Out of the Past

Other than on this site, I don't know a soul who wants a stadium in Hialeah. I guess a few on this site prefer Hialeah over downtown but if you look at Holly's poll downtown is ahead of Hialeah by a very wide margin. http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...showtopic=67870

An ace doesn't have a solid team around him and struggle to be a .500 pitcher. An ace doesn't have the highest WHIP of all the main rotation starters. DTrain pitched and deserved better than a 12-12 record but the defense behind him early in the season was horrific and he got poor run support all year long. There are better ways of judging a starter than won / loss record and DTrain's '06 season is a case in point. The poor defense also negatively impacted his ERA and WHIP.

This is my opinion of where things stand. Relocation is not an option. The Marlins are looking at two locations in Miami-Dade, downtown Miami and a location in the northwestern outskirts of Miami-Dade. Both locations have funding large gaps. Baseball officials and most people prefer the downtown location. In addition to the funding gaps both locations have major drawbacks. The downtown location lacks sufficient land to put a retractable roof on the stadium. The northwestern location is in the middle of nowhere. Broward county is also looking into a stadium in Pompano. A racetrack would provide the land and the stadium would be funded through taxes from slot machines. It's questionable whether baseball would allow a stadium on land provided by a racetrack due to gambling concerns and it's also questionable whether slot machine taxes can be used to fund a stadium because when the slots machines were approved by state and local voters the ballots stated that the taxes would be used to fund education, police, roads, firefighters, etc. and not baseball stadiums. If Broward officials try to divert the funds to a stadium I expect lawsuits left and right.

Your a moron Shamrock. Anything to mock me huh? Sure having Arod would be great. But overall I doubt it would change the publics perception of baseball down there or put that many more fans in the seats. It would limit the franchise financial mobility, even if the Yankees eat a nice amount of Arods salary. It goes completely against where this team is going, i.e. a youth movement. Even with Arod, there are still holes to fill...catcher, decent bench players, and the bullpen for example...which probably wouldnt be able to be addressed taking on Arod and whatever salary is leftover that the Yankees dont take on...meaning we wouldnt be any better off for it. Im not saying he cant do it, but HanRam might not be able to play adequete CF. We lose our #1 pitcher most likely or, if not, one of the young studs presently there...JJ, Scotty O, or Anibal. And we have nothing to replace them with. Moehler? Ill pass. Mitre? Shouldnt even be in baseball. Petit? Not seen much of him, but at press time seems to be quite the overrated kitten. IMO, while getting Arod would be a nice story and all, I dont see how it really helps the team. Since to get him, you have to make a fine # of sacrifices which could adversly affect the team in a negative way. Getting ARod would be a baseball move, not a PR move. If the Yankees eat enough of his salary to reduce our obligation to something like $40 million over 4 years then ARod wouldn't tie our financials hands. This team wasn't going for a youth movement, the movement was to stuff Loria's pockets with money. With ARod Loria can continue to stuff his pockets with money. Catcher is not a strength but it's not a hole either. Our bullpen and bench will be filled with cheap young players and cheap veterans. This will not change with or without ARod. Hanley has the tools to play CF. I agree we lose our #1 pitcher but you have to give something to get an ARod. If the scouts are correct we have other options in the minors. The bottom line is our pitching is downgraded but defense is upgraded and hitting gets an enormous upgrade. I would do it.

The TV ratings are better than the Miami Heat this year despite the awful firesale and the Heat's championship. You can't be serious. How about comparing attendance at games? Do those ratings also include the local ratings for the nationally televised games, or just on Sun Sports? The Marlins' World Series run in 2003 outrated the NBA Finals run of the Heat in 2006 by at least 5 points every game, just for starters. Secondly, the tv ratings even in a down year this year are higher than the Heat. The attendance, despite the horrendous numbers, was just 5,000 lower than the Heat in their banner year for the franchise. Take a year previous (2005), when the average attendance was higher than the 2005-2006 Heat even with all the conditions keeping people away. And oh, btw, on average baseball is much more popular than basketball in the US. The World Series outrates the NBA Finals by a lot every year and baseball sets a new attendance record every year, in parks that hold more people and with teams that play more games. Your argument is wrong. It was more than that. In the local ratings the '03 WS averaged 38.0 compared to 27.1 for the '06 NBA finals. The '97 WS averaged 41.9.

I hate the idea. I would like to see us go after the needs first, or sign Cabs to an actual deal, rather than a yearly thing. There are bigger issues with this team other than worrying about getting arod. He fills NO NEED and we can trade Willis for a position that we need-mostly CF. I don't think any deal happens without a stadium deal. Remember Delgado was bought here to help us seal the deal for a stadium and it never happened. The same may go for Arod. I HATE the idea of getting AROD when he doesn't really fill a need. Hanley - CF Uggla - 2B Miguel - 3B Alex - SS Hammer - LF Jacobs - 1B Jeremy - RF Olivo - C With that lineup what need would need to be filled? I agree bullpen but what else?

I can tell you that the other MLB owners did not want Loria to settle in 2004 or 2005. At that time, they were negotiating with DC to build a dream ballpark at zero cost to MLB, which would have influenced any stadium deal negotiated thereafter. I, too, question the effect of revenue sharing. However one thing is certain: it has helped everyone. It gave the league stability, allowing it to grow. Investments like MLBAM would not have been possible if the weakest links of the chain were not secured. And you are right that in some cases (notably teams unable or unprepared to benefit substantially from winning or whom the tax severely punishes), the revenue sharing system acts as a disincentive to its intent: improving a team's on field product, and thus making the league more competitive. It some cases, the owner could make more money with efforts to hide or restrain revenue than by winning. The Marlins, Athletics and Twins are not those teams. The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Royals, Devil Rays and Pirates are. In the case of the Marlins, your reasoning is a bit off. Using past figures the Marlins lost $20M in 2003 and received $20M in revenue sharing transfers (net: 0). All things being equal, that $50M revenue spike will result in outgoing revenue shares of no more than $10M (net: 40). Making for 40 million reasons why Loria should want to get the deal done. You're forgetting that right now he's getting $30 million in revenue sharing but with a new stadium he would no longer get that $30 million so his incremental revenues with a new stadium net of the lost revenue sharing is only $20 million ($50 million less $30 million). If the assumption taht Loria will become a revenue sharing payer at the tune of $10 million per year is correct then his net incremental revenues would only be $10 million. Under this scenario he wont move a finger until he gets the perfect deal and revenue sharing should get much of the blame as to why we don't get a stadium deal done. I guess I like revenue sharing in theory but they need to put safeguards to prevent abuse.

Rferry, an owner with deep pockets could get it done. Even Loria could get it done if he pledge additional future revenues to cover the funding gap. Sure, a richer owner COULD. And that IS a strike against Loria. But there's little incentive for an owner of the Marlins to do so. And MLB wouldn't allow it. So it's insignificant. Back in the spring of '04 if Loria had covered the $30 million funding gap he would start generating the incremental revenues by '07 or '08 but by not doing it and holding out for a "better deal" he has jeopardized or at least delayed and the flow of incremental revenues by who knows how many years so I think there was an incentive to cover that gap. I think the other owners would have preferred if Loria had covered the gap because if he had covered it then by '07 or '08 the other owners would no longer have to support him through revenue sharing welfare checks. Revenue sharing is really the problem here as it creates a disincentive for Loria to get the deal done. Once he gets a stadium he gets approximately $50 million in incremental revenue but he losses $30 million in revenue sharing so it's only a net +$20 million. If MLB eliminated revenue sharing then there would be more on an incentive for Loria to get the deal done. I hate revenue sharing.

Rferry, an owner with deep pockets could get it done. Even Loria could get it done if he pledge additional future revenues to cover the funding gap.

If you take $22 million a year and increase it by 3% each year over the next 40 years and discount it at 6% the present value is $501 million. I think the incremental revenues in a new stadium would be close to $50 million in the initial year so he could buy his own stadium and have millions left over for the other stuff. If you discount over 30 years rather than 40 years you get $423 million. I don't follow you. What does the 3% increase and 6% discount mean. Present value I understand. And I agree that the incremental revenue should be around 50 Million in year 1, but what about year 2-40. Bear with me, I have a degree in finance, but it's from UF and I graduated with just a 3.8 GPA so take it for what it's worth. Each year the incremental revenues generated by the new stadium should increase due to increases in tickets prices, parking fees, advertising fees, luxury boxes, etc. so the monies available to pay for the stadium ($22 million in Year 1 in the calculation) should increase every year and I assumed 3% yearly increase (historical rate of inflation). What this means is that the $22 million from Year 1 becomes $22.7 million in Year 2 and then $23.3 million in Year 3 and so on (each year increasing by 3%). The 6% is the interest rate I used to discount the future cash flows from the above paragraph. I hope that explains it. What I'm trying to illustrate is that Loria would generate so much more revenue in a new stadium compared to DS that he can well afford to buy it on his own and still have plenty left for other stuff. Of course it would be better for him if taxpayers buy him the stadium so he can keep more of the money for himself. I listen to Boog if I want to hear knowledgable baseball talk. I used to like Boog's show but since around this time last year his show was taken over by talk about his football pool which I can't imagine anyone other than the handful of people in the pool care about and that along with his idiotic and never ending manager (or coach) doesn't matter talk that has driven me away from his show. He also repeats Samson's figures regarding the team's finances as if they are fact and that bothers me.

If you take $22 million a year and increase it by 3% each year over the next 40 years and discount it at 6% the present value is $501 million. I think the incremental revenues in a new stadium would be close to $50 million in the initial year so he could buy his own stadium and have millions left over for the other stuff. If you discount over 30 years rather than 40 years you get $423 million.

I hope Fredi is not a small ball freak like Torborg. This is a scary article.

As for political support, I agree (see my final sentence), however note that political power is not necessarily related to personal wealth. For the role of an owner's wealth in building a new stadium, all proposals so far and none that should expected to be brokered by MLB feature financing on part of the Marlins' owner therefore wealth is not a factor. And if recent history tells us anything, the likelihood any owner dipping into his own wallet is unlikely let alone when there's a significant amount of revenues available from the new stadium. What we'll likely see whether this team is owned by Loria or Codina or anyone else is that stadium revenues and only team revenue will go towards stadium, payroll and the many other expenses a MLB must pay. The incremental revenues in a new stadium would be more than sufficient to pay for a $500 million stadium so Loria could, if he wanted to, buy his own stadium.

What would be the impact of Alex in SS, Hanley in CF and DTrain in pinstripes? -- Offense: huge improvement as we would have the best hitting team in the NL -- Defense: improvement in SS and a ? in CF. Frankly I don't see how Hanley could be worse than Reggie and Alfredo. Assuming he manages to be as bad as they were (just to be conservative) then our overall defense still improves due to the improvement in SS and the wash in CF -- Pitching: downgraded as we lose our best (in my opinion he still is) starter Taking all that into consideration I would make the deal.

Ownership change aside, as it won't effect much of anything, this is an interesting development. Will MLB and the county and city work together better? Will MLB be more relenting or more demanding than Loria? Surely the promise of local ownership, however unnecessary with a long lease in a revenue-producing stadium, could help grab the attention of some local politicians, A local owner with deep pockets would obviously help the stadium situation. Such an owner would be more likely to get the business community and other movers and shakers behind the stadium and these are the people who run local politics. I'll bet you we have a lot more baseball fan than opera fans but did we get a baseball stadium or a performing arts center? An owner with deep pockets is also more likely to fill the funding gap. Loria and Samson don't have the money and Samson going to Chamber of Commerce meetings to insult the local community doesn't help.

Anyways, fans of all teams think they have a shot at A-Rod at this point. The Marlins have the chips to get him, but I don't see them paying him that money. I think Alex has a no-trade clause and I don't see him waving it to go to any other team than the Marlins. If he waves it to go someplace else his reputation would take another hit as he would be viewed as if he quit on NY but if he comes here it would be viewed in part at least as if he's coming home. As for John Henry, the Marlins are in the situation they are in now because Henry entered into the lease agreement the Marlins are now saddled with. I don't think Henry entered into the bad lease with Wayne. I think when he bought the team the bad lease was already in place. The lease was entered into by Wayne the stadium owner and Wayne the team owner. I won't be happy if this FO gets A-ROD and doesn't sign Cabrera to a long term contract. And this ain't happening. I see Loria cashing in his Revenue Sharing checks, spending it on art rather than on the team. With the new collective bargaining agreement I expect significant changes with revenue sharing. Revenue sharing could be reduced, the distribution formula could be revised or additional safeguards could be put in place to ensure the money is used for its intended purposes. Maybe a combination of all of the above. Under the new agreement I don't think another owner will be able to pull a Loria and stuff his pockets with $30 million in revenue sharing.

The Yanks wouldn't cover any more than $3-4 Million a year on A-Rod's deal, but honestly, I think if there's was a legit shot of this happening Loria would do it. He is, afterall, just a fan who happens to own a team. I think if you dangled A-Rod in front of his face he'd be hard-pressed not to jump at it. I hope Loria goes after A-Rod. I can picture it now......... A-Rod freakin kills it all year, puts up MVP numbers and the FO does the only next logical thing: bench him during the playoffs so we dont get stuck with his 1-19. Alex is a .280 career hitter in the postseason. Not great but not 1-19 bad.

You don't move Hanley out of SS for a Robert Andino but you do it for Alex who happens to be baseball's best SS. The lineup had two huge holes and Alex would turn one of the holes into a major strength. We would have the league's best hitting SS and one of the top hitting CFs.

If you add Alex and Jeremy bounces back and has a modest season (say .780 OPS) we would have the best lineup in the NL.

i know i'd rather watch the games on TV than go to the stadium... not that i don't enjoy going to the stadium, but i don't think its worth the 20 bucks and 40 minute drive both ways. when i do go, it's either for a big game or when i start feeling bad about the attendance. i feel like i'm gonna get a lot of sh*t for this, but.... what do you guys think? Tommy Hutton would have your fingernails pulled out and then would have you beaten to a pulp with a baseball bat but I think you should be able to spend your time and money as you see fit so I see nothing wrong.

It looks like there were conflicting reports on whether there was a fine or not. The Herald say no, USA Today says yes.

I remember MLB investigated but wasn't sure what came of it so I looked it up. According to Hal Bodley the Marlins were fined. ============== http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:pfSP6...t=clnk&cd=3 Dombrowski deserves credit for Marlins' run If it weren't for Dave Dombrowski chances are Jeffrey Loria wouldn't be sitting in Wrigley Field tonight watching his amazing Florida Marlins tangle with the Chicago Cubs. Throw Bud Selig and Major League Baseball in the mix, too. As a fitting gesture, Loria should invite Dombrowski to the National League Championship Series. Why not when the series returns to Florida this weekend? Take a bow, Dave Dombrowski. Throw out the ceremonial first pitch. In many ways, he was the original architect of this team. It was his shrewd wheeling and dealing in one of his darkest hours that helped form the nucleus of what has become the most surprising juggernaut in the postseason. And if Selig hadn't allowed Loria and Boston Red Sox owner John Henry to play baseball's most celebrated game of musical chairs two years ago, it's doubtful this postseason scenario would be unfolding. Had Henry not been able to sell the Marlins to Loria, who sold his Montreal Expos to Major League Baseball, who knows what would have happened. Start with Dombrowski. He was the young, energetic general manager whose 1997 Marlins shocked Cleveland to win the World Series. Don't forget Loria, team President Dave Samson and general manger Admin Beinfest. They made outstanding moves such as signing catcher Ivan Rodriguez, trading for original Marlin Jeff Conine and reliever Ugueth Urbina. Replacing Jeff Torborg as manager on May 11 with Jack McKeon was a stroke of genius, even though it cost the franchise a hefty fine because minority candidates weren't considered. To Loria, that slap on the wrist was worth it. But without Dombrowski's groundwork I'm certain the Marlins wouldn't have matured so rapidly the second half when they left contenders, including Philadelphia, in their wake. And then they played David against the Goliath-like San Francisco Giants in the Division Series. Dombrowksi left the Marlins in November 2001, accepting a lucrative deal from the Detroit Tigers to be their president and chief executive officer. "I can't help but have a lot of memories, based on what's taking place there," says Dombrowski, trying to recover from the Tigers' 119-loss season. "I watched their games against the Giants. That brought back memories of what took place in 1997 and also fond memories of the players who are there now." After the Marlins won the '97 Series then-owner Wayne Huizenga ordered the team dismantled, the payroll slashed. Dombrowski was the hatchet man. "There was no choice," he says. "After I went through all the emotions attached to the decision, from anger to self-pity to why is this happening, I decided I could tackle it one of two ways ? as a professional and try to do the best job I could to rebuild the organization as quickly as I possibly could ? or quit." Dombrowski dug in, made solid deals for the high-priced Marlins he was ordered to cut and many of the results show with this team. He rattled off a list of players who came either via the draft or in deals under his watch, including Josh Beckett, Mike Lowell, Derrek Lee and Luis Castillo. "The current organization has made some excellent deals, too," says Dombrowski. "Hiring McKeon to manage was outstanding. He's been fantastic. His leadership has been tremendous." Dombrowski remains convinced "the market in Florida has the potential to be very good. Look at what's taking place now. People forget when we started in 1993 we drew over 3 million fans. But there was the labor shutdown in 1994 and there's no question if we had kept that '97 club together, we'd have been back at 3 million. "The problem is the fans there have had their hearts broken so many times. Now, they're in a position where they can see they're being romanced again. It's a very good club. They've accomplished a lot and the community is responding." Two winters ago Loria owned the Expos, who along with the Minnesota Twins, were on baseball's death row. The teams were destined for elimination. Loria agreed baseball was a lost cause in Montreal but wanted to remain in the game. Henry owned the Marlins. They were struggling in South Florida and attempts for a new stadium had failed. He wanted out, but like Loria, didn't want to leave the game. He asked about the Anaheim Angels, before pursuing the Boston Red Sox. "Baseball is an affair of the heart," he says. But to complete at a $660 million love affair, Henry had to find a buyer for the Marlins. Enter Loria. But before Loria could buy the Marlins for $158.5 million, he had to dispose of the Expos. Enter MLB. The other 29 teams, including the Red Sox and Marlins, agreed to give Loria $120 million for the Expos. To complete the deal, the commissioner's office arranged a $38.5 million loan. Two days before spring training opened in 2002 Henry and Loria took over their new teams. Dombrowski was long gone, but he made it easier for the new owner. A little tweaking here and there, not to mention the hiring of McKeon, made it happen. A friend called the other day, asking Dombrowski if he's surprised the Marlins won the Division Series. "I wasn't surprised," he says. "To me the biggest surprise is that when you're 10 games under .500 like they were that they could come back and have the year they're having."

Alex Gonzalez is one of the few players in baseball that (in the minds of most fans and casual fans) would have an equal or greater marquee value, as Dontrelle. But economically the burden is too great, even with conributions from Texas and the Yankees. from ESPN: "Under the deal, the Yankees pay Rodriguez $15 million in each of the next three seasons, $16 million each in 2007 and 2008, $17 million in 2009 and $18 million in 2010, according to contract information obtained by the AP from player and management sources. In each of the first four years, $1 million will be deferred without interest, to be paid in 2011. The trade calls for Texas to pay $43 million of Rodriguez's salary over the remaining seven years: $3 million in 2004, $6 million each in 2005, 2006 and 2010, $7 million apiece in 2007 and 2009 and $8 million in 2008. In addition, the Rangers will pay the $24 million remaining in deferred money from the original contract, with the interest rate lowered from 3 percent to 1.75 percent. All the deferred money owed by Texas -- $36 million including salaries from 2001 to 2003 -- will be lumped with the original $10 million signing bonus, of which $4 million is still owed. The payout schedule will be pushed back to 2016-2025 from 2011-20. In exchange for the alterations, which devalue the present-day value of the contract by $5 million, Rodriguez will receive a hotel suite on road trips, have the right to link his Web site to the Yankees' site and get a guarantee that the deferred money won't be wiped out by a work stoppage." http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1735937 With these kinds of numbers it would appear, as someone called it, a pipedream. But then again, that's the fun of off-seasons. The Yankees owe him $67 million over the next four years. If they eat half or even a third of it and Loria raises the payroll to $30 million it could work. As good as Alex is the Yankees need to move him. Yankee fans hate him with a passion.

Hank has been crap whe "reporting" on the Marlins. Half the guys on this board are more in touch with the Marlins than him. There's a distinction between Hank's reporting on the games and players and his reporting on the stadium. Hank doesn't follow the Marlins that closely so his reporting on the games and players is lacking but I think his contacts in the MLB front office give his reporting on the stadium some value.

Why? The way he handles himself. He isn't a likeable guy. Never has been. When his back is up against the wall, the worst of him comes out. I've always felt (Seattle, Texas, New York) he had such a fake personality. My brother who knows absolutely nothing about baseball (or any other sport) works out in the same Coral Gables gym as ARod and has dealt with ARod around the gym on repeated occasions and says ARod is a genuinely nice and friendly guy. No offense but I'll take his word over the word of a guy who has never met him but *thinks* he can ID fake personalities of people he has never met. I have never understood all the Jordan, Tiger and ARod are fakes accusations.