Posted June 29, 200519 yr Well, we dropped another one last night and it would have been our 3rd loss in a row if AJ didn't pitch so well on Sunday. I know that the front office may feel that they owe our coaching staff something because most of them were here in 2003, but at this point, it is safe to say that a change needs to be made. Waiting around for a 3-run homer isn't going to get the job done with this type of team nor in this type of stadium. The reason the fish won in 2003 was because of aggressiveness, lack of baserunning mistakes, and a "no quit" attitude. Has it all gone to Chicago with Ozzie Guillen? It seems so. I've seen a team perform like this before over a decade ago. It was the Mets of the early 90s under Bud Harrelson. It was made clear by the players that they wanted him out and they performed horribly until the Mets organization had no choice, but to let him go. I think that this is the case here right now. Too many players are unhappy with Jack and Bill Robinson and you can't trade an entire team. There are also too many questionable decisions both with hitting and pitching. Not to mention the baserunning mistakes that can be directly attributed to the 1B and 3B coaches (Robinson being one). Therefore, you have to change the entire coaching staff except for Wiley (for now). Deserving important notice, let's look at Jack and Bill's career. First, doesn't anyone notice that Bill Robinson was fired by the Mets organization because they had the same offensive problems and baserunning mistakes that the Marlins have now? Hmmm...Is it a coincidence that Bill was their hitting and 1B coach too? How about Jack? It was stated, after the Marlins re-signed him after the 2003 season, that usually Jack's first season with a team is his best and everything falls apart afterwards as he implements his style of baseball. It was even the subject of a segment on ESPN's "Baseball Tonight" back in late 2003. Let me see; Is that what is happening now? Back in 2003, Jack didn't change much except letting Ozzie Guillen do what he does and the team played aggressively and smart. Also, who wouldn't look like a genius if they get 2 rookies like Dontrelle Willis and Miggy Cabrera and just let them play. It also helped to have a leader like IRod, which we don't have now. Since then, starting with Spring Training 2004, Jack installed some breaks on our baserunners and has us waiting around for the 3-run homer. We saw in 2004 that after a pitcher got passed Cabrera and Lowell, it was easy coasting. So, when the wait for the 3-run homer method fails, Jack pulls off the Yankees solution to everything and convinces the front office that the team needsto spend money on another big bat. Then, we bring in Delgado. Guess what, Delgado is having a great year, but once again, once a pitcher gets passed the 3 and 4 hitter, he can coast for a couple of innings. The only change that needs to be done is the coaching staff. This is not an American League team playing in a hitter's park that can afford to wait for a 3-run homer. What sucks is that there are all of these rumors of the Marlins trying to shuffle the deck by trading players. This isn't necessary. I'd like to see another aggressive, younger manager get these players first before we start shipping anyone out. I hate the fact that nothing has happened after last nights performance. This sucks. This is crap. Admin do something!!!
June 29, 200519 yr It also helped to have a leader like IRod, which we don't have now. 830685[/snapback] Last time i checked Duke, Lowell and Delgado were great leaders for this team.
June 29, 200519 yr So you feel that the team is intentionally playing poorly until Jack and/or Bill Robinson is canned. :plain And I get so tired of hearing how Pudge was the leader of the '03 team. Ask anyone who was around the team in 2003. It just ain't so.
June 29, 200519 yr Good Post, P-Hype. Some similar postings on other current threads. Seems fans are demonstrating more focus than that of the FO. But, FO and Loria have to be aware of what has become evident to us. Jack (and his cronies, except Perry Hill) have to go. We need Ozzie Guillen but can't have him. We didn't plan ahead. Mordy is not ready yet for Manager but would add "Ozzie Energy" as 3B Coach. But, Mordy would be ham-strung if he had to work under Jack. Jack is not a "team player." Jack is all about Jack.
June 29, 200519 yr Author So you feel that the team is intentionally playing poorly until Jack and/or Bill Robinson is canned. :plain And I get so tired of hearing how Pudge was the leader of the '03 team. Ask anyone who was around the team in 2003. It just ain't so. 830690[/snapback] I know that my statement raises questions, but it wouldn't be the only time that it has happened in professional team sports. Yes, I definitely think that it is possible that the team is tanking it. We all may be thinking that they are playing with no heart, but none of us are in that dugout or in that locker room or hangout with the players before or after the games. This does go on in sports as much as many fans may not want to believe it. The Mets under Bud Harrelson were the most obvious baseball case. That's why I cited it. There was belief that Some of the L.A. Lakers teams after Pat Riley left did the same thing as well as MJ before Phil Jackson arrived in Chicago and recently it was reversed on MJ in Washington with the Wizards. There have been cases in the NFL as well, in particular with star players. Should I give other cases? I'm like any other fan and don't condone it, but to think that it doesn't exist is living in a fantasy. The athletes are human too and come up with some stupid notions as well to screw their bosses when they feel the need to. I'm not saying that the fish are doing this, but it needs to be considered. If it's not this, then Jack really has them mentally screwed up to where they can't perform consistently.
June 29, 200519 yr It also helped to have a leader like IRod, which we don't have now. 830685[/snapback] Last time i checked Duke, Lowell and Delgado were great leaders for this team. 830689[/snapback] I have the upmost respect and admiration for delgado and lowell. I am in a minority when i say we should leave lowell alone and let him play his way out of his funk. But, I think it is very apparent that while they both may be leaders, their effectivness in the club-house has been severely lacking. I am not saying that its their fault in any way but I know where Lowell is at. He is afraid to step up b/c he doesn't want the team to have a "What have you done lately" attitude. Delgado probably feels that he hasnt got the time in the organization to be anymore effective. We all saw that what the result of his "closed door players only" meeting was and i think that took the leadership wind out of his sails. I think the team needs to bring in a "spark-plug" type person to shake things up a bit. Whether it be a mike redmond type player who will take naked batting practice :ymca :blink: or an Ozzie Guillen type coach (note I didnt say head coach) that will lead by example and just generally have a good time . Because that is the biggest difference I see on the field. A general lack of having a good time.
June 29, 200519 yr bring in tony Pena. good baseball guy who was stuck in payroll oblivion in Kansas City. Also brings a latin flavor to the clubhouse which will fill the void Ozzie Guillen left when he accepted the white sox gig.
June 29, 200519 yr Jack is not a "team player." Jack is all about Jack. 830693[/snapback] Yeah...that's the ticket. :whistle
June 29, 200519 yr You're making this too complicated. While Jack may not be the world's best strategist, there are 2 absolutely clear reasons for our offensive woes. Juan Pierre's OBP is 73 points lower than last year. And Lowell's slugging percentage is 162 points below last year. I don't think it's possible to drop that far, in one season, without there being an undisclosed physical ailment that's causing it, especially in regard to Lowell's lack of power, which continues even as he has hit for better average lately. I defy anyone to find a drop similar to Lowell's that wasn't later found to be an undisclosed injury, or some other problem from which the player never recovered. Pierre's drop is a little more likely to be just a slump, but his OBP in the leadoff spot is killing us just as surely as Lowell's power outage. Until these 2 problems are fixed, we have no chance of the playoffs, regardless of how well our pitching performs. We don't score enough to put together a win streak to catch up. Something is wrong with both Lowell and Pierre that either they're hiding from the FO, or the FO is hiding from us and from teams they may want to trade with.
June 29, 200519 yr Author Alot of negativity for a guy named "PositiveHype", don't ya think? 830705[/snapback] So, what's your point related to this thread? I'm not trying to be negative, but other than Willis, Cabrera, Delgado, Castillo, Gonzalez, Easley as a bench player, and Todd Jones, what is there on the Marlins to be positive about? Last I checked, we are performing well below ability and have lost 20 of our last 32 games, not to mention that we have scored less than 3 runs in 27 games this season and have a 3 and 24 record in those games. Here's a positive, the Marlins are 35 and 12 when they score 3 or more runs. If we score 3 or more runs in half of the games that we didn't, out the Marlins pace they would have a record of around 46 and 28, not the 38 and 36 clip that we are at right now. If they were doing that, we all would be a happy baseball community and be on here talking about how to strengthen our bullpen and when is something going to be done about the stadium issue. Instead, the Marlins are a joke and we are talking about players rumored to be traded and Jack and Bill being fired and many are wondering why is it taking so long. Can anyone think of any positive thing to say about the Marlins situation?
June 29, 200519 yr sometimes changing coaching personnel provides a team with a spark that is needed to wake up underachieving players. The Marlins of 2003 are an example as were the Astros of last year (although the signing beltran might have helped a bit
June 29, 200519 yr Your perception of waiting for 3-run homers is one thing but I seriously doubt McKeon has changed his coaching style from 2003 till now. Teams change, players age and perform differently. It may appear that breaks were put on runners but he has stated that certain players still have the green light to run. They just are not as successful as in 2003. IMO, we had several key players have career-type years. Throughout the lineup, someone always stepped up (even D. Lee on occasions). You had Mordy and Castro who came through in the clutch off the bench. So blame the managers, coaches, FO for players not performing. Since we have only 2 hitters (Cabrera and Delgado), it would appear that the only way to score runs is a home run.
June 29, 200519 yr So you feel that the team is intentionally playing poorly until Jack and/or Bill Robinson is canned. :plain And I get so tired of hearing how Pudge was the leader of the '03 team. Ask anyone who was around the team in 2003. It just ain't so. 830690[/snapback] Yeah lets hope thats the case. :plain
June 29, 200519 yr Author Your perception of waiting for 3-run homers is one thing but I seriously doubt McKeon has changed his coaching style from 2003 till now. Teams change, players age and perform differently. It may appear that breaks were put on runners but he has stated that certain players still have the green light to run. They just are not as successful as in 2003. IMO, we had several key players have career-type years. Throughout the lineup, someone always stepped up (even D. Lee on occasions). You had Mordy and Castro who came through in the clutch off the bench. So blame the managers, coaches, FO for players not performing. Since we have only 2 hitters (Cabrera and Delgado), it would appear that the only way to score runs is a home run. 830724[/snapback] I agree with some of what you said, but as for 2003, Jack never implemented his style of baseball. He just made some minor adjustments and went with the status quo, which alot of it was run by Ozzie Guillen. It was in the spring of 2004 that Jack began to be the manager that he is when he started to completely implement his own style of baseball. It was from that point on that we saw pitchers breeze through our lineup after they got pass the number 4 hitter. It usually was followed by 2 innings of nothing by the offense or one of the 5th through 8 hitters killing a rally. Jack's excuse was that we needed another slugger, in particular, a lefthanded one, and the front office got him one. Now, we are still looking at the same thing once pitchers get passed our number 4 hitter. What's the problem now? I'm not dismissing Lowell's failure, but I'd like to see Lowell bat when he doesn't have to swing for a homerun nearly everytime. I'm guessing that he'll return to being the same hitter that he has been when the pressure wasn't on for him to take the ball deep nearly every plater appearance. As for Pierre, I think that preventing him from being what he is, is affecting him too. I feel that if he wants to run at will, even recklessly, let him so he can get into a nice flow. Also, if he wants to play everyday, let him. That whole notion of preventing him from tiring out is crap in his case. Last year, he had a better average in the second half than in the first. He seems to be a player that needs to stay in a comfort zone, which he was taken out of when Jack installed some brakes on him and this year deciding to give him some rest days. Again, let me see another manager and coaching staff handle this team before players are traded. Let me see Lowell and Pierre in situations like they have had in the past before we feel that something is wrong with them. Admin, please do something NOW!!!
June 29, 200519 yr I would dare to say that no manager has a set style. Depending on situation, style will differ. Yes, Larussa likes to squeeze in certain situations but not always. It cost him sometimes. Others have certain tendencies but to say any manager has a certain style (other than Weaver) may be somewhat over-simplifying the issue and especially with the Marlins. Most managers style is to do what it takes to win and in our case, this has not happened this year.
June 29, 200519 yr Author I would dare to say that no manager has a set style. Depending on situation, style will differ. Yes, Larussa likes to squeeze in certain situations but not always. It cost him sometimes. Others have certain tendencies but to say any manager has a certain style (other than Weaver) may be somewhat over-simplifying the issue and especially with the Marlins. Most managers style is to do what it takes to win and in our case, this has not happened this year. 830755[/snapback] For the most part, many managers are like you say and are pretty much clones of one another that go "by the book." However, there are many managers that have a distinct method that they use to win. Some like "small ball," others like the Earl Weaver 3-run homer style, and then you have the cousin of "small ball" which is the Whitey Herzog "run the rabbits" style. Not to mention many others like the pitching related style of Sparky Anderson's "Captain Hook" style. McKeon seems to love the Earl Weaver way, which there is no problem with it, but we have a park that doesn't favor that offensive method. This stadium favors either the pure "small ball" style or Whitey Herzog's old style. Why is Jack using the Earl Weaver method? Part of being a good manager, is being able to identify what works with the players that you have and the park that you're in. Some managers are not necessarily good or bad, but are placed in situations that don't favor them. I think that Jack is one of these managers. He isn't good because he hasn't adjusted to this team or the stadium; if anything, he has adjusted away from everything. He is just an average manager that doesn't belong in a "small ball" park or in the National League. He can thank Ozzie Guillen for running the show in 2003. Ozzie has that distinct "aggressive" style that involves "small ball." You see, on Day 1, he convinced the White Sox front office that they couldn't win with Magglio Ordonez or so many power hitters and that they needed a speedster at the top of the lineup. They traded Carlos Lee and got Scott Posednik in a trade that helped both teams. He also convinced them to gamble on Jermaine Dye (who he knows from his days in Atlanta) who does more than hit HRs. I can go on forever on issues with managers and styles because I coach and am at the high school level, but I won't go on forever. In short, the teams problems start with the manager and his coaching staff. If the problems continue afterwards, then other changes need to be made. The only sure thing is that Admin Beinfest does a good job with his decision making.
June 29, 200519 yr I really like Jack, but it does seem like he isn't getting full potential from this team. I know we have a really great team and there is no excuse for the lack of hitting and lack of wins. I honestly feel that we should be dominating this division right now.
June 29, 200519 yr Bottom line: the team is underperforming for the second straight year. Manager's responsibility is the team's performance. Right now, the ship be sinkin.
June 29, 200519 yr Bottom line: the team is underperforming for the second straight year. Manager's responsibility is the team's performance. Right now, the ship be sinkin. 830823[/snapback] The wild thing is that they're still only a couple games back in the wild card. If the Braves or someone other than the league leaders were way over .500 too, we'd all be hanging ourselves.
June 29, 200519 yr Whether you like or dislike McKeon's managing style, or think he's in some way at fault for not maximizing the potential of the team, I say that replacing him now is NOT the answer for this year. Maybe next year, but not this year. Historically, changing managers does not lead to a World Series. I recall in 2003 when McKeon was broght in, the stats people said you had to go back 40 or 50 years to find another time when a mid-season manager change lead to a World Series. If you can find another time this worked other than the 2003 Marlins please share it with us.
June 29, 200519 yr Whether you like or dislike McKeon's managing style, or think he's in some way at fault for not maximizing the potential of the team, I say that replacing him now is NOT the answer for this year. Maybe next year, but not this year. Historically, changing managers does not lead to a World Series. I recall in 2003 when McKeon was broght in, the stats people said you had to go back 40 or 50 years to find another time when a mid-season manager change lead to a World Series. If you can find another time this worked other than the 2003 Marlins please share it with us. 830904[/snapback] The Astros changed managers midseason last year and got within one game of the World Series. Still, I'm not sure that firing McKeon would suddenly lead to Pierre and Lowell playing better (or at least more production out of the leadoff and 5 spots in the lineup), which is what is needed most.
June 29, 200519 yr I defy anyone to find a? drop similar to Lowell's that wasn't later found to be an undisclosed injury, or some other problem from which the player never recovered. 830715[/snapback] Maybe this will be proven to be more injury related than anything, but Aubrey Huff is having just about as dismal a season as Lowell is this year, and he's a proven performer over the last few years with similar numbers to Lowell.
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