AGonzalez11

i'm the last person to EVER criticize a manager - i stuck up for girardi here last season countless times when posters ripped him for his "poor in-game management". but the way gonzalez has handled this ballclub is just absolutley disgraceful. the bullpen has some extremely good arms, some of who have been lights out. but he continues to misuse each and every one of them. tonight is yet another example of it. rain delay - obvious choice to bring in is kevin gregg as he can give you a 2-3 innings no problem. so who does he bring in? of course, matt lindstrom. why the hell does he continue to use lindstrom in the fifth inning and/or blowouts? he has been LIGHTS OUT but still uses him in mop-up situations on a consistent basis. with owens on the DL - this guy should be closing, not coming in the 5th inning. as if that wasn't enough - he brings in julio of all people with the bases loaded. he has been terribl and two scoreless innings doesn't erase two weeks of horrendous pitching. werent they trying to let him regain his confidence? bringing him in a bases loaded situation in the bottom of the 9th is just setting him up for failure. nice job fredi - really. giving up a grand slam to lose yet ANOTHER game is really going to do wonders for Mr. Julio. i dont think anyone could have managed this game as poorly as gonzalez did if they tried. he's been doing this stuff all year - too. his bullpen management is awful. he brings in lindstrom in 5th/6th innings and uses guys like gardner (who can't crack 87 mph) or julio in crucial situations. his lineups havent been much better, either. can someone tell me why cody ross wasnt in the lineup on a consistent basis(when healthy, of course) over joe .200 hitter borchard? ross is streaky, but when hot is a legitamate threat. borchard is consistent, but consistently awful. can someone explain to me why he continues to put a .220 hitter who's striking out at an alarming rate in the 2-hole? like i said - i'm usually the last person to rip a manager for "in-game management" - but i've about had it with gonzalez and we're only a month and a half into the season. just speaks volumes of how bad of a job he has been doing thus far. apperantly, and unfortunatley, not much rubbed off in atlanta. tankersley did a terrible job in the 9th - but if he had used the bullpen correctly, it never should have come to using tankersley in the 9th. lindstrom is the one who should be closing ballgames and it's pretty obvious - except to fredi of course :thumbdown

ramirez amezaga cabrera jacobs willingham uggla ross olivo I know you're entitled to your opinion, but that lineup is awful. why is it awful? because you say so? it's essentially what we have now, but with uggla and amezaga switched. uggla is doing absolutley nothing in the 2-hole - amezaga at least can sacrifice himself if needed to produce a run once hanley gets on. Amezaga's garbage this season. Worse than Uggla, and just because you can't hit for power doesn't instantly mean that you're suited for the 2 hole. Amezaga cannot work a count either, and judging by their stats thus far in the season, Uggla possess greater OBP skills since his average is 20 points lower than Amezaga yet his OBP is higher (and, over .300). Saying that "small ball" belongs in the 2 hole is akin to saying Pierre belongs in the leadoff spot. Sometimes, it takes a little more than a superficial look. The lineup we have now is the best we can throw out there...until Hermida gets healthy and lives up to his expectations. the move wouldn't be made to move amezaga up, but uggla down. amezaga moves up by default as there is no one else on this roster (that is healthy) that can hit in that slot. i don't think uggla should be hitting second. i've been saying that for over a year now. he isn't a #2 hitter. he's a run producer. once hermida gets healthy, he is who i would put in the #2 hole - as i said in another thread. until then, put alfredo there, play smallball with him if hanley is on and try to produce some runs instead of living off the three run home run like we have been so far this year. with hermida healthy, this would be my lineup: ramirez hermida cabrera jacobs willingham uggla ross olivo

ramirez amezaga cabrera jacobs willingham uggla ross olivo I know you're entitled to your opinion, but that lineup is awful. why is it awful? because you say so? it's essentially what we have now, but with uggla and amezaga switched. uggla is doing absolutley nothing in the 2-hole - amezaga at least can sacrifice himself if needed to produce a run once hanley gets on.

uggla's problem is simple: he's trying to pull everything. how often did we see him go the other way last year as compared to this year? alot to very little, if ever. he's gotten caught up in the homer craze. he's still running into one every so often, but is producing very little aside from the occasional bomb. he's on pace for around 35 home runs - but also has a .230 average along with it. i'd much, MUCH prefer 25 home runs like last year if it meant hitting .300 (like we was most of last year before he went into a tailspin in the last two weeks) hopefully he gets that fixed up. gonzalez needs to move him out of the two hole. a guy hitting home runs and nothing else should get no where near the 2 spot. drop him down, put alfredo there (who can sacrifice/play smallball if needed) and see if that cures uggla's woes. ramirez amezaga cabrera jacobs willingham uggla ross olivo

in a perfect situation; this would be my lineup: 1. CF - Baldelli 2. RF - Hermida 3. SS - Ramirez 4. 3B - Cabrera 5. 1B - Jacobs 6. LF - Willingham 7. 2B - Uggla 8. C - Olivo

Borchard is absolutley terrible. HE HAD A HORRIBLE NIGHT HAPPY? JESUS CHRIST, DUDE no one here believes he is a future all star... no one ever said that.... he's fine as a part time or platoon player f***. he's not fine as a platoon player. best case for borchard is he provides some power in pinch hitting situations. if he's starting on a semi-regular basis, you're in deep trouble. he stinks.

i dont think there's a team i despise more than the carolina hurricanes....

I think people get out of their seats as many times at a basketball game as they do at a hockey game. Maybe they don't go nuts over a layup, but a big slam, an alley-oop, a big run by their team...people stand and cheer. People erupt at every goal in a hockey game mostly for the reason that there are so few of them. The goals in themselves are often not terribly exciting. I mean, half the time, you can't even tell who hit it in. If the score were in the 100's, it would be a different story. Do you just like low-scoring sports? like i said earlier, what they stand up for is a show. a slam is still 2 points. alley-oop is still two points. they are cheering for a show. if i wanted that, i would go watch a movie. i like sports that are exciting...where tension builds. basketball just doesn't have that for me. football isn't always low scoring but there is plenty of excitement and tension involved. same goes for baseball at times. i watch sports as a die-hard FAN...i know others watch sports as entertainment. there's a HUGE difference. if you just want to be entertained and really don't care about the outcome, hockey is the last sport you'd want to watch (aside from the hits and fights, really) and i could understand why you'd want to see a basketball game. there's more going on, more points being scored. aside from that, well, i don't see what anyone likes about the game, but hey, that's just me.

Ryder ties it up for the Habs... :thumbdown

Well, you did say the sport itself was terrible, which is different than saying watching the sport is a terrible experience. You make good points. I enjoy the momentum swings of a basketball game. And I kind of disagree that there's not a lot of importance every time you bring the ball down the court. Every point counts in the end. Maybe not as much in a regular season NBA game, but come playoff time, a missed layup in the first quarter can haunt you in the final seconds of a game. let me ask you this: what is your (crowd) reaction when/if that layup is made? they applaud. not exactly exciting. what is the crowd reaction if the home team scores a goal in the first period of a hockey game? the building erupts because a goal, no matter when it's scored, alters the outcome of a game in a significant manner. the layup is still important (that was probably the wrong word to use)...but it isn't exciting. and they aren't 1/20th as important as any goal scored in a hockey game. there's no excitement to me until the very end of the game...and when that finally comes around, it's foul after foul, timeout after timeout. unwatchable to me. but again, it's opinionated. i find it boring, maybe you don't. that's cool. i'm not going to think any less of you because you like basketball. i just don't. thats all

Briere scores! 1-0 Buffalo in the first

Buffalo is starting Ty Conklin over Ryan Miller vs. the Canadiens... :blink: There's about a 5% chance of this happening, but I'm not ruling it out and I'm behind the Panthers no matter what. Next year they can easily make the playoffs as long as they don't make another inexplicably terrible trade. The only thing that worries me for the future is the big question mark at goalie, hopefully Auld will be the Auld of 05/06 next year. Hopefully Auld will be with another franchise next year...

What could possibly be terrible about it? I'm not saying you have to love it. There's a wide gap between good and terrible. If you think it falls in the middle, fine. If you think it's terrible, you're probably short. I'm just kidding. But seriously...how could the game possibly offend? i think it's boring to watch as a fan. terrible, actually...like i originally said. playing may be another matter, but that isn't what we are discussing. i like sports that build tension. i watch sports as a fan and not as entertainment. i have teams i root for and i want them to win. in baseball, you're dying inside with every pitch, especially late in the game. with one swing of the bat, the game can change. same goes for hockey - every rush up ice you can have a game-altering moment. same goes for soccer. and same goes for football, although to a lesser extent. basketball? not so much. sure, you can have game-altering runs where a team scores 14 uncontested points, but that doesn't happen suddenly. there's little importance every time a team brings the ball up the court. the best you can do is score a basket that is worth 3/100+ points. i just don't feel the tension until the very end of a game....and when that finally comes around, 90% of the time it turns into a free-throw shooting contest. it's all opinionated. i'm sure basketball fans don't look at it that way, but thats why I don't like watching that sport. i think it is an awful game to watch. there might be alot of entertaining moments that make you say "wow, what a dunk" or "wow, what an alley-oop" - but that to me is entertainiment. it's a show. it's like making a behind the back pass in hockey. i don't give a damn how the panthers score, as long as it crosses the line and they win.

false hope is better than no hope, right? florida musts if they were to make the playoffs: panthers go 4-0-0 in the remaining four games. montreal goes 1-2-1 at BEST in their remaining four games. toronto goes 2-3 at BEST in their remaining five games. carolina goes 2-2 at BEST in their remaining four games. likely? not at all. the best news is if florida goes 4-0, that would mean they beat carolina twice, knocking them out of our way. montreal plays buffalo tonight, boston, NYR and toronto. that schedule doesn't look particularly difficult after buffalo, but the rangers and leafs should be hungry. toronto plays pittsburgh tonight, NYR, Philly, NYI and Montreal next week. Again, doesn't look particularly difficult after tonight for the Leafs. I think Florida's fate will be decided by tomorrow. Toronto and Montreal HAVE to lose tonight while Florida MUST beat Carolina tomorrow. If that happens, they could be as close as two points by tomorrow night. If they're not two out by tomorrow, chances are it's over.

I actually like hockey I just hate the lame fans who were rooting for the NBA to go on strike when their own awful league (Yes, the NHL as a business and a league is awful) lost an entire season. if you're insinuating that i was one of them - i couldn't care less if the nba does or doesn't go on strike. I also hate those that get giddy because they finally beat a sport in a head to head ratings matchup even though it is nothing to hang their hat on. no one's giddy. the ratings are still terrible, but they're getting better for the nhl, and getting worse for the nba. honestly, i couldn't give a damn what the nba does or how many people watch it. but as far as the nhl is concerned...it is a good sign. TV ratings are up leaguewide and they broke their attendance record in two consecutive months. they're on an upswing....now it'll be interesting to see if they can keep growing or if they will hit another wall. with the nba on such a downfall and the stars they are growing (crosby, ovechkin, etc.) - i think they are well positioned to keep this up and possibly surpass the nba within the next couple of years...although i think alot of that depends on whether they get back on espn or not, but thats a whole other issue.

Basketball has the advantage that anyone can just go out and buy a 5 dollar ball and play at a park. If you want to play hockey you need to find a rink, then buy hundreds of dollars of equipment. Well, this, I think, is why basketball will always remain popular in this country, and why hockey will always remain more of a niche sport. There are just large portions of this country that will never care about the NHL no matter what. There was a time, like 10 years ago, where it really seemed like hockey was becoming part of the culture down here. It doesn't seem like that to me anymore, but this is obviously a matter of perception. I don't see as much roller hockey as I used to. I don't get the sense that people care about the Panthers like they did 10 years ago. But really there's no reason for this NHL on NBA violence. Both sports are fun, both have their fans, etc. Why can't we all just get along? I dunno. I'm not saying this is the norm, but in general, the NBA fans on here take every chance to ridicule hockey. Its inevitable. Like it all started with us saying the NHL was greater than the NBA. Ok, that is our opinion, leave us to our opinion and don't ridicule us for having it. As it stands, I think hockey is much better than basketball to me. But I won't be redundant so I agree with the argument that the sport of basketball is much more accesible. the problem i have with most fans that ridicule the game is they do it out of ignorance. they don't understand the game - so instead of making an effort to learn the rules and the intricacies of what makes the sport so intense, they just bash it because it's easier. i have no respect for anyone like that. if they took the time to TRULY learn the sport, go to a few games and look at it with an OPEN mind....and still didn't like it, well then, that's fine. i know basketball. i have played it, i understand it, i've been to several heat games. but i think the sport is terrible. that's my preference. i like games with tension and intensity. i don't get any of that from watching a basketball game. 100% of the people I have introduced to hockey have come away beyond impressed and, at least to a point, have followed it ever since. it's not for everyone. i know that. but i'd be willing to bet my life that at least 90% of the people who continously say hockey sucks, say it out of ignorance. they don't know, so they don't care. it's idiotic, but it doesn't surprise me at all really. let them be.

The NBA is not plummeting. Anyone who says it is on a downfall has absolutely nothing to back that up besides perception. I'm sorry but the middle part of the Post-All Star Break part of the NBA season is probably one of the most uninteresting things in sports. how about a consistent downward spiral in TV ratings? that good enough for you or will you try and hide that with another excuse? perception is one thing - fact is another. something you can't cover with your excuses. The NHL is popular in Canada thing is pointless as well. Of course it is. That is like talking about soccer ratings in the US and then backing soccer up by saying a lot of people watch it in Brazil. no it's not - because the MLS gets nothing out of Brazil. It's a completely different league down there whereas the NHL is feeding two mouths in the united states and canada. if we're discussing the sports popularity in the US - it's irrelevant. if we're discussing the league's wellbeing, it definatley isn't. more people watch the NHL in Canada alone ( a country of 32 million mind you) than the NBA gets from the US. The fact that the NHL/it's fans have to hang their hat on beating the NBA one time this season when the much more popular NCAA tournament was going on shows how crappy that league's viewership/fanship is. no one is hanging their hat. if you actually read my post, you'd see i said the NBA still has the NHL as far as popularity in this country. but the disparity between the two isn't nearly as big as it was a few years ago. notice the increase in panther-related shows/talk on WQAM? as much as they may want to, they aren't completely ignoring the sport like they were just a few years ago. there still is more heat talk, but not by much anymore. The NHL and its fans are the only ones trying to make this a competition. Every other sport just ignores you. who cares if every sport ignores the nhl? what does that have to do with anything? what is important is the fans - and as you see by the numbers, just as many people are ignoring the nba as the nhl right now.

regardless of what sport you prefer - and it is painfully transparent by the homerism shown by both sides in this thread - one thing that is obvious: both ratings are terrible. that being said - the nba is absolutley plummeting. the entire sport has been in a downfall for some time now, but they're reaching nhl-esque levels in ratings - the one and only thing that they really had over them. on the other hand - the nhl is (slowly) on the upswing. last time this season, the nhl was consistently drawing .5's and .6's. now their ratings are hovering around 1.0-1.3 - still terrible, but rome wasn't built in a day. they are nearly doubling their ratings on nbc as well as on versus, where they have tripled their ratings as of late. ...and keep in mind i said verus. not ESPN. what would these ratings be like had the NHL not screwed the pooch and put themselves on an irrelevant network? impossible to say one way or another, but chances are they'd be better off than they are now. the NHL finally has its young superstars in Crosby, AO and Malkin (among others) to compete with the D-Wade's of the world for star-appeal. there's alot less baggage and drama with their stars and alot more parity and excitement in the regular season for most markets. also keep in mind that the nhl is feeding two countries while the the NBA only really feeds one (if you thought hockey was unpopular here.....). if you're comparing their popularity in the US - that statement is irrelevant....but as a whole, the nhl is alot better off than the nba considering this fact. more people watch the nhl in canada alone. attendance is a hot subject in the nhl. some teams do give away vouchers, but it is used as a marketing ploy. the nhl has a disadvantage considering that many markets (especially in the south) are unfamiliar with the sport. the nba doesn't have to deal with that at all. everyone in this country knows what basketball is and how the game is played. the freebies are around, but only a handful of teams do it (florida, washington, nashville, maybe atlanta) and they are dwindling. anyway, my preference is obviously hockey. basketball is still more popular but i have a good feeling that is going to change within the next few years.

refs were bad, but i don't think it affected the result of the game. we got absolutley dominated from start to finish. belfour stood on his head and grahame was untested...it shouldn't have been as close as it was. we don't match up well against that team. they play an up-tempo style and are one of the few teams that can match our forwards speed. it gives our defensmen fits because most of them (aside from Jay) aren't the quickest. we still have a game in hand on them though, and they have a back-to-back with new jersey, who i don't think they fair well against...especially considering grahame is going to be in goal and not ward (the only reason they beat the devils last year). 4 of our next 5 are at home, and we have 2 games remaining with carolina and one with the islanders (now tied with carolina for the 8th seed with their loss to montreal) we're not out of it by any stretch IMO. it's a longshot, but it was a longshot before tonights game began,.

belfour stole two points - plain and simple. we got outplayed pretty badly by the flyers most of that game. belfour kept us in it and an EXTREMELY lucky bounce was the difference. 4 points out...saturday night will probably be the biggest game this team has had in the last seven years. anyone else goin'? show some support

blah...very underwhelming return, but whatever, kinda wanted to see him moved regardless. i was afraid they were going to re-sign him just to save face. with that kind of injury the last thing we need is to lock up $5million in him. use the cap room on someone else

ALSO: Alex Auld confirmed today that he needs surgery and is out for the rest of the season. Hate to say this because he's such a cool guy, but Alex may have played his last game for the Panthers. That Luongo trade was just dynamite. That trade keeps looking worse and worse. We get Bertuzzi for 7 games and Auld plays an average season then misses the last 2 months of the year and probably wont get resigned. In retrospect we essentially put Loungo on waivers. We did get Allen even if thats not fair consolation for Luongo. And anyway doubting that Allen will be a Panther for a while should say so now, because I think if this Roberts trade goes through, we may end up with, without a doubt, they most solid defense core in the East. Montreal for at least the remainder of the season has something to say about that. And, while there'd be a lot of top, puck moving talent, you need that gritty stay at home blue liner to pair with a guy like Bouwmeester to let him move up and take more chances. Adding 6 guys that have a big shot, puck moving skills and a nose for the back of the net could (and I'd dare say would) lend itself to a situation of too many chefs ruining the broth. 1-6, talent would certainly be plus plus, but it may not be as spread in a beneficial way. We already have Allen and Salei. Those two guys are as gritty as they come. Montreal will not lay claim to that much longer. They already traded Rivet, a mainstay for years. Souray is a surebet to leave. Markov might be gone as well. NEW RUMOR: TSN: Darren Dreger reported tonight during the second intermission of the Canadiens-Maple Leafs game that the Leafs have apparently offered the Florida Panthers a second and fourth round picks, plus a prospect defenseman, for Gary Roberts. Spector's Note: Hmmm, interesting. The Senators started the day considered front-runners for Roberts' services, but after the Pens made their pitch of prospect Noah Welch, Sens GM John Muckler said he won't part with anyone off his roster at the deadline. With the Leafs making this offer, I'd say that would put them into the role of front-runner. We're still awaiting word if Roberts will waive his NTC regarding the Penguins offer. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're letting homerism blind numbers. Bouwmeester (while the skill is there unquestionably) has nut put up offensive numbers to justify being considered a #1 DMan. 46 points last season, on pace for 39 this season...yet to have double digit goals in a season (although his next goal this season will end that). He's a far cry from what was expected when he was drafted. However, his +- is awfully pretty this year, especially when you consider how awful this team is. Van Ryn's regressed immeasurably this season to last, I'd argue taht you're insane thinking of him as anything more than a 5th or 6th dman...ditto Salei and his -12. Same story with Allen, he's a second line type D-Man, and even that may be a stretch on a "make noise" playoff team. What Salei was when he left Anaheim is much different than what he is in Florida, even if his play has improved lately. So again, like much of the Panthers, this vaunted defense is high on potential, but lacking in production. I'd be hesitant to crown them the best in the east. Bouwmeester, without a doubt, is a #1 defensman. there's absolutley zero question about it. hell, you could make an argument of him being the best defensman in the east right now. chara held that claim but he has been extremely erratic for boston this year. offensive numbers don't mean nearly as much for defensmen. dan boyle is outscoring jay by a large margin and you won't find one coach in the league who would take him over bouwmeester - now or in the future. bouwmeester is a clear-cut #1 defensman. he's not elite yet (pronger, lidstrom, etc.) but he's definatley in that next tier of defensmen with the redden's, kaberle's of the world. i agree van ryn has regressed, but again, he's still easily a top-4 - EASILY. he's been erratic, no doubt, but he's had alot of problems with injuries this year and even then, he's not regressed to a point where you could consider him a #5-6 like you suggest. coming into this year the consensus was he was a decent #2/great #3. now i'd say he's a 3-4 type. salei...+/- can be deceiving. he too has been erratic at times, but not nearly to the point his +/- suggests. good #4 allen...same as salei. good 3/4 florida has a good defense...it's the last of this teams problems. inconsistent scoring and the backup goalie have been the biggest problems. florida is 13-4-5 in belfour's last 22 starts...translates to something like 45-13-15 over a full season....not half bad. the problem is auld went something like 4-15 during that span, which is absolutley atrocious. keep the defense together, add a legitamate #1 and a goal scorer or two and you should have a solid team next year.

while some of your points may hold water - your basketball comparison is rather silly. fighting is part of the sport in hockey, always has been. it definatley is not in basketball. the fighting isnt "encouraged", hence the 5 minute major penalties, it just isn't punished as harshly as it would be in another sport. fighting is a way for players to police themselves and also is a way for a team to change the momentum of the game. You say it's a silly comparison, but the actions in both sports are the same. A coach puts in some thugs to get back at another team. I would also compare it to when a manager in baseball tells his pitcher to throw inside. That has long been a part of the sport, but baseball has chosen to crack down on it by throwing players out of the game if there's even a question of retaliation. The offsetting 5 minute penalties in hockey hurt no one...there's no real penalty to either team there. If they wanted to discourage fighting, they'd start tossing people. I will never understand why fighting should be part of a sport like hockey, and not football or rugby or some other equally physical sport. I will never consider it part of the sport. To me, hockey is part of hockey. And fighting is just something else they do. they don't want to discourage fighting - they can't discourage fighting. it's a part of the game. if you don't consider it a part of the game you probably don't truly understand the sport. i'm not trying to insult you by saying that, but it's just the truth of the matter. fighting has been accepted ever since inaugural season. it IS part of the game. it is used to change momentum and allow players to police themselves if needed. it isn't encouraged by the nhl, but they also will never outlaw it completely. they have taken measures to control the fights with the instigator rule (and just about every hockey fan despises that rule, too) and while you may not like the fighting, most people do. why is boxing so popular? or wrestling? people like watching that stuff....why not hockey? the sport is faster than the other major sports, and is extremely physical (entertaining, for most) i don't get it....but i don't get alot of things about the american public, so whatever. Just to correct you...I never said I didn't like the fighting. I explicitly said that I enjoyed watching that fight. I just said that, for me, and I suspect for some other people, it makes it hard to take the game seriously. It was just one suggestion as to why the game isn't that popular. The comparison to boxing and wrestling is really neither here nor there, since if they took fighting out of those sports, there woudn't be much left. Besides which, boxing is not popular at all, and wrestling, well, you actually probably could take out most of the fighting and it would probably still remain popular among the niche crowd it has. Wrestling didn't really enjoy its resurgence in popularity until they started adding all the mysogyny and soap opera elements. i doubt that is it...hell, i'd go as far as saying if there were more fights the nhl would be more popular. people love violence. it's the only reason some people go to games. look at the crowd in buffalo during and after that brawl...the entire game was like a stanley cup atmosphere. Well, I never heard that. Now I really hate Keenan. How could he have turned that deal down!?! Thats ridiculous. Martin Havlat maybe injury prone but goddamn when he's healthy he maybe the best goal scorer in the game right now. Chris Phillips is a solid young defensemen and easily could be better than Allen in the long run. And Ray Emery, a goalie whose already playoff tested and one of the rising talents in the game. AND A FIRST ROUND DP!?! I hate you Keenan. I seriously, loathe you. there were some problems with that deal at the time as well. first - both havlat and phillips were due to become UFA's after this year (phillips still is). havlat publicly said he would NOT re-sign before testing the market as well. he eventually did - but at $6mil per. he's a hell of a player, but its a huge risk for them considering his lack of durability. emery is having a good season as well, but he was absolutley awful in the playoffs....so he really wasn't as attractive as he would be now. anything would be better than auld though. Los Angeles also reportedly offered Alexander Frolov, Tim Gleason and Mathieu Garon for Luongo. Garon sucks, but Auld is worse...Frolov has 30+ goals and Gleason eventually got the Kings Jack Johnson (Phaneuf-esque prospect) The silver lining of all this? Mike Keenan is gone.

regardless, how can anyone not watch hockey after seeing something like that? why? ignorance? stupidity? what do people not see in the game? i'll never understand how this sport isn't more popular in this country. Well, I watch a fight like that, and I think, "wow, that's pretty awesome." But then my next thoughts are somewhere along the lines of, "this sport is kind of ridiculous and bush-league". John Chaney, former coach of the Temple Owls, did something like this in a college basketball game, and he was suspended (by himself) for several games, and it probably expeditied the end of his career. In hockey, this kind of stuff is basically encouraged--not explicitly, but in a kind of wink-wink manner. I think it takes away from the dignity of the actual game, and drags it down more to the level of something like the WWF, or whatever they call wrestling these days. Now, I'm not equating the NHL with the WWF, so try not to get angry with me. I'm just saying this kind of stuff pulls the game down towards that level. I enjoy hockey, and I even enjoy watching some of the better hockey fights, but after seeing one, it's just hard for me to take the game seriously. Thankfully, in the playoffs, the fights decrease markedly, the players seem to focus more on actually winning, and it's harder to dismiss the game. But by that point, I don't know who's on what team, I'm not invested in anything, so...while I can take the game seriously, I just don't care. I really think that to outsiders all of the fighting makes the NHL kind of a joke. while some of your points may hold water - your basketball comparison is rather silly. fighting is part of the sport in hockey, always has been. it definatley is not in basketball. the fighting isnt "encouraged", hence the 5 minute major penalties, it just isn't punished as harshly as it would be in another sport. fighting is a way for players to police themselves and also is a way for a team to change the momentum of the game. that being said, this isn't WWE. not even close. there is a respect amongst hockey players, especially enforcers. after this brawl, the sabre who started (mair) it went over the the senators locker room after the game and apologized to the player he went after. i also remember seeing a laraque fight earlier this year where the dialoge was something like this: Ivanis: "drop em?" Laraque: "square off?" Ivanis: "yep" Laraque: "OK, good luck man" ...then they start whaling on each other. the good luck was genuine too. they don't fight just to fight - its a part of the sport. hockey is an extremely physical sport and at some point, players need to police themselves. last night was a perfect example of that for the sabres. when players like neil think its ok to level your captain on a questionable (but defined as "legal") hit....you're definatley going to see some consequences. there was no penalty but neil's intent was pretty clear. if there was no fighting, dirty players like chris neil would be able to run around throwing flying elbows all game long and THAT is how you see the serious injuries, not during fights. players quit throwing once a guy is down or they think has had enough. and while you may not like the fighting, most people do. why is boxing so popular? or wrestling? people like watching that stuff....why not hockey? the sport is faster than the other major sports, and is extremely physical (entertaining, for most) i don't get it....but i don't get alot of things about the american public, so whatever. Emery was loving all of that. He absolutely annihilated Martin Biron. And then he fought someone else. Goalie vs a forward. When was the last time that happened? Prime reason why I hate the Sabres. That team is dirty as hell. That was a clean hit by Neil. There was nothing wrong with it whatsoever. And on top of it all, Lindy Ruff is a moron. Sabres are dirty? since when? they have been stereotyped as an extremely soft team this year - the reason the whole ordeal occured last night is buffalo was trying to send a message that they're not soft by retaliating to a late hit by neil. it was a shoulder, but it was also late and the intent was clear. drury had already let the puck go before neil even pivoted towards drury. regardless, how can anyone not watch hockey after seeing something like that? why? ignorance? stupidity? what do people not see in the game? i'll never understand how this sport isn't more popular in this country. Ray Emery is awesome you'll be glad to know mike keenan turned down an emery, martin havlat, chris phillips and a first round pick for luongo deal then. :banghead Where in gods name did you read that deal!?! I don't believe it, but please do tell. bob mckenzie reported it the day after the trade was made (during TSN's live coverage at the draft). it has been reported by other canadian outlets as well. i can almost guarantee you it was offered. ottawa needed a goalie and they had to trade havlat anyway (and ended up not getting much for him - preissing). it was offered, but keenan is so infatuated with bertuzzi he took vancouver's package instead.

Emery was loving all of that. He absolutely annihilated Martin Biron. And then he fought someone else. Goalie vs a forward. When was the last time that happened? Prime reason why I hate the Sabres. That team is dirty as hell. That was a clean hit by Neil. There was nothing wrong with it whatsoever. And on top of it all, Lindy Ruff is a moron. Sabres are dirty? since when? they have been stereotyped as an extremely soft team this year - the reason the whole ordeal occured last night is buffalo was trying to send a message that they're not soft by retaliating to a late hit by neil. it was a shoulder, but it was also late and the intent was clear. drury had already let the puck go before neil even pivoted towards drury. regardless, how can anyone not watch hockey after seeing something like that? why? ignorance? stupidity? what do people not see in the game? i'll never understand how this sport isn't more popular in this country. Ray Emery is awesome you'll be glad to know mike keenan turned down an emery, martin havlat, chris phillips and a first round pick for luongo deal then. :banghead