rays remains the most tantalizing possibility. That deal, which would send Ramirez to the Mets along with Devil Rays closer Danys Baez, is nowhere close to complete, sources tell The Sporting News. "It's going to take a little time," an executive from one of the teams says. "But it's pretty legitimate." An official from a second team adds, "It's got a ways to go. We have two days left. There's still a lot of talking to do." A blockbuster of this magnitude faces numerous obstacles, not the least of which is Ramirez's contract, which will pay him $57 million from 2006 to '08. Thus, the Red Sox are exploring other possibilities. The Marlins, a team that relishes blockbuster trades, previously have discussed sending right-hander A.J. Burnett to the Sox in a deal that also might include third baseman Mike Lowell. They could revive that combination in a package for Ramirez. The Rangers nearly acquired Ramirez for Alex Rodriguez after the 2003 season. Their general manager, John Hart, is Ramirez's former G.M. with the Indians, and Ramirez would thrive in the hitter-friendly Ballpark in Arlington. A deal with the Blue Jays would appear far-fetched -- it is doubtful the Red Sox would trade Ramirez within their own division -- but Jays ownership has pledged to increase payroll by $210 million over the 2005, '06 and '07 seasons. Meanwhile, the rough outline of a three-way deal between the Sox, Mets and Devil Rays already appears to be in place: The Mets would receive Ramirez and Baez. The Red Sox would receive Mets outfielder Mike Cameron and Devil Rays outfielder Aubrey Huff. The Devil Rays would receive an elite package of prospects from both clubs. Among the possibilities: Mets outfielder Lastings Milledge and righthander Yusmeiro Petit and Red Sox catcher Kelly Shoppach and lefthander Jon Lester or righthander Anibal Sanchez. If such a deal was completed, the Mets would become a legitimate threat to win the N.L. East, and the Devil Rays' rebuilding program would accelerate rapidly. However, the Red Sox's chances of repeating as world champions would decrease, in part because they would not receive enough of an immediate return for Ramirez, one of the game's premier hitters. The deal also would not address the Red Sox's need for pitching, while costing them two top prospects from a farm system that is finally starting to gain strength. Finally, major league executives are skeptical that Devil Rays general manager Chuck LaMar would agree to a trade with so many moving parts in such a limited trade frame. LaMar is widely considered to be the most difficult G.M. to negotiate with, setting unrealistic values on his players. "Unless Tampa Bay gets Milledge and (top Red Sox prospect) Hanley Ramirez and Kelly Shoppach and two other pitchers, I doubt it could happen," says one G.M. who has recent discussions with LaMar. A year ago at this time, Red Sox G.M. Theo Epstein completed a stunning four-team trade that sent shortstop Nomar Garciaparra to the Cubs and brought first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz and shortstop Orlando Cabrera to the Red Sox. That deal helped the Sox win their first World Series since 1918. And to think, a Ramirez trade might be considered an even bigger coup.

Guys, This is the third time in nearly four seasons Manny Ramirez has requested a trade. He has yet to be traded by the Red Sox. In my opinion, Manny will not be traded due to his large, bloated contract. But, one possibility for the Marlins to acquire Manny Ramirez is to participate in a three team trade between the Marlins-Red Sox-Twins. Here is my proposed deal. Florida Acquires: OF Manny Ramirez SP Bronson Arroyo RP Chad Bradford cash Boston Acquires: SP A.J. Burnett 3B Mike Lowell RP J.C. Romero OF Jacque Jones Minnesota Acquires: 3B Bill Mueller 1B Kevin Millar RP Alan Embree This deal would benefit all parties involved. This would ensure the Marlins a World Series. Manny Ramirez in the Marlins lineup would be dramatically better than the Yankees lineup. Another scenario is another three team trade between the Marlins-Red Sox-Rockies. Florida Acquires: OF Manny Ramirez SP Bronson Arroyo RP Brian Fuentes INF Desi Relaford cash (from Boston) Boston Acquires: SP A.J. Burnett 1B Todd Helton 3B Mike Lowell cash (from Colorado) Colorado Acquires: 1B Kevin Millar 3B Bill Mueller RP John Riedling RP Alan Embree These trades make sense and I would like to get further comment about these trades. Thanks. P.S. The D-Train is back on the train tracks and is ready to roll! He's Rick James Bitches! 878754[/snapback] auughh. this thread is like a loose tooth that i can't stop playing with. it's so painful, but i keep going back. guys - you have to understand that getting Manny will take more than a 2-month rental of AJ and guys we don't want anymore (Lowell, Reidling). We couldn't get Mueller and Arroyo for AJ and Lowell right now - why in the world would we get Manny AND Arroyo AND cash (not to mention Fuentes) only by giving up Riedling, AJ and Lowell?

Hermida CANT go, I don't think.. untouchable 877948[/snapback] yeah, i'm not saying i'd support it. i'm saying that's what it would realistically take to make it happen.

What the heck we can dream can we.... Lowell AJ Juan for Manny A. Sanchez(AA pitcher) $$$$$ 877897[/snapback] wow, talk about greedy. so we get the best player in the deal AND the best prospect? and money? how much crack will we have to throw in? i do think that you're close to what it would take. but it would have to look more like this: Lowell AJ Juan Hermida for Manny $$$$$$ Manny's expensive, but he's also one of the greatest hitters in the league. To get him along with the money we'd need to be able to afford him, we'd have to give up a lot more than the guys we are dying to give up. it would have to pinch.

wait - you guys are scared of the Phillies???? if we get a good deal out of this, i laugh at the phillies if they trade Wagner for AJ. Great - they get AJ and all of his 7-8 more starts this season. But they lose Wagner in the process, and even if they kept Wagner they'd still be a 2nd-rate team with no real shot at the postseason. this should not be a dealbreaker.