Out of the Past

I actually like this signing. 2 years is a great deal for a guy who more than likely will bounce back. They've kept their young talent and signed a stopgap who is a year removed from 50 HRs. He is a career 125-130 OPS+ guy and last year is the severe outlier for his career. I think he was really undervalued on this market. Good move for the Dodgers. Actuakly his OPS+ is "only" 113. The perception is that he's a better hitter than he actually is... over 130 only once.

I think they'd take De Aza and Olivo for him If Beinfest sends to the Dodgers the testimonials from our board members on De Aza when De aza was hitting over .300 (4 for 11 or whatever it was) maybe Colletti will trade him for Martin, Loney or Kemp.

I don't think MLB will do anything. They did nothing after the '05 firesale. THey did nothing to change the rules during the last CBA.

I guess it depends on who the prospect is but the Dodgers would be dumb to trade Ethier for Gregg if Gregg is the best player they receive. If it did happen I would rather move Hammer to 3B than Ethier. Hammer is a former IF.

Not the worst idea in the world. If it doesn't work out, hopefully Coughlan is ready to come up by the All Star break and Uggla can shift to 3rd. I dont think "hopefully" and "Uggla can shift to 3rd" should be used in the same sentence. He would be a butcher over there. I've read a lot of respected sources who think that Uggla would be a much better defender at third than second. Who?

And here's another one... Miami Herald Marlins' moves all about profit, not product BY GREG COTE Marlins fans do not deserve to be made fun of, incidentally. The team's hard-core fan base of 10,000 or so stalwarts might qualify as the best fans we have down here in any sport, given all of the fire sales and restarts they've been put through and all of the favorite players they've watched depart. Local TV ratings for Marlins games suggest a broad interest even if crowds are small. Anyone have the Marlins and Heat TV ratings? I'm pretty sure the Marlins beat them easily.

Ensberg would be worth a shot. High upside, low risk. The ESPN blog mentioned an option could be Uggla to 3B and Fredo to 2B. I think it was just the writer speculating and not based on anything he got from the team. That would be terrible.

Berardino and Jim Callis (executive editor of Baseball America) feel we could have gotten more had we traded Miguel and DTrain separately. Berardino also feels we should have waited on DTrain to see if he could build-up his trading value under Wiley. I wonder what is was the Dodgers were willing to give-up for Miguel. We know they wouldn't give-up 4 players but which 3 or which 2 were they willing to give-up? Also, last summer they were willing to give-up Billingsley, Kemp and Loney for Miguel but Beinfest said no. I would rather have those 3 guys than the 6 guys we got from the Tigers for Miguel and DTrain. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basebal...91,print.column Marlins stars may have brought more in separate trades Two stars may have have netted more separately Mike Berardino Sports columnist December 6, 2007 One-stop shopping is a wonderful concept in most areas of life. Who among us doesn't appreciate the ability to cash a check, buy groceries and have our eyes tested all under one roof? How sweet it is to be able to fill your gas tank, grab a 50-ounce soda and get your dry cleaning done at the same roadside convenience store. Too bad the same doesn't apply to baseball wheeling-and-dealing. The saddest aspect of this latest Marlins trade isn't so much that they parted with Dontrelle Willis along with longtime running mate Miguel Cabrera. Willis, purely due to economics, probably had no more than another half season left in his distinguished Marlins career. Rather, it's that they decided to toss Willis into the same deal with Cabrera, delivering them both to the Detroit Tigers' doorstep like some sort of holiday care package. (Hey, honey, check out this cheese wheel your parents sent! And wait, what's this? We got a box of pears, too!) Sure, the Marlins came away with six cheap replacements, raiding what remained of the Tigers' gutted farm system. And it's entirely possible that young center fielder Cameron Maybin and kid lefty Andrew Miller will blossom into Marlins All-Stars in due time. But considering how much time and effort the Marlins spent over the past three weeks attempting to deal Cabrera ? and Cabrera alone ? the combo move was a stunner. And, in a rarity for this Marlins administration, not particularly wise. There's a huge gap between those two showpieces the Marlins got and the other four guys in this trade. In fact, the gap is so large, Admin Beinfest would have been better off had he dealt Cabrera to the Angels for one discussed package that included future batting champion Howie Kendrick, young catcher Jeff Mathis, pitching prospect Nick Adenhart and scrappy center fielder Reggie Willits. That would have given the Marlins and rehired pitching coach Mark Wiley another eight months to rebuild Willis' value. Better still, it would have bought them more time to see if a new stadium package could be pushed through in time to save Willis from the trading block. Maybe at that point they might have even found the courage to push a multiyear offer across the table toward the most popular player in franchise history. "I always felt like the Marlins couldn't get rid of Dontrelle while they were having the stadium debate," baseball economist Vince Gennaro, an Indians consultant, said recently. "It would weaken their case dramatically. At minimum he needed to stay around, I don't think it's fair to say as window dressing, but in terms of, 'Here's a commitment level to spend.'" Commitment? How about a $15 million payroll for the second time in three years? Does that qualify? Didn't think so. By tossing Willis into the same deal now, not only were the Marlins selling low on a former 22-game winner, but they also limited their options severely. Quite simply, there aren't any franchises out there ? Marlins aside ? with enough cheap young talent to offset the staggering value of two proven championship commodities still in their mid-20s. Just to be sure I wasn't crazy, I called Jim Callis, the executive editor of Baseball America. Nobody knows more about prospects and farm systems, and that goes for people working in the game as well. "If you traded those two guys separately, you could have gotten more," Callis said. "You split 'em, like blackjack. It's like the Marlins had a pair of 10s and the dealer had a six and they just stuck instead of splitting." Granted, things apparently turned toxic with the Angels at some point last week. It's never a good sign when one team's owner (Arte Moreno) goes public with his frustrations in dealing with another club, and it's even worse when he claims they keep trying to weasel an extra player out of the deal. But there were still plenty of other places Cabrera could have landed (Dodgers, White Sox, Rangers) while still keeping Willis around, both for future discussions and psychological reasons. Instead, the Marlins went one-stop shopping with their $20 million tag team as bait. Doesn't exactly call for one of those Wal-Mart smiley face stickers, does it?

HOLY f***ING sh*t, HOW DUMB ARE YOU, EVERY TIME I READ THAT SENTENCE AND THEN YOUR EXPLANATION OF WHAT HE IS SAYING, IT MAKES ME FEEL LESS AND LESS LIKE YOU MAY BE A FULLY FUNCTIONING HUMAN BEING. HOLY f***ING sh*t, ARE f***ING KIDDING ME. YOU CAN'T BE THIS STUPID TO MISUNDERSTAND WHAT HE WROTE.

Beef.. this was alraedy doen but I'll do it again. LeBatard: Wasn't but four years ago that we had no earthly idea who Cabrera and Willis were. In fact, the two best prospects the Marlines just got -- Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller -- are considered more can't-miss great than either Cabrera or Willis ever were. Maybin and Miller are not considered more can't-miss great than Cabrera and as such Lebatard's statement is a lie. I'm also "surprised" the head columnist of the Herald had no clue who Cabrera was four years ago given that he was considered a can't miss prospect from the time he was signed in 1999 at the age of 16 with an enormous signing bonus. LeBatrad: this Marlins management team deserves both your belief and benefit of the doubt. It has been earned -- and not just because the Marlins have won as many championships in the past decade as the Red Sox have in the past eight. Here he credits to the current management team for the '97 championship. As you well know Loria / Samson / Beinfest had nothing to do with the 97 team so this is another lie.

So you pulled the "lies" thing out of your ass, like you always do. That act is getting real old, man. Bob, the lies are there. If you are too stupid to see them I really can't help you.

Typical Lebatard column sprinkled with lies to support his point of view. Name 5 lies in that article? He implies the current management was responsible for the '97 WS and he says that Maybin and Miller are more "can't miss great" than Cabrera was. That two lies. Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue on my part, but I'm not seeing where he implies that. LeBatard: this Marlins management team deserves both your belief and benefit of the doubt. It has been earned -- and not just because the Marlins have won as many championships in the past decade as the Red Sox have in the past eight.

Typical Lebatard column sprinkled with lies to support his point of view. Name 5 lies in that article? He implies the current management was responsible for the '97 WS and he says that Maybin and Miller are more "can't miss great" than Cabrera was. That two lies.

Typical Lebatard column sprinkled with lies to support his point of view.

Cameron Maybin is the prize of this blockbuster deal. He's a multi-tool player with incredible upside. He can impact the game with his speed, power and his defense. He has tremendous bat speed with power to all fields. Cam has plus speed, so he's deadly on the bases. He has very good range and possesses the arm strength needed to play centerfield. Maybin spent the majority of the year in High-A Lakeland where he hit .304/.393/.486 with 10 homeruns and 25 stolen bases in 296 at bats. He got 49 at bats at the major league level but was clearly over matched, hitting .143/.208/.265, but you have to remember this was all as a 20 year old. He's got absolute phenom potential and like Hanley, can hit anywhere in the lineup. He will be your Opening Day centerfielder Andrew Miller will slide nicely into the 2008 rotation. In 2006, he was the draft's consensus top talent and Baseball America's College Player of the Year. He slid to Detroit at No. 6 because of signability concerns. There aren't many lefthanders out there who have both Miller's size (6'6) and stuff, as he projects to be a frontline starter. He throws in the mid 90s with ease and has been gunned as high as 98mph. He has a mid-80s slider that is already a plus pitch. Miller also throws a changeup that showed much improvement throughout 2007. In 9 starts in High-A Lakeland, Miller went 1-4 with a 3.32era and a 1.41whip. He dominated once he was promoted to AA Erie, where he went 2-0 with a 0.59era and a 0.88whip in 30.2 innings pitched. Miller saw 64 innings of major league action this year as a 22 year old. he went 5-5 with a 5.63era and a 1.75 whip. Andrew will fit somewhere in the rotation of the Marlins for Opening Day. I would start the season with Maybin and Miller in the minors. This past season they both struggled with the Tigers so I wouldn't assume they're both ready to put up good numbers at the MLB level. It makes no sense to have them eat a chunk of their cheap service time while they struggle. Let them get more seasoning in the minors so when called-up they're more likely to produce.

How big are these "ifs"? - DTrain, Nolasco and Olsen combine for 90 starts with a 4.50 ERA - Anibal gets 25 starts with a 3.50 ERA - we get a 5.00 ERA in the remaining 47 starts - we play defense the way we played it the 2nd half of '06 - Jeremy stays healthy and OPSes .925 - we keep Miguel If these "ifs" come through we would reduce the numbers of earned runs allowed by approximately 50, would reduce the number of unearned runs allowed by approximately 32 and would increase the number of runs scored by approximately 54 and would likely put us in the low to mid 80s in wins.

I fail to see how Uggla is that much worse than Cabrera. If anything, our defense will be improved by taking Uggla off second. Uggla can't throw. Playing 3B in the minors he made a ton of errors. IIRC, his 3B fieding % in the minors was worse than Cabrera's fielding % this past season.

Getting a great hitter like Kendrick for second (and consequently Uggla moves to third), Willits in center and leading off, Mathis behind the dish, and a pretty good starting prospect would definitely help. Now we would likely only get three of those four, if that, or maybe we get Wood, who is no slouch himself. A Cabrera trade is not going to be a giveaway. That trade wouldn't make us a better team. Mathis is likely to end up as a bust. Willits will not hit better than the average CF and in fact a platoon of Cody and whoever would easily out hit him. Kendrick will likely be a good player but not a super star. Unless the pitcher is a #1 or a #2 this would be one of the worst trades in a very long time.

As for Cabrera, multiple sources say the Marlins are committed to trading the 24-year-old slugger because they simply can't afford him. After making $7.4 million this past season, the Venezuelan native is in line to earn more than $10 million. Cabrera, like Willis, isn't eligible for free agency until after the 2009 season. Yup, baseball decision. :thumbup I don't think anyone here believes that moving Cabrera is a baseball decision I can think of more than a few. http://www.marlinbaseball.com/forums/index...t=0&start=0 :whistle I believe the term "better" was used more than a few times by the day traders. So you think, if money was not an issue, that anyone on this site would want to move Miguel Cabrera? Come on. We all know the reason we are moving Cabs, but some of us think in the right move we improve as a team. Other than maybe trading him to the Dodgers, which seems unlikely at the moment, I don't think trading him will improve the team. Can you give an example of a realistic trade to anyone other than the Dodgers that would improve the team.

Looking at OPS+, Schneider was better than Olivo, a little below Lo Duca, and waaaaaay better than Kendall and Barrett who many on this board adore. OPS+ ---- Lo Duca - 80 Schneider - 77 Olivo - 72 Barrett - 68 Kendall - 63 Reading about the trade in different places it seems that Milledge's "value" as a prospect has dipped.

What I noticed is that to a large degree, probably higher than just about any other player, his OBP is impacted by getting hit by pitches. Take it for what you want. I would prefer if a guy built up his OBP by taking a lot of walks or by getting a lot of hits rather than getting pluncked at a record rate. If you disagree that's fine with me.

Schneider hasn't OPS'd above .662 in 2 years he's terrible offensively Yes, he has struggled the last two years. How good do you think Milledge will be? Considering he's just now going to be 23, and with as good of an eye as he has, I can see an .800 OPS or better and if the power ever comes around, I think he can be very good Two thing he has going for him are his HBP and IBB. This season he had 9 of them in about 200 PAs and that pumped up his OBP by some .045. In the minors his OBP was pumped by his HBP and IBB by about .040. I don't know what are the averages but those numbers seem pretty high. If he keeps gettign pluncked hopefully, for him, he can stay healthy.

Schneider hasn't OPS'd above .662 in 2 years he's terrible offensively Yes, he has struggled the last two years. How good do you think Milledge will be?

2006 data (per Forbes): ================== Revenue $122 mil Operating Inc. $43.3 mil Player Expenses $31 mil Gate Receipts $16 mil http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_...ins_336786.html

Heh sorry... Explain why you like Schneider and why you don't like Milledge I think Schneider is one of the top defensive catchers. He doesn't hit much but is not that bad compared to the average catcher. I also think Church is a pretty good hitter and have always wondered why they don't give him more playign time. Looking at Milledge's '07 numbers I guess he did a bit better than I thought but I don't think he has a lot of power or is that speedy and I don't like his OF play.