PositiveHype

Why is it that Jeter always makes lousy errors, is not considered among the best defensive SS in baseball by truly knowledgable baseball people, and yet Yankees fans get upset when people made the comment last year the he won the gold glove by default because with Arod on 3B, Garciaparra in the NL, and Omar Vizquel past his prime, there wasn't any other good defensive SS in the AL to give it to. People also pointed out that he wouldn't have had any shot in the NL who has Kahlil Green, Cesar Izturis, Alex Gonzalez (Marlins), and had Edgar Renteria. They also hate the fact many people said that with Renteria in Boston now, that he would be the gold glove champ of the AL now, or at least Orlando Cabrera now that he will be in the AL the whole year. My point is, why complain about the truth? Jeter is a decent fielder, but not a gold glover when you compare him to the other truly good defensive SS in the game. I repeat what everyone said last year, he won by default, not to mention all of the hype that he gets by playing in NY.

I would dare to say that no manager has a set style. Depending on situation, style will differ. Yes, Larussa likes to squeeze in certain situations but not always. It cost him sometimes. Others have certain tendencies but to say any manager has a certain style (other than Weaver) may be somewhat over-simplifying the issue and especially with the Marlins. Most managers style is to do what it takes to win and in our case, this has not happened this year. 830755[/snapback] For the most part, many managers are like you say and are pretty much clones of one another that go "by the book." However, there are many managers that have a distinct method that they use to win. Some like "small ball," others like the Earl Weaver 3-run homer style, and then you have the cousin of "small ball" which is the Whitey Herzog "run the rabbits" style. Not to mention many others like the pitching related style of Sparky Anderson's "Captain Hook" style. McKeon seems to love the Earl Weaver way, which there is no problem with it, but we have a park that doesn't favor that offensive method. This stadium favors either the pure "small ball" style or Whitey Herzog's old style. Why is Jack using the Earl Weaver method? Part of being a good manager, is being able to identify what works with the players that you have and the park that you're in. Some managers are not necessarily good or bad, but are placed in situations that don't favor them. I think that Jack is one of these managers. He isn't good because he hasn't adjusted to this team or the stadium; if anything, he has adjusted away from everything. He is just an average manager that doesn't belong in a "small ball" park or in the National League. He can thank Ozzie Guillen for running the show in 2003. Ozzie has that distinct "aggressive" style that involves "small ball." You see, on Day 1, he convinced the White Sox front office that they couldn't win with Magglio Ordonez or so many power hitters and that they needed a speedster at the top of the lineup. They traded Carlos Lee and got Scott Posednik in a trade that helped both teams. He also convinced them to gamble on Jermaine Dye (who he knows from his days in Atlanta) who does more than hit HRs. I can go on forever on issues with managers and styles because I coach and am at the high school level, but I won't go on forever. In short, the teams problems start with the manager and his coaching staff. If the problems continue afterwards, then other changes need to be made. The only sure thing is that Admin Beinfest does a good job with his decision making.

Thank you for saying what I mostly agree with. Take a look at my other thread "Marlins Baseball 2005: This is crap." Pretty much, with a few exceptions, we are kind of on the same page. Instead of Bowa or Valentine, I would go with a Tony Pena or Davey Lopes type. They can also be long term solutions. I feel like you when it comes to Lowell and Pierre. I'd personally like to see their performance under another manager before I throw them under the bus. Unlike many Marlins fans now, I've had a problem with what Jack was doing since early 2004 when I saw that his strategical changes were not working. I realized fast that he lucked his way into the championship and rode Ozzie Guillen's back. Now, it's a time for change. It seems that many people feel that these players have no heart, but I think that many of them have a track record that show that they do. I think that we can throw the theory that they may be latest sports team to tank it in order to force a change of coaching pesonnel. No matter what line of thinking that anyone has, it is clear that a change is needed to make everything happy in Marlins land again. On another note, who would have ever thought that the Marlins and Heat on-field issues would be the talk of the town over the Dolphins?

Your perception of waiting for 3-run homers is one thing but I seriously doubt McKeon has changed his coaching style from 2003 till now. Teams change, players age and perform differently. It may appear that breaks were put on runners but he has stated that certain players still have the green light to run. They just are not as successful as in 2003. IMO, we had several key players have career-type years. Throughout the lineup, someone always stepped up (even D. Lee on occasions). You had Mordy and Castro who came through in the clutch off the bench. So blame the managers, coaches, FO for players not performing. Since we have only 2 hitters (Cabrera and Delgado), it would appear that the only way to score runs is a home run. 830724[/snapback] I agree with some of what you said, but as for 2003, Jack never implemented his style of baseball. He just made some minor adjustments and went with the status quo, which alot of it was run by Ozzie Guillen. It was in the spring of 2004 that Jack began to be the manager that he is when he started to completely implement his own style of baseball. It was from that point on that we saw pitchers breeze through our lineup after they got pass the number 4 hitter. It usually was followed by 2 innings of nothing by the offense or one of the 5th through 8 hitters killing a rally. Jack's excuse was that we needed another slugger, in particular, a lefthanded one, and the front office got him one. Now, we are still looking at the same thing once pitchers get passed our number 4 hitter. What's the problem now? I'm not dismissing Lowell's failure, but I'd like to see Lowell bat when he doesn't have to swing for a homerun nearly everytime. I'm guessing that he'll return to being the same hitter that he has been when the pressure wasn't on for him to take the ball deep nearly every plater appearance. As for Pierre, I think that preventing him from being what he is, is affecting him too. I feel that if he wants to run at will, even recklessly, let him so he can get into a nice flow. Also, if he wants to play everyday, let him. That whole notion of preventing him from tiring out is crap in his case. Last year, he had a better average in the second half than in the first. He seems to be a player that needs to stay in a comfort zone, which he was taken out of when Jack installed some brakes on him and this year deciding to give him some rest days. Again, let me see another manager and coaching staff handle this team before players are traded. Let me see Lowell and Pierre in situations like they have had in the past before we feel that something is wrong with them. Admin, please do something NOW!!!

Alot of negativity for a guy named "PositiveHype", don't ya think? 830705[/snapback] So, what's your point related to this thread? I'm not trying to be negative, but other than Willis, Cabrera, Delgado, Castillo, Gonzalez, Easley as a bench player, and Todd Jones, what is there on the Marlins to be positive about? Last I checked, we are performing well below ability and have lost 20 of our last 32 games, not to mention that we have scored less than 3 runs in 27 games this season and have a 3 and 24 record in those games. Here's a positive, the Marlins are 35 and 12 when they score 3 or more runs. If we score 3 or more runs in half of the games that we didn't, out the Marlins pace they would have a record of around 46 and 28, not the 38 and 36 clip that we are at right now. If they were doing that, we all would be a happy baseball community and be on here talking about how to strengthen our bullpen and when is something going to be done about the stadium issue. Instead, the Marlins are a joke and we are talking about players rumored to be traded and Jack and Bill being fired and many are wondering why is it taking so long. Can anyone think of any positive thing to say about the Marlins situation?

So you feel that the team is intentionally playing poorly until Jack and/or Bill Robinson is canned. :plain And I get so tired of hearing how Pudge was the leader of the '03 team. Ask anyone who was around the team in 2003. It just ain't so. 830690[/snapback] I know that my statement raises questions, but it wouldn't be the only time that it has happened in professional team sports. Yes, I definitely think that it is possible that the team is tanking it. We all may be thinking that they are playing with no heart, but none of us are in that dugout or in that locker room or hangout with the players before or after the games. This does go on in sports as much as many fans may not want to believe it. The Mets under Bud Harrelson were the most obvious baseball case. That's why I cited it. There was belief that Some of the L.A. Lakers teams after Pat Riley left did the same thing as well as MJ before Phil Jackson arrived in Chicago and recently it was reversed on MJ in Washington with the Wizards. There have been cases in the NFL as well, in particular with star players. Should I give other cases? I'm like any other fan and don't condone it, but to think that it doesn't exist is living in a fantasy. The athletes are human too and come up with some stupid notions as well to screw their bosses when they feel the need to. I'm not saying that the fish are doing this, but it needs to be considered. If it's not this, then Jack really has them mentally screwed up to where they can't perform consistently.

The reason that this team is falling is found in one name----Ozzie Guillen. When he was here, we saw a team that never quit and didn't make baserunning mistakes. Also, and most important, we didn't see a team that was waiting around for a 3-run homer like they are now. Admin, do something!!! How many games out of first do we need to be? 830674[/snapback] Don't know if I agree there is any one reason, but the archives herein will evidence that my support of Ozzie as Manager goes back two years. My next favorite is Mordy, but he needs at least a Season managing in the Minors. (That said, I'd like to see Cox fired and Mordy brought up right now to coach 3B. We need some "Ozzie energy" and Mordy is the closest we have.) I don't see Jack as a "team player" anymore. For him, it's all about Jack surrounding himself with his cronies. (Perry is the only exception.) 830679[/snapback] Mordecai at 3B is a good suggestion. I also agree with you greatly about Jack and his cronies. That is one of the reasons that I feel that almost the entire coaching staff needs to go with Jack and wait for the 3-run homer in the privacy of their own homes. It seems that we have the only Social Security eligible coaching staff in baseball. Even Bobby Cox brings in young coaches. It seems like we are looking at a baseball team from before the 1950s before basestealing started to be used more consistently. Yeah, Jack and his coaching staff were teenagers then weren't they? Let's do the math. It's so sad when someone stays in sports until they are embarrassed out of it.

Well, we dropped another one last night and it would have been our 3rd loss in a row if AJ didn't pitch so well on Sunday. I know that the front office may feel that they owe our coaching staff something because most of them were here in 2003, but at this point, it is safe to say that a change needs to be made. Waiting around for a 3-run homer isn't going to get the job done with this type of team nor in this type of stadium. The reason the fish won in 2003 was because of aggressiveness, lack of baserunning mistakes, and a "no quit" attitude. Has it all gone to Chicago with Ozzie Guillen? It seems so. I've seen a team perform like this before over a decade ago. It was the Mets of the early 90s under Bud Harrelson. It was made clear by the players that they wanted him out and they performed horribly until the Mets organization had no choice, but to let him go. I think that this is the case here right now. Too many players are unhappy with Jack and Bill Robinson and you can't trade an entire team. There are also too many questionable decisions both with hitting and pitching. Not to mention the baserunning mistakes that can be directly attributed to the 1B and 3B coaches (Robinson being one). Therefore, you have to change the entire coaching staff except for Wiley (for now). Deserving important notice, let's look at Jack and Bill's career. First, doesn't anyone notice that Bill Robinson was fired by the Mets organization because they had the same offensive problems and baserunning mistakes that the Marlins have now? Hmmm...Is it a coincidence that Bill was their hitting and 1B coach too? How about Jack? It was stated, after the Marlins re-signed him after the 2003 season, that usually Jack's first season with a team is his best and everything falls apart afterwards as he implements his style of baseball. It was even the subject of a segment on ESPN's "Baseball Tonight" back in late 2003. Let me see; Is that what is happening now? Back in 2003, Jack didn't change much except letting Ozzie Guillen do what he does and the team played aggressively and smart. Also, who wouldn't look like a genius if they get 2 rookies like Dontrelle Willis and Miggy Cabrera and just let them play. It also helped to have a leader like IRod, which we don't have now. Since then, starting with Spring Training 2004, Jack installed some breaks on our baserunners and has us waiting around for the 3-run homer. We saw in 2004 that after a pitcher got passed Cabrera and Lowell, it was easy coasting. So, when the wait for the 3-run homer method fails, Jack pulls off the Yankees solution to everything and convinces the front office that the team needsto spend money on another big bat. Then, we bring in Delgado. Guess what, Delgado is having a great year, but once again, once a pitcher gets passed the 3 and 4 hitter, he can coast for a couple of innings. The only change that needs to be done is the coaching staff. This is not an American League team playing in a hitter's park that can afford to wait for a 3-run homer. What sucks is that there are all of these rumors of the Marlins trying to shuffle the deck by trading players. This isn't necessary. I'd like to see another aggressive, younger manager get these players first before we start shipping anyone out. I hate the fact that nothing has happened after last nights performance. This sucks. This is crap. Admin do something!!!

The reason that this team is falling is found in one name----Ozzie Guillen. When he was here, we saw a team that never quit and didn't make baserunning mistakes. Also, and most important, we didn't see a team that was waiting around for a 3-run homer like they are now. Admin, do something!!! How many games out of first do we need to be?

I think without a doubt that it is WQAM right now. Boog is great though. Maybe he will bring his current station up, but they aren't even close right now to WQAM. Also, of note, I know that many people don't like Mandich or Golberg because they act like jerks at times, especially Goldberg, but you have to admit that they can be entertaining at times. Goldberg was really funny when he was on in the afternoons because after a long hard day at work, you can get a good laugh when some moron calls and says something that displays no sports knowledge and you just hear Goldberg with those classic insults. The only bad thing was that it got to the point that it seemed like people would call the show and purposely say something ridiculous to get him revved up. Finally, I like hearing the "Big O." He's been pretty good throughout his time there, with the one exception being when he got into that fight with the other radio person (I forget his name) during a broadcast. However, that was pretty funny too. The other classic moment was when at the Marlins 2003 Fan Fest, he and another host were interviewing Dave "The Paperboy" Sampson when Sampson made the now famous "I feel that the Marlins can win 91 games and make the playoffs..." statement. I remember that the "Big O" just started laughing on the spot before the interview continued with "Are you serious?" I admit that I started laughing too like many fans that heard that interview did. It was funny how WQAM kept playing that piece for ridicule for the first couple of months of the 2003 season and then again later that season to taunt Sampson by calling him a "genius." That was good radio. It helped that the Marlins won that year.

Well, we're a few weeks away from the first trading deadline and we are nearly at the half-way mark. What moves do you want the fish to make? I would like the following: A power hitting OF and another decent one while we deal Lowell to the AL (not that he has value right now) and move Cabrera to 3B. If Houston really is willing to deal Lidge because they are confident in Wheeler, I say make the deal. He puts the Marlins over the top with him closing and everyone else in the bullpen pitching in the 7th and 8th innings. Otherwise, see if you can secure 2 quality relievers, like maybe Eddie Guardado and someone else, depending on the price tag. If you can land a guy like Guardado and still aquire Mesa or Baez, that would be a no brainer, if we have the resources to aquire both. Move Leiter permanently to the bullpen and let our young lefty pitcher start some more. If he begins to falter, let Valdes take over. Also, they need to secure another decent starting pitcher, just in case Beckett's blister situation continues. Finally, I'd like to see another manager like Bob Brenly, Tony Pena, Davey Lopes, Jim Leyland, or someone else in place. This is what I would like to see this year. In the offseason, I know that this will be an unpopular opinion, but I would start to find out what Josh Beckett's trade worth is. I wouldn't do it after this season, but if he has another problem of any sort next season, I would make a move. Any way, what are all of your thoughts?

In the last couple months or so, there have been many rumors involving many players possibly being traded to either the Yankees or Mets. The sources of these rumors involve the New York Media outlets. Some of them have been so ridiculous to the point that even a New York based company like CBS with its Sportline website has used the disclaimer "...rumors out of New York..." to disassociate themselves from the rumors when they have been relaying them. Normally, when I hear or see something written about trades, I research what is being reported locally by the teams involved. Most of the trades that have reportingly involved the Mets or Yankees in the mentioned time frame have followed a pattern. Most of them start in New York, while the other team's local media has no clue of the information, which is odd because they have a direct connection with other team involved, especially since many reporters/writers have personal relationships with those teams' personnel. Then the rumor is reported nationally because the national media is mostly based in New York. Afterwards, there is debating among the other team's writers/reporters/fans on whether the rumors are credible. Finally, due to the constant discussion/debating, the rumors start to be acknowledged as existing even though in reality, there is no truth or reality to it happening at all. I'm a Journalism teacher and have to say, I understand that many reporters/writers live by, fictional character, Lois Lane's philosophy, "A good reporter doesn't report great news; they make the news great," but this is irresponsible journalism. It affects so many people, in particular the athletes and the officials in the organizations whose names have been put out there. And it's all due to some guys, who in most cases never played a sport, sitting in an office and making up some gibberish that he personally would like to see, like many couch potatoes do when they sit around and speculate and play fantasy GM among their buddies. In short, just look at the so-called trade "rumors" that have addressed Marlins' players going to the Yankees. How many local reporters/writers directly connected to the Marlins have reported these rumors as credible? Not too many, if any, but everyone is listening to someone sitting at his desk, in an office in New York, who has no ties with the Marlins, nor has been in Florida. Based on my researching of New York related rumors, this appears to be the case with rumors involving the Mets or Yankees with other teams around the country. In support of our local guys; I know that many of us may not agree with many of our media people, but you have to admit, for the most part, it isn't a common practice at The Sun Sentinel, Miami Herald, WQAM radio, or any of the other South Florida media outlets to report invalid information at the rate that their New York counterparts have. I think that New York media outlets, especially when it comes to sports reporting, should just call their work what it is---fictional fantasy. Any way, I got that off of my chest.

Mckeon is a better comedian than manager... 829325[/snapback] No kidding! That's how he deflects any criticism. I doubt the players think he's funny all the time. It's like being around the class wise ass day in and day out. It gets old very fast! 829338[/snapback] You're right on the money there. Usually the class wise ass or clown only does this because he's trying to hide his deficiencies and lack of self confidence. This seems to be the same case. Admin, don't give up on the season!!! Make the change now!!!

Jack has been outmanaged by alot of managers this year. Look at what Willie Randolph has done when the fish have faced the Mets. For almost the entire season, every other team is coming in aggressive and Jack is just sitting with his legs closed and that perplexed look on his face, while he forces all of us to just wait around for a 3-run homer. The 3-run homer usually comes in the third game of a series when we have already lost the first 2 because we can't score. Hey Admin, don't give up on the season; make the change now!!!

I'd Hire: 1. Kevin Kennedy 2. Bucky Denty 3. Davey Lopes ____________________________________________________________________ I like the names that you mentioned too. Of your picks, I definitely would go with Lopes. He's a former basestealer that could get the aggressive style back into the Marlins. I personally think that game strategy has been our problem. We need a manager that fits well with the type of team that we have, in particular working with our spark plugs, Pierre and Castillo. Lopes should work well with them. With him, I'd even bring in Whitey Herzog to serve as a bench coach like Zimmer did with Torre in New York. Also, Bowa would be a nice fit as a coach, maybe too risky as a manager. Lopes, why did I forget about him? He's a good one like a Tony Pena. It's almost like another Ozzie Guillen type when it comes to player expectations.

As far as Robinson as a hitting coach in 2003, I personally think that alot of the coaching staffs deficiencies were covered by Ozzie Guillen. Certainly the base running mistakes were. Ozzie controlled 3B and there were hardly any base running mistakes with the exception of a few. Now Robinson is on his own and look at the total number of base running blunders this season. As for 1986, the fact that his teams are incosistent year in year out indicates that it is the players doing the job as a whole. Obviously, when they struggle, he hasn't figured out what is wrong, but when they are in a good groove, he takes the credit and the rings. Tim McCarver was a very knowledgable baseball catcher in his time and he often criticized Bill Robinson's mistakes, even in the championship season, before Robinson was fired in New York.

If the Marlins make a managerial change, who would you want? I'll throw out the following names: Jim Leyland Bob Brenly Tony Pena Cito Gaston Lou Pinella (if D-Rays let him go) Darren Daulton (would you give a rookie a chance in the middle of a pennant race?) How about some older names? Davey Johnson (Is he any different from Jack?) Whitey Herzog (Could he get Pierre and Castillo with his wreckless running brand of baseball that was so successful in St. Louis during the 1980s?) Any more names out there that anyone likes?

Those of you that are long-time baseball fans, even before the Marlins' existence, don't you notice something about the Marlins hitting and base running errors in relation to Bill Robinson? Do you remember why he was fired from the Mets under the Davey Johnson Regime? It was for the same reasons that he may be fired here in Florida. They had a lineup that was somewhat similar to the Marlins in capabilities and Davey was often criticized for waiting around for the 3 run homer too much as well, which was blamed for some of their hitting problems in certain seasons. Compare lineups: Dykstra - Pierre Backman - Castillo K. Hernandez - M. Cabrera G. Carter - C. Delgado Strawberry - Lowell K. McReynolds/M. Wilson - Conine/Encarnacion H. Johnson/R. Knight - LoDuca R. Santana/K. Elster - A. Gonzalez Essentially, both teams had 2 excellent table setters at the top of the line up. They had somewhat the same type of combined power output and RBI production from their 3rd to 7th hitter and somewhat weak hitting SS based on the standards of their eras (mid/late 1980s vs 2005). Yet, Bill Robinson has failed with both. I'm not necessarily criticizing Bill Robinson (even though he should be out), but trying to provoke a thought. What are your thoughts?

The Pierre rumor is a New York originated rumor. It didn't start in South Florida. I think that it is safe to say that he isn't going anywhere. It is a New York fantasy. Even on CBS Sportline, they used the disclaimer, "...rumors out of New York..." in order to disassociate themselves from the rumor. This definitely makes you question it's credibility and the reporter that started it.