PositiveHype

I'm unsure of which one I'd pick because the D-Rays have a manager that wants to be fired, but the community loves him; the Marlins have a manager that doesn't seem to want to be fired, but a great number of the community wants him out. D-Rays have no hope with the current ownership while, I'd say that this ownership is probably the best in the Marlins' history (whew, did I say that?). D-Rays have a clubhouse where the manager is unhappy, but the playershaven't showed much emotion; the Marlins have a clubhouse where the players are unhappy, but the manager hasn't showed much emotion. The manager on both teams seem to be at the center of alot of both teams' problems. There are other things. I think that it's a tie.

1) Keep Lowell. 2) Trade AJ for prospects and a MLB ready pitcher. 3) Keep Encarnacion. 4) Trade some OK prospects for another pitcher and/or bullpen help. 5) Make managerial change immediately to end this madness. If you're waiting for this team to fall completely out of the race or lose 10 games in a row, it isn't going to happen. All that is going to happen is what has happened so far. We will be on the verge of making a change, then we'll string a couple of wins together. Then when everything seems OK, we'll fall back to .500 again. :banghead 866678[/snapback] It's kind of like having a sexy model for a girlfriend that seems like she's going to give you some "loving," but always stops you. Then, when she feels that you're going to dump her finally, she teases you with some false hope, only to stop you again and again until you finally realize many b0ner$ later, that you're not going to get that "loving." :plain :blink: :banghead

1) Keep Lowell. 2) Trade AJ for prospects and a MLB ready pitcher. 3) Keep Encarnacion. 4) Trade some OK prospects for another pitcher and/or bullpen help. 5) Make managerial change immediately to end this madness. If you're waiting for this team to fall completely out of the race or lose 10 games in a row, it isn't going to happen. All that is going to happen is what has happened so far. We will be on the verge of making a change, then we'll string a couple of wins together. Then when everything seems OK, we'll fall back to .500 again. :banghead

Here's my 2 cents or sense---whatever word works. It's simple the 2 possibilities are choice A) The talent is over-rated or B) Jack McKeon has never been a good long-term manager and not having Ozzie Guillen around is exposing him. The Facts are that as a team, the batting average is up there; the facts are that we have a Cy Young Award candidate; the facts are that we have one of the best 1-2 punches in the middle of our lineup; the facts are we have one of the best defenses; the facts are we have 3 of the most prized SPs in MLB wanted by many teams, with 1 available; the facts are that, with Pierre appearing to be nearly back to form, we have the best top 2 hitters in any lineup; the facts are that we have 3 of the top 10 players in the NL this year (Willis, Cabrera, Delgado) and 1 of the best all-around 2Bs in the game; the facts are that the fish are getting what was expected from A.Gonzalez and J. Encarnacion; I can go on and on. Yes, there are some down sides to all of this starting with our lousy bullpen, an injured "ace" SP, and what was once 1 of the top 5 3Bs in the game having his worst year, but the team's failures go beyond these problems. There are alot of things that INDIVIDUALLY are being done as expected, but have not come together as a unit to win this team games. Therefore, it isn't the talent or their lack of achievement. So, in short, many parts of the body are performing as expected (when it was all put on paper), but there is no head in the form of leadership. Is it the players' decision when to change a pitcher or who to bring in? If an inexperienced pitcher is brought in, is it the players' job to explain to them the difference between AAA or AA in contrast to MLB? Is it the players' decision when to do a hit and run (Have we even had one this year)? Is it the players' decision when to bunt or steal a base? MOST OF ALL, IS IT THE PLAYERS' JOB TO KNOW EVERY PLAYER'S ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT THEY CAN OR CANNOT DO FOR THE TEAM AND SELECT THE CORRECT PLAYER FOR EACH SITUATION OR CALL FOR THE SITUATION THAT THE PLAYER CAN SUCCEED IN? There are many other questions on whether it the players' job or not that can go on forever. The point is, if it's the players' jobs to make the decisions along with performing, why do they need a manager or coaches? With all of this out there, how can anyone still defend Jack McKeon and put all of the blame on the players when this team sits in last place and 1 game under .500? What manager would have a team score less than 3 runs in 30 games this year with guys like Castillo, Cabrera, and Delgado having the years that they had; The team looked strong enough to win with the expected numbers of LoDuca, A. Gonzalez, and Encarnacion; and, although he isn't playing up to his ability, Pierre isn't having a totally disastrous year and is still among the leaders in SBs; Lowell is essentially the only person having a totally useless season. Nearly every team in MLB has 1 guy that is performing below his expected production, but we're the only team that supposedly has offensive struggles because of it! Why doesn't anyone look at our lack of aggressiveness? Do we really need a 3-run homer to win or 4 hits, 4 walks, or combination of both to score a run in an inning? OK, our pitching is failing us lately, but we wouldn't be in last or under .500 if the opportunities to win weren't blown so many times earlier this season. Gammons repeated what so many have pointed out; "Jack usually wears out his welcome in his 3rd year..." I'd go as far as to say this; If Jack and Frank Robinson were to switch teams before the beginning of the season, I believe that Frank would have the Marlins in 1st by a long margin and Jack would have the Nationals in last. If you doubt it, just take off the Nats' in-season additions and compare the talent. There is no way that the Nats entered the season better than the fish. Admin, it's not the players!!! Please do the obviously needed move. How long will we deal with this madness? :banghead

I was just curious to know what you guys out there think about Lowell and his struggles. Some ppl have said that he used steroids and whatnot. I personally think that he has not used them, but I just want to know what everyone else thinks. 863985[/snapback] The answer in all likelihood is no, but you never know. We don't spend every second seeing what all of these players do, even if we know some of them personally. Also, to support the NO answer; if he had been on steroids, he would have never sucked in the second half of nearly every season. Steroids gives you strength for an entire year. Lowell's problems lie in that he is not sticking to basic fundamentals and is swinging at and trying to pull everything. Hell, I'm surprised that he hasn't swung at a pickoff throw to 1B yet. If he had a batting coach that can see that, he would have been hitting a long time ago. Also, if he had a manager that wasn't waiting for he and all of the middle-of-the-lineup guys to hit a 3-run homer, he wouldn't be putting so much pressure and anxiety on himself to hit one every at bat and he would start doing what has been his norm---going with the pitch and hitting alot of DBLs. :whistle

they have to interview a minority candidate, last time they got a slap on the wrists for bringing in McKeon without anyone else being interview. I guess they could interview Perez or Dawson as a sham interview if they wanted to. 861472[/snapback] Tony Pena and Davey Lopes are minorities. Because of their ancestral roots, they cover both Hispanic and African backgrounds in one shot each. I know because I'm also a dark-skinned Hispanic and we all cover both categories. Your post does make me think of another name. How about Chris Chambliss? He's long overdue. He's been waiting since Willie Randolph and Ken Griffey, Sr. were still playing. He was even considered for the Marlins original managerial opening and then again after Rene Lacheman was fired.

If McKeon has to be replaced, either Leyland or Pinella would be at the top of my list. Torborg and Girardi I don't like. Fregosi wouldn't be that bad, I would put him ahead of Torborg any day. 861461[/snapback] We agree. I would even search the through the T-Ball ranks before we bring back the serial arm killer. I personally would prefer my choices in the following order: 1) Pinella---I think that he would be the perfect fit for what is going on right now. Let's see the players underperform or whine under him. Can we say "go enjoy some splinters on your a$$ until you get on my page" or "bye-bye." 2) Jim Leyland---Welcome back to the ability to score without even getting a hit. 3) Tony Pena or Davey Lopes---Has anyone from this organization looked at these 2? They would be very refreshing. 4) Whitey Herzog---If you like old guys, don't you think that he's the guy that best fits a "small ball" park? 5) Bob Brenly---Why hasn't he been considered? He has a WS ring as a manager and is full of energy.

Use them both on the road and at home. I also would like to see the old teal helmets. I don't care if they standout. Is there a rule that says that we can only use one helmet?

Of the choices mentioned, I have to go with Leyland. I'm tired of seeing recycled losers like Fregosi and Torborg. Why the hell would they bring back Torborg? Is this a team trying to win or a team trying to give Torborg fresh arms to destroy? As for Girardi, I don't mind a completely new guy, but I am a little questionable of anyone favored by the ownership because managerial knowledge wins baseball games, not politics or the buddy system. We should know that from Torborg and our old buddy John Boles who needed to stay in the office instead of the dugout.

too bad no other teams have made mistakes or not traded players at the right time, or traded for the wrong players over the past 15 years. terrible post. 859639[/snapback] I'm not saying that they are the only organization in which this happen, but they seem to be the one that does it frequently. Where a team like Philadelphia had fans and players begging for Bowa to fired 2 seasons and NY begging for Valentine for the same length of time, it isn't a routine for them. The Marlins seem to have it as a tradition that seem to be continuing agin this year. Are they waiting for what will be the 2nd player uprising in a few years to oust a very unpopular manager? Haven't they looked at his history with other teams and former players? I think that this organization needs to stop waiting to do the obvious. This team isn't going to change under Jack no matter what players are on this roster. Right now, I bet alot of players could care less if they are traded away from this team and when any players are traded, we may hear quite a few comments on the way out that will open alot of eyes as to what's going on in this team. :banghead

I see a pattern in our team's history regardless of who owns it or who is the GM. I feel that the Marlins have been fortunate enough to have 2 of the best GMs in baseball since their inauguration in Dave Dombrowski and Admin Beinfest, but there is one problem that seems to not change here. It is the Marlins' traditional delay in getting rid of what should have obviously been booted out previously. Examples are as follows: Bryan Harvey (RP) ***Boy, did Dombrowski blow that one; we could have had Admin "Chipper" Jones if Dave didn't get greedy and want quite a bit more. Rene Lacheman (manager) ***Hey, he knew how to get himself thrown out of the game to make us forget that the fish lost. Richie Lewis (RP) ***never saw a lead that he didn't want to blow. Orestes Destrade (1B) ***Big difference between those Japanese parks and the Bermuda Triangle over here. Junior Felix (RF, or at least that was where he stood) Todd Dunwoody (OF) ***And you say that he's better than Preston Wilson, Cliff Floyd, and Mark Kotsay??? Vic Darensbourg (RP) ***I even joked when he was finally traded that his departure would be worth about 10 more wins because he wasn't around to blow any more leads or make blowout victories into drama-filled intrigue. Gregg Zaun ? ***How many times did he play catch with the CF when he was trying to throw out a basestealer? John Boles (manager) ***Did we really have to wait for an uprising? Wasn't the embarrassment of being outmanaged by Bobby Valentine in NY enough? Jeff Torborg (manager) ***And why was he managing again after the fiascos in Chicago and NY? OH yeah, he's friends with the Lorias. Anything longer than his first day or any SP throwing 150 pitches was too long. Did we have to have to wait until Burnett joined the likes of Len Barker, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Bobby Thigpen, Sid Fernandez and several others as pitchers whose careers were ruined or setback by Torborg? There are many other names that I can come up with that were here too long, but I won't go on forever. So now I come to our current, "seems to be here too long" names; Jack McKeon and Bill Robinson. I have to copy-and-paste a little from what I wrote on John Boles for Jack McKeon, but I'll make some changes as needed. Here goes: Do we have to wait for an uprising? Isn't the embarrassment of being outmanaged by nearly every manager in baseball enough? For Bill Robinson ***Hmmmm, I'm no genius, but the fact that he was fired by the Mets because of offensive underachievement and inconsistency along with baserunning mistakes by the players seems to follow the pattern that we see here. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so. That would be like saying that it has been just coincidence that Jeff Torborg is always at the scene of a pitching injury. I deon't entirely absolve the players, but you can't get rid of all 25. Bringing in others would not make a difference because they would just be trying to be part of the team and that's kind of scary right now with so muck dissatisfaction with the manager and coaching staff. Anyway, I had to get that off of my chest. Admin, please do something!!! What are you waiting for? :banghead 859605[/snapback] Oops, I forgot to mention that I did revisit my joke about Vic Darensbourg many months later because he was part of that Juan Pierre trade and the Marlins did win 10 more, made the playoffs, and won the WS. It was a corny joke, but anything pro-Marlins was fun when they won the championship. As for the Chipper part, all I can remember that the names floating around were a package of Ron Gant along with 1) a choice of Wohlers, Stanton, or Mecker and 2) a choice of Chipper or Klesko. I don't remember everything in it, but do remember that Dave got greedy. No matter who he would have accepted, the fish would have at least got something for a pitcher that got injured again and was done. I also forgot to mention another current name that needs to go. Nate Bump seems to be following, although to a lesser degree, the tradition of Richie Lewis and Vic Darensbourg. Except that he isn't lefty nor takes a deep breath before he enters the game like Darensbourg used to. I'd also keep an eye on Logan Kensing. Maybe before we trade Lowell, we should have Kensing throw practice with him. I'm sure that Lowell slump will be permanently over. :mischief2 As for me being questioned about my name in relation to my posts. I'm being honest about what I see. I am a fan that believes that there isn't too much wrong with the talent and am bothered that many people think that the "cure all" is trading alot of players. Sorry, but I'd like to see another manager that plays "small ball" get this group before I trade anyone because I see too many mistakes occuring and too much base-to-base running. All I hear out of Jack and Bill and many others is that we don't have good situational hitting. Well, I have to ask, since when is the only way to score with base stealers is by getting those extra hits? Why do we have to get 4 hits, 4 walks, or a combination of both to score a run in an inning? Not to mention waiting for the 3 run homer. Personally, I feel that another manager, like say Ozzie Guillen would have the fish about 10 games up in this division with this same roster. When I see that happening, I will have something positive to write. Does anyone see anything positive in this team that I missed? I'll also add, that it really gets annoying to see fans say that everything is OK. Jack should stay and, even though I don't think that players should be traded, the same fans don't think the players should be traded either. I say at least have a legitimate point of view. Look at the standings and look at our record. Something needs to be done. How can anyone say that everything is OK? Did you all buy some special candy from Willy Wonka? Either you feel that it's Jack's fault (which I do) or you feel that it's the player's fault (which I partially blame). There is clearly something wrong; at least ackowledge that!!! :banghead

I see a pattern in our team's history regardless of who owns it or who is the GM. I feel that the Marlins have been fortunate enough to have 2 of the best GMs in baseball since their inauguration in Dave Dombrowski and Admin Beinfest, but there is one problem that seems to not change here. It is the Marlins' traditional delay in getting rid of what should have obviously been booted out previously. Examples are as follows: Bryan Harvey (RP) ***Boy, did Dombrowski blow that one; we could have had Admin "Chipper" Jones if Dave didn't get greedy and want quite a bit more. Rene Lacheman (manager) ***Hey, he knew how to get himself thrown out of the game to make us forget that the fish lost. Richie Lewis (RP) ***never saw a lead that he didn't want to blow. Orestes Destrade (1B) ***Big difference between those Japanese parks and the Bermuda Triangle over here. Junior Felix (RF, or at least that was where he stood) Todd Dunwoody (OF) ***And you say that he's better than Preston Wilson, Cliff Floyd, and Mark Kotsay??? Vic Darensbourg (RP) ***I even joked when he was finally traded that his departure would be worth about 10 more wins because he wasn't around to blow any more leads or make blowout victories into drama-filled intrigue. Gregg Zaun © ***How many times did he play catch with the CF when he was trying to throw out a basestealer? John Boles (manager) ***Did we really have to wait for an uprising? Wasn't the embarrassment of being outmanaged by Bobby Valentine in NY enough? Jeff Torborg (manager) ***And why was he managing again after the fiascos in Chicago and NY? OH yeah, he's friends with the Lorias. Anything longer than his first day or any SP throwing 150 pitches was too long. Did we have to have to wait until Burnett joined the likes of Len Barker, Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Bobby Thigpen, Sid Fernandez and several others as pitchers whose careers were ruined or setback by Torborg? There are many other names that I can come up with that were here too long, but I won't go on forever. So now I come to our current, "seems to be here too long" names; Jack McKeon and Bill Robinson. I have to copy-and-paste a little from what I wrote on John Boles for Jack McKeon, but I'll make some changes as needed. Here goes: Do we have to wait for an uprising? Isn't the embarrassment of being outmanaged by nearly every manager in baseball enough? For Bill Robinson ***Hmmmm, I'm no genius, but the fact that he was fired by the Mets because of offensive underachievement and inconsistency along with baserunning mistakes by the players seems to follow the pattern that we see here. Is it a coincidence? I don't think so. That would be like saying that it has been just coincidence that Jeff Torborg is always at the scene of a pitching injury. I deon't entirely absolve the players, but you can't get rid of all 25. Bringing in others would not make a difference because they would just be trying to be part of the team and that's kind of scary right now with so muck dissatisfaction with the manager and coaching staff. Anyway, I had to get that off of my chest. Admin, please do something!!! What are you waiting for? :banghead

I'll say that I'm not thrilled with this trade unless the Marlins can pry Jay Gibbons from the Orioles. Otherwise, it has the potential to be a total disaster from our end. AS for the trade as it is, the only good thing is that when Burnett and Lowell were placed on the trade market, I always felt that you have to deal them to the AL in order to prevent them from burning the Marlins by being in the same league. So, the good part is that they will be in the AL and hopefully the O's resign AJ and keep Lowell beyond this year.

According to DVH last night, and mentioned in articles today, Conine was batting over 500 against starter Cory Lidle. He didn't start. He was brought in late as a PH against a reliever. Don't know anymore if it's possible to wake up Jack. Let him sleep. At home. 858128[/snapback] I have to say that I questioned Jack McKeon's decision too and I am one of the people that say that the Marlins need a managerial change, but it's hard to make a point like this after they win a game in which they hit very well. If they scored less than 3 runs, like they have 30 times this year, then the opportunity would be out there to critique him. What you're doing is like a GM firing a manager after a 10 game winning streak that got the team out of the basement. It's kind of questionable even though it makes sense in the long-term. It's always better to wait for a down period that you know will follow. I'll add, I'm happy that the Marlins won, but we have seen this all year. Also, it was the Phillies. In the last 3 years, can we really think that we didn't anything special by beating the Phillies? It isn't 2001 and 2002 where beating the Phillies was something to be relieved or happy about. Also, they did it in a hitter's park. To me, being able to display their offense in a hitter's park just supports my opinion about Jack and his "wait for the 3 run homer" mentality. It only works in hitter's parks like the ones in Philadelphia, Chicago, Houston, and Colorado. We play in Dolphin's Stadium where that style of offense doesn't work. That's why we have 30 of our 88 games have resulted in less than 3 runs scored. That's about 35% of our games. The Marlins are 3-27 in those games and 42-16 in all of the others. If we score more than 2 runs in half of those games, at their pace, the Marlins record would be around 53-35; not 45-43. At their current rate, they will score less than 3 runs in 55 games this year and are on a pace to have a 6-49 record in those games and a 76-31 record in all of the others. If we score more than 2 runs in half of these games for the entire year, at their current pace, the Marlins would finish with a record of around 97-65. What a difference that would make. Isn't that what we all expected from this team in the first place? Remember, Carlos Delgado was suppose to be an addition, "the icing on the cake," to an offense that played "small ball." He wasn't added to be a part of an offense that would change to an AL style of team. We don't even have enough sluggers for that style of play. We only have 2 legitimate 30 HR guys; for that style of play, you need a couple of other guys that WILL hit in the high 20s and maybe 1 more than can reach 30. Also, you need to be in a hitter's park. I hope that this is considered by some of you that defend Jack so much. Do you all remember the way that the offense worked in 2003? A runner got on; stole 2B; was moved over to 3rd (with 1 out); then scored in many ways afterwards. Right now, a runner gets on and waits. We score when we get 4 hits, 4 walks, or a combination of both in an inning. Considering how rare that occurs during the course of a season, it goes to explain why 1 game the fish score 9 or more runs, then the next night they struggle to avoid getting shutout. :banghead

Rios isnt going anywhere and you cant trade Willingham, he is hurt lame cheap shot at Logan Kensing 856510[/snapback] Maverick Yeah, I know Rios is hard to pry away from Toronto, but he would be nice to have with Cabrera for many years. As for Willingham, I know that he's injured, but teams have aquired prospects in the past even when they were injured. Not that I'm saying that Willingham is on his level, but remember the Marlins were trying to aquire Chipper Jones when he was still injured, but one of the top prospects in baseball at the time. It was just a thought. As for Kensing, I undertsand from your posts and your website, that you like some of the fish's prospects, but I'll personally say that I really don't think that he has what it takes to be a credible MLB player. He may have been brought up too early, but I don't think that is his only problem. He looks like he'll never be successful. He looks like a (I hope I get the name of the right bust) Kurt Miller type, if you remember him. Any way, Maverick, what would you do with the fish? You should play GM with us. It's better than the reality that the Marlins may not do anything at all. 856535[/snapback] I actually thought you werent allowed to trade injured players... might be my mistake. And maybe Logan Kensing will be a bust, but he is all of 23 years old and is going to now be groomed as a relief man(which he was in college). Id like to give him a few more shots. Anyway, I think I said this before but I move AJ Burnett to either the White Sox(Brandon McCarthy and Sweeney/Anderson), to the Blue Jays(Chacin, League.... I dont think we need Gross but Ill take him), or to the Yankees(with Enc for Sheffield) We then move Mike Lowell to whoever will take him off our hands without us paying much in his salary, thus moving Cabrera to 3rd. Depending on who you get back in the trades, you either put Aguila, Conine, Hermida or the new Marlin out in LF. That's where the moves should end for now.... But say we are still losing ground in the last week of July, I try and move Todd Jones and Brian Moehler as well. 856544[/snapback] You posted good trade possibilities. Hopefully, the Marlins will do something. It's obvious that the Nats aren't waiting around. They actually want to win this thing. The scary part is that Braves haven't done their annual big move yet. The Phillies look like they will be unloading players and even the Mets will make a move, even if it's their annual moronic move of the year trade. Our Front Office seems too content with this team right now. Agh, we're not aggressive on the field or off the field. Oh, the injured player and trades rule I think is as follows: You definitely can trade an injured player, but only if the receiving team is aware of all known aspects of the injury. A trade can be voided and the selling team is reponsible if it is discovered that any information is hidden from the receiving team. The receiving team has the final say as to the result of such an issue; they can force the void, accept an adjusted trade, or receive compensation in most cases. The selling team is always disciplined by the MLB commisioner's office. A selling team is not responsible if a new aspect of the injury is discovered that they were "not aware of." That's why these trades rarely happen unless a team is really confident about the injured player that they are trying to aquire. That's also why a player that was on the trading block before an injury is released afterwards because the team just wanted them gone and felt that the injury makes it more difficult. As for Willingham, I believe that he is still tradable even with the injury, especially to a team trying to rebuild. Many rebuilding teams feel that they can get a nice bargain on a young talent because of injury. I believe that teams like either Tampa Bay (as a DH) or Pittsburgh would definitely overlook his current injury and be interested in Willingham. Just a thought.

You know, for a name like PoisitveHype, you sure are the pessimist. 856521[/snapback] OK, you're cracking on me because I'm not happy with the fish and I have a positive name, but how can you crack on me with what you have below your post. "Put Alex Gonzalez in the 3 hole." I think that I understand you; you're overly optimistic to think that he can actually hit there. He is and will always be a bottom of the lineup hitter. Maybe I can be positive about the Marlins season by smoking some of the same stuff that you do. If it makes one think that Alex should be hitting 3rd, then it surely should make me want to throw another parade downtown for the Marlins performance so far in this season. :blink: Oops. I need some glasses to hide my eyes. :cool

Rios isnt going anywhere and you cant trade Willingham, he is hurt lame cheap shot at Logan Kensing 856510[/snapback] Maverick Yeah, I know Rios is hard to pry away from Toronto, but he would be nice to have with Cabrera for many years. As for Willingham, I know that he's injured, but teams have aquired prospects in the past even when they were injured. Not that I'm saying that Willingham is on his level, but remember the Marlins were trying to aquire Chipper Jones when he was still injured, but one of the top prospects in baseball at the time. It was just a thought. As for Kensing, I undertsand from your posts and your website, that you like some of the fish's prospects, but I'll personally say that I really don't think that he has what it takes to be a credible MLB player. He may have been brought up too early, but I don't think that is his only problem. He looks like he'll never be successful. He looks like a (I hope I get the name of the right bust) Kurt Miller type, if you remember him. Any way, Maverick, what would you do with the fish? You should play GM with us. It's better than the reality that the Marlins may not do anything at all.

Rios isnt going anywhere and you cant trade Willingham, he is hurt lame cheap shot at Logan Kensing 856510[/snapback] Maverick Yeah, I know Rios is hard to pry away from Toronto, but he would be nice to have with Cabrera for many years. As for Willingham, I know that he's injured, but teams have aquired prospects in the past even when they were injured. Not that I'm saying that Willingham is on his level, but remember the Marlins were trying to aquire Chipper Jones when he was still injured, but one of the top prospects in baseball at the time. It was just a thought. As for Kensing, I undertsand from your posts and your website, that you like some of the fish's prospects, but I'll personally say that I really don't think that he has what it takes to be a credible MLB player. He may have been brought up too early, but I don't think that is his only problem. He looks like he'll never be successful. He looks like a (I hope I get the name of the right bust) Kurt Miller type, if you remember him. Any way, Maverick, what would you do with the fish? You should play GM with us. It's better than the reality that the Marlins may not do anything at all.

OK, I have to say that I was stunned to see Jack and Bill Robinson return to the dugout together after the All-Star Break. I also have to say that they have to be kidding in thinking that Al Leiter is the only thing that needed to be worked on during the break. Well, I have a couple of theories. 1) Jack and Bill are still here because Admin Beinfest isn't sure of who's fault it is. Hmmm, they are 3 and 27 in games where they score less than 3 runs. They have scored less than 3 runs in 30 games!!! Hmmm, they are among the leaders in batting average, but terrible at getting men home. Hmmmm, alot of baserunners, but no agression followed by an occasional baserunning mistake. I say follow the philosophy of former "Police Academy" standout "Tackleberry" and fire first, then ask questions. If you get rid of all of them, then you find out later after the team plays differently. 2) Marlins are about to do something extremely big. I hope that they look at last year and remember that they waited too long to aquire LoDuca and it made things impossible to overcome. 3) Has Admin Bienfest given up on this season and that's why there is no trade or no managerial change. Is Jack just the Interim Manager for himself now? Are the fish waiting to build for next year? Admin, please do something now!!! :banghead Hmmmm, banging my head on the wall was too extreme. What should I really do? OK, now I have thought about it and this makes more sense. :banghead

First, I notice that many people are talking like the Marlins can make 2 or 3 MAJOR trades. However, in professional sports, that is very unlikely, especially in this age when economices are a major factor in most transactions. If you look at professional sports history, unless you're holding a fire-sale, most teams make 1 major trade and if a 2nd is made, they are considered finished with their moves and are praised for being "very active." The only time that I saw anything close to a non-fire-sale trading spree in professional sports was in basketball when Pat Riley 1st came to the Heat and traded 2/3rds of the roster at the trading deadline. On that trading spree, there were about 4 trades, but only the one that brought in Tim Hardaway was considered a MAJOR trade. Other than that, you really don't see that level of activity. OK, with that said; the fact is that the Marlins have the pieces in place for 1 major trade and another decent 1 or 2, so you have to consider what do you want to do overall before you start trading wildly and realize at the end that you don't have any other bargaining chips to finish your goals. With that in mind, I would have to say that I would focus on getting another quality SP (2 since you're trading AJ), 2 solid dependable relievers, and an OF that has a nice bat. Also, we need to change the entire coaching staff along with Jack. For the SP and OF, the Marlins may have the opportunity for their 1 major trade. They have Minnesota and Toronto on the phone. I would go in 1 of 2 directions. If I go with Toronto, obviously Lowell isn't needed there because they have alot of 3Bs there, so this would be a deal involving AJ and Encarnacion. I would definitely look at Chacin and a player that can play OF solidly. Now, many people keep saying go for Vernon Wells, but realistically, that isn't going to happen even if you added Lowell because remember, Lowell has no value to the Jays. So a guy that the fish can consider bringing in return is Alex Rios or Reed Johnson, who simply replace Encarnacion's bat and Rios is a young potential star if you can get Toronto to budge. Now, with Minnesota looking at Lowell, I would stay firm on having Rios. If they don't budge, I go to Minnesota looking to make a major deal beyond just trading Lowell. If the Toronto deal works with Rios, I just deal Lowell along with some "prospects" for a SP like Joe Mays or Kyle Lohse along with a RP like righties Jesse Crain or Matt Guerrier who are solid and young and hopefully OF Lew Ford. If the Toronto trade doesn't work, I would then add AJ Burnett, who may seriously interest Minnesota and ask for Jasque Jones, Kyle Lohse, and either of the above-mentioned relievers. I would then send Juan Encarnacion to the team that offers the best SP in return. I would stay away from the Orioles deal entirely unless they offer something that can't be refused. What can make any of this happen is people's perception of AJ's value. My next deal would involve another RP, maybe a package that involves Josh Willingham and any other "prospects," other than Hermida and Olsen, (definitely Logan "batting practice" Kensing) to see who is willing to give up a strong reliever for prospects. Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, and Seattle are the most likely of those types of teams. Baez would be my priority, but I will not cross over the line of being suckered like the Mets did with Kazmir. If not Tampa, I would see Pittsburgh about Mesa and see if a package of prospects could also land us Redman too as insurance for Beckett. If not them either, I would see Seattle, but it may be a little more difficult to get them to give up Guardado. If none work out, I would see Kansas City about MacDougal and his current status. Also, I'll say this; I would have tried Al Leiter for a week in the bullpen before letting him go to see if I could get something out of him for that money. He would see time only against lefties. If he works out, great; if not bye-bye. Well, he's gone any way, so I would grab up anyone that is breathing and can stand in the bullpen---preferably a lefty. Is Jesse Orozco still interested in getting lefties out? Hell, I think that he retired too early, he was only 75. I'm sure that he could get lefties out all the way until he is on his death bed. After my transactions, I would say bye to Jack and his entire coaching staff and would welcome Davey Lopes and allow him to choose his own staff with me only suggesting to bring in Whitey Herzog as a bench coach and to consider Mike Mordecai somewhere down the line. Why did Jack and his staff make it pass the All-Star Break? I would also hand over Davey Lopes the button to destroy the leg restraints that Jack installed on our baserunners. Now, here is how the team would probably look under Lopes: Lineup if the Toronto gives Rios after both trades: Pierre Castillo Delgado Cabrera Rios/Conine LoDuca Ford/Conine Gonzalez Lineup if Toronto doesn't give up Rios: Pierre Castillo Delgado Cabrera Jones LoDuca Conine Gonzalez SPs: Beckett Willis Mays/Lohse Moehler Olsen RPs: Baez/Mesa/Guardado/MacDougal Jones Mota (if I don't include him in a package) I. Valdez (ditto) Redman (if aquired, really just here as insurance) Crain/Guerrier Mecir ????? (whatever warm body that I can get for Leiter) :hat

Maybe he is sharing that 2003 feeling that Admin Beinfest had; A managerial change is needed for this team to play up to their capabilities. Why wasn't something done during the All-Star Break?

There hasnt been many rumors lately at all for the fish. There is a few basic ones that still hold together out there. The traditional ones we have all been hearing AJ + Enc/Lowell to O's Bigbie, Cabrera, Julio(sucking it since may) to Fish AJ + Enc/lowell to Yanks Sheff +brown +cash AJ + Enc to Bosox Arroyo +Hanely+ relief pitcher Stanton FA to Fish Lowell/Enc to Nats (not sure what for) Lowell to White Sox Enc to Cubs Baez to Fish Huff to Fish That should be about it. We mostly need a bat and good relief pitcher. The following is what is major and out there Dunn (Cin) Griffey (Cin) Pena (Cin) Wilson (Col) Those are the four major names heard alot for rumors. Pitchers commonly heard. AJ Schimdt Redman Lilly Baez Guardo Day Oliver Perez (pit) Wagner (doubt he will be moved) 853661[/snapback] First, I'll follow in line in saying yes that the Marlins have had numerous chances to make a managerial/coaching move, but haven't. Right now is probably about as likely a time as any with 1) the break before the second half; 2) they have now played 29 games in which they have scored less than 3 runs; 3) they have shown no life after 86 games; 4) they just got swept at home to end the first half. As for the quoted post above: Nice names above, but I haven't heard about Oliver Perez being shopped around. Hell, I'll say this now; If Oliver Perez is available, the Marlins should jump on him in a heartbeat. He can be as good as any pitcher in the game and would continue his improvement working with Mark Wiley and Paul LoDuca. Also, if Wily Mo Pena is available, why haven't the Marlins jumped on him? He would be a good pickup to have in LF to move Cabrera to 3B. However, it seems that a deal for the likes of a young player like him or Oliver Perez would require a third team with some prospects that is interested in our veterans like Burnett, Encarnacion, and/or Lowell.

They just gotta watch the 03 WS dvd, that's what I do when I need inspiration. 850879[/snapback] man such a magical season. brings a tear to my eye everytime i see JP jump into the air after that last out. its funny...i personally think the energy and youthfulness left this club with Ozzie Guillen. as funny as it might sound i think that man had more influence then most think. 850967[/snapback] 1) Thank you for saying that about Ozzie Guillen. Anyone that has seen my posts about firing Jack have seen that I felt that the only difference between them now and 2003, in particular their offensive strategy, has been Guillen. In 2003, Jack came in ands pretty much didn't interfere with what Guillen did with the team's aggressiveness. Since the Spring of 2004 Jack installed those brakes on the baserunners and the offense has been inconsistent ever since. This year, it has been a joke as among the many offensive problems are the mistakes on the basepaths. Now, let's look at careers: Jack usually comes in and his first year is his best year; Bill Robinson was fired by the Mets for the same questions about his work as the batting coach and baserunning mistakes when he was at 1B too; Ozzie Guillen---as a coach (Braves & Marlins) he has been involved with an aggressive style and now as a manager, his White Sox are aggressive. Also, of note, he influenced the FO in Chicago to go get a base stealer to lead off (Posednik) and to get a player that does more than hit HRs (Jermaine Dye), and get a solid veteran catcher to help the pitchers (Pierzynski). Hmmm...look at those Sox go. Look how dull our offense is as it waits around for a 3-run homer. 2) Anyone that actually goes to the games can clearly see that this team is mentally done. I hate to say this, but when I saw the fish lose the final game of that series against the Cubs, I saw a team that seems to be on the verge of an internal explosion. Everytime Leiter struggled with the strike zone, the defense just shrugged as if they couldn't get into a rythm and then of course Delgado made an error which lead to Al's departure. Also, there were many heads behind Leiter shaking from side to side as they looked down and seemed to be waiting for a pitching change. I saw the same thing when Nate Bump was in. This team doesn't need any major trades except for some bullpen tweaking in the form of a closer that is a 100% guarantee because that is the only TRUE weak spot when you look at the talent on this team. This team needs a managerial change. Let me see a new guy in there before players are traded. This team isn't going anywhere, no matter who wears the uniforms and is in the lineup. There is just so much mentally going wrong and it seems to point to the entire coaching staff except for Wiley. 3) What kind of suggestion is that watch the 2003 championship DVD? Don't you think that the players have copies at home and watch it occasionally or at least their kids get them to take a glance any time that they think of watching it? Don't you think that they remember that season everytime they look at their rings or the banner in the RF gap? 4) Simply put; the fish looked done in this last series. We are at the All-Star Break; a managerial change should be done now. Let's see how the team plays under someone else for the next couple of weeks, then make the necessary changes to improve this team for either this year or next year. Those of you Jack supporters don't realize something, Jack is up there in age; he isn't going to be managing much longer no matter how good or bad a job he does. The Marlins need to start looking for a successor anyway. To think that none of this would be an issue if they had just given the job to Ozzie Guillen in the first place. They had a losing record when they made the change in 2003; at the time, what did they have to lose by giving a rookie a chance. Turns out that the rookie was probably the reason that they turned it around and won it all. 5) I follow the motion towards the Cub fans at the games...F@#K YOU ALL!!! :banghead

A-Rod is signed thru 2010, making 20-24 million each year. Lowell is making $8 million per year thru 2007. A-Rod has about $114 left on his deal, Lowell has $16 million, not including what both of them are owed this year, and the ridiculous incentives A-Rod has built in ($1.5 million every time he wins the MVP award, for example). but even more important is this - nothing this FO has ever done has suggested that they would take on this kind of deal. this contract would tie all the team's money up in one player who has a no-trade clause. how many players have we let walk b/c we didn't want to overpay even a little? now suddenly we'll take on the most expensive deal in sports history? to make this work, they'd have to send us $50 million dollars, at least. so A-Rod + $50 million for Lowell, AJ, and Pierre, when AJ and Pierre are both free agents next year? this is stupid Yankee fan blather, but b/c it's on a website, people think it's official. Somewhere, someone is pointing to THIS thread and saying "hey, people are talking about an A-Rod\Marlins deal!" 844089[/snapback] I agree. You know that is what I originally felt. You know what's funny about the last thing that you said. I wouldn't be surprised that it goes beyond the internet rumor mills and actually makes one of the NY papers and eventually ESPN. Very soon, we may see Peter Gammons, Harold Reynolds, John Kruk, and Jeff Brantley talking about it on Baseball Tonight.