Out of the Past

he has some bone chip problems from last year, so that's a red flag. also i have a bit of a grudge from 2005 when he ran over johnny estrada and ruined his season with a dirty play. but if he can get back to his previous form, i think he could be a good addition for you guys. I remember that. Very dirty player. I'll pass.

Pitcher / Wins / Losses / Innings / ERA / ERA+ 1. Maddux - 176 / 88 / 2395 / 2.54 / 174 2. Clemens - 152 / 89 / 2178 / 3.02 / 163 3. Glavine - 164 / 87 / 2228 / 3.21 / 133 4. Johnson - 150 / 75 / 2064 / 3.15 / 146 Pedro and Mussina didn't pitch the full decade: Pedro - 107 / 50 / 1359 / 2.83 / 167 Mussina - 136 / 66 / 1772 / 3.50 / 135

I'm not 100% familiar with the area. Would it be considered downtown?, uptown?, Motown?...or none of the above? Is it within walking distance of all those office workers and execs that are supposed to stream out of work and head to the game? Are you familiar with the Omni Mall (it may have a new name now)? This is a few blocks west of the Omni and maybe a couple of miles north of Downtown. I think this is right in the middle of a really bad part of town but I think this discussion is moot because I think the writer of the article made a mistake in his description of the stadium's location.

Beinfest gets an incomplete. He has his hands tied by the lack of money. Ownership gets an F. Lack of money does not prevent Beinfest from getting creative in trading some of the Marlins prospects. I'm not saying he should sell the farm, but we have enough high rated pitching prospects to put together in a package with some of the more marginal players on our 25-man roster to get what we need (and still have a sizeable squad of strong arms in our system). We have holes to fill and we have valuable chips to trade to fill those holes but just because the trades haven't been made doesn't mean Beinfest has done a bad job. We don't know what the trade proposals were. If ownership was willing to spend $35 in payroll (a payroll amount that would leave them with a big fat operating profit at year-end) then I believe Beinfest could have fileld the holes. That's the reason I give Beinfest an Incomplete and the owner an F.

People should also remember that Miami is among the nation's poorest cities before they start comparing them to the teams of richer cities across the country. While the "city of Miami" may be poorer, you've really got to look at Greater Miami and Broward. Areas such as Coral Gables and Aventura clearly skew the other way, and they should be a significant source of ticket-buyers at the current (as well as the new) stadium location. We all know they are not because of team record, climate, and amenities. All told, there is an unbelievable amount of personal wealth in South Florida. All you've got to do is look at the society pages on Sunday, to see how many $1,000 a plate black tie events happen every single weekend. You just know that Sean Flynn et al struggle to tap into this market. Once you get just 2% of those folks on board, you basically sell out your IF box seats for every game. I agree. The comparison with the Mets was a valid one. The City of Miami makes up between 5% and 10% (closer to 5%) of the South Florida population. If you look at South Florida as a whole I'll bet the per capita income is very close and maybe even higher than that of NYC. The Marlins draw from the 3 counties (Dade ~40%, Broward ~40%, Palm Beach ~10%) and not just from the City of Miami.

I think the boston and NY media has way over-rated Clemens over his career as well. ESPN pretty much might as well build an altar and worship the guy as a false idol I think he has earned just about any accolade he gets because of his combination of excellence and longevity. His 144 ERA+ with 4800 innings pitched is pretty special. I think he is top 10 ever but I dont think it is fair to talk about hyping for Gibson when we are in the era of hype. It is exactly opposite of the time periods. Both are top 10 ever pitchers perhaps top 5 ever. For what it's worth the "experts" voted Clemens ahead of Gibson as the best living pitcher. Gibson was voted 4th. He should be 5th or 6th after Clemens, Seaver, Maddux and Johnson and maybe Palmer. Palmer got screwed out of the list. ========================== The Greatest Pitcher Alive by David Gassko May 05, 2006 Monday, ESPN published a much-publicized feature ranking the greatest living pitchers. The list was based on a poll of 32 ESPN baseball "experts," who all agreed that Roger Clemens was the greatest living pitcher, followed by Tom Seaver, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Greg Maddux, Bob Feller, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Steve Carlton, and Juan Marichal to round out the top-ten. The entire article: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...-pitcher-alive/

I think the boston and NY media has way over-rated Clemens over his career as well. ESPN pretty much might as well build an altar and worship the guy as a false idol I think he has earned just about any accolade he gets because of his combination of excellence and longevity. His 144 ERA+ with 4800 innings pitched is pretty special.

Clemens is much better than Gibson. This should not even be debated. Clemens is one of the top handful of pitchers ever. Gibson is not anywhere close to that. Your last sentence is one of the most ridiculuos statements I have ever heard on marlinsbaseball.com Gibson is probably between the 10th and 15th best pitcher ever and that's nowhere close to the top handful of pitchers. You come across as the typical guy who allows his opinion to be shaped by the media and the media loves (and overrates) Gibson so I understand where you're coming from.

Beinfest gets an incomplete. He has his hands tied by the lack of money. Ownership gets an F.

Accurately comparing any pitcher who played before 1969 to any pitcher afterwards is impossible. Prior to that season, there were no height restrictions for the pitching mound. As I recall most mounds were around 16" in height before the change, whereas the new rule stipulates that the mound must be 10". The change was made because league ERA's were at record lows, but so were batting averages. This is in part demonstrated by Gibson's own 1968 season where he had a microscopic ERA of 1.12. During that period, the game favored pitchers so much that it has been called the "second deadball era" (the first having ended with the emergence of Babe Ruth). I would also note that Clemens pitched during the "steroid era", where certain players (not all) had a very unfair advantage over their competition. Based on his sheer domination, Clemens could very easily be one of those players, though who knows? What it ultimately points to is that we cannot compare players from different eras. What I will say without a doubt is that Clemens was the MOST dominant pitcher of his era. How his dominance compares to the dominance of other players during their respective eras is beyond my scope of statistical analysis. Now keeping that in mind, understand that Roger Clemens pitched in the most offensively bloated period in baseball history. While doing so, he's become second on the all time strike-out list, has 100 more wins than Gibson, and has dominated for nearly 2 decades. Mainly because of those reasons, if pushed to choose, I pick Clemens. I think you can compare players from different eras by comparing them to their contemporaries. For example Clemens has been in the top 3 in ERA 8 times and in the top 3 in innings pitched 6 times. Gibson was in the top 3 in ERA only twice and in the top 3 in innings pitched only 4 times. Clemens vs Gibson is a 1st round KO.

Clemens is much better than Gibson. This should not even be debated. Clemens is one of the top handful of pitchers ever. Gibson is not anywhere close to that.

He should have left Florida in a Popemobile, driving 5 mph and waving goodbye to throngs of supporters on his way to his new job. That would have been more appropriate, I think. 2) It's Nick Saban. I don't think I've seen anyone in the world of college/professional sports in the non-JD Drew category elicit such a feeling of betrayal and relief in a fanbase. I speak for myself here, but I'm pretty sure the majority of Dolphin fans think that Saban's a piece of sh*t who left the Dolphins in a worse state than he found them (and that's saying something) and will really be better off with him gone. If true, then why all the bitterness? Shoot, when the Blue Jackets fired Galant I did cartwheels. You nailed Buckeye. Saban did not do a good job and was likely to get canned after next season so by leaving now it's better for the Dolphins as we can move forward today, not after next season, and this way we save $9 million. I think people feel betrayed because he quit to take another job. I guess the ones that feel betrayed have never changed jobs.

I think I dislike Treanor as much as anyone can but I'll give him credit in that last year he played good defense and that was a major improvement over his '04 and '05 defensive play which was mediocre at best. Last year he still stunk at the plate but to his credit he was no longer the automatic out he was in '04 and '05. With all that said I still hope we replace him with a more capable backup. Last year may have been his career year. In '04 Jack basically refused to play him down the stretch although Paul could barely walk and last year Joe refused to play him down the stretch although Olivo was obviously worn down. We need a backup that the manager is comfortable playing at least once or twice a week down the stretch in order to keep Olivo fresh. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stat...context=batting http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stat...ontext=fielding

Hard to imagine anyone can really be unhappy with the production we got from the catcher position last year...especially relative to the salary paid. Doesn't mean we can't want an upgrade if the option presents itself ala a Dontrelle trade but we're better off at catcher than alot of other teams. No need to trade Dontrelle to get a backup catcher who can hit ? and that is all MarlinsLou and I have been talking about getting. Shamrock is probably right about Treanor not going anywhere... I just think the backup catcher situation is going to be addressed sooner or later and if we can find a more permanent solution this offseason, great. I don't think it will be addressed in '07. Treanor will be the backup. That's regrettable but that's reality.

In Bowden's early years at FSU the Noles would play anyone anywhere even if they didn't get return home games. A team like Boise State that plays in a crap conference needs to follow FSU's example of the late 70's / early 80's if they want to earn respect. As it is now most people give little respect to a team that goes undefeated wghile playing a crap schedule in a crap conference and that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

I think some are getting carried away with Cody's split vs lefties. The sample size is minimal and I doubt he'll maintain the pace of a homer every 12 ABs vs lefties for the rest of his career. With that said platooning him in CF is the "best" option we have with what we have in the roster.

I guess I'm in the minority regarding the NL East in '07. I think the Phillies should better because their rotation is improved. Hammels will be in there the full season and Eaton, Moyer and Garcia are upgrades over Lidle, Madson, Wolf and Floyd. I also think the Braves should be better because James will be in there for the full season and Hampton will be back and I can't imagine Hudson not bouncing back from his poor year. I also think their bullpen will be much improved with a full year of Wickman and the Soriano addition. Regardign the Mets their question mark is the rotation but last year their 3 best starters were Glavine, El Duque and Maine (Pedro was injured and pitched poorly) and nexyt year El Duque and Maine will be there from the start. The Mets should be good enough to win 90 games. I should revise my Marlins prediction because although we lost Helms and Borowski we will have JJ and Anibal in the rotation the full season and Tank will be here from the start so all that should help. In a nutshell I think the Phillies, Braves and Marlins will be as good or a little better than in '06. The Mets may be a little weaker but still good enough to win the division. The Nats will be a disaster.

If there was a playoff system in which 8 teams get in then they should be in there but under the current system where 2 teams play for the championship then the answer is no. When you play in a weak conference you need to play top teams in your non-conference schedule but they don't do that. By now it should be pretty clear that going undefeated with a weak schedule is not enough and it shouldn't be enough. Teams should get credit for playing tough schedules and should be penalized for playing weak ones.

Last year the Marlins won 78 games. The current version of the '07 team is not as good as the '06 team. I expect the rest of the NL to be a bit better in '07 compared to '06. As of right now I would expect about 74-76 wins. They need to address the bullpen and CF.

Boone is a bottom of the barrel player - nothing more than that. I find it hard to believe some are excited about him.

41-34 4.05 was Zito over the last 3 years I don't know how you evaluate pitchers but when I look at Zito I see a guy who makes all his starts every single year who averages about 6.5 innings per start and has a career ERA of 3.55 in the AL. To me that makes him a very good if not an excellent pitcher. In my opinion Zito's 3.55 ERA in the AL is better than Dontrelle's 3.44 ERA in the NL pitching half his games in a pitcher's park. In addition to that Zito has done it for 6 years while Dontrelle has done it for 3.5 years. To me that also means something.

In a statement released by his attorneys, Willis said: "Related to the incident on December 22, 2006, I want to thank everyone involved for their support and encouragement. Concerning the specifics of the evening, I acknowledge the seriousness of the situation and I understand that there is a legal process that needs to be followed. As I respect this process, the police and those involved, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time. Thank you again for understanding my position and for your continued support." Stop being a moron Dontrelle. Admit you f***ed up, donate some money to some anti-drunk driving charity, apologize to your fans, and move on. I disagree. I think Dontrelle's statement speaks for itself. Read it again. He's involved in a legal situation. I understand his situation and I still support him. He has a ton of past history of community service and has been up for the Roberto Clemente award a couple of times. . . When the time comes, I have faith that Dontrelle will make the appropriate statement Yeah, there's no point in having a lawyer if you're not going to take his/her advice. So far he hasn't apologized for anything and if the lawyers get him off I don't think he'll apologize. I mean how do you apologize for something you claim you didn't do?

original point of the thread was to ask what you guys thought how much he would get in salary out there. I should of been more clear I guess no biggie. He wont be a free agent for another 3 years (I think) but if he was a free agent right now I think he should get a little less per year than Zito just because Zito has been a little better than Dontrelle and Zito has done it for a longer period of time.

Couple of things stand out to me: 1) Why would the Giants go that high for a so-so pitcher yet let their ace sign with their primary rival...doesn't make sense, but then again, that's the Giants. 2) Rick Peterson isn't bringing out the warm fuzzies in Zito. The Yankees are "in it" just to drive the price up more and more for the Mets (and if they can deal Johnson, I wouldn't discount them actually being a player), and the Rangers are there to be Boras' favorite patsy. For all the "imminent" Zito to the Mets thoughts earlier in the offseason, I just don't see it happening. Boras won't leave the money Texas and San Fran are offering on the table to go to the Mets (who I have no reason to believe would match both the years and dollars). In his career Zito has had one mediocre season and the rest are between good and excellent and he gives you 30+ starts every year. We have a different definition of a so-so pitcher.

In a statement released by his attorneys, Willis said: "Related to the incident on December 22, 2006, I want to thank everyone involved for their support and encouragement. Concerning the specifics of the evening, I acknowledge the seriousness of the situation and I understand that there is a legal process that needs to be followed. As I respect this process, the police and those involved, it would be inappropriate to comment further at this time. Thank you again for understanding my position and for your continued support." Stop being a moron Dontrelle. Admit you f***ed up, donate some money to some anti-drunk driving charity, apologize to your fans, and move on. I agree. DTrain screwed-up and rather than admitting his mistakes and apologizing for them he's trying to get away with them. That's his right to do but it's not the right thing to do. If he gets away with it I hope that for his sake (and the sake of potential victims) at least he admits his mistakes to himself as that would make him less likely to drive drunk in the future.