September 12, 200521 yr In the 60s and 70s often the pitchers would be ina 4 man rotation. Specially when it became an important time and needed. Why dont we go into that now? It would give us a better chance to get Willis and Beckett out there. Since every game from here on out counts.
September 12, 200521 yr Arms are conditioned differently now than they were then. It's kind of like taking a guy who's used to running a couple miles every day, and then asking him to run a marathon.
September 12, 200521 yr dontrelle would say yes. vargas would say yes. beckett would say okay and then get injured and aj would say owe 'my arm hurts, and why should i have to pitch on fourdays rest if no one comes to see me pitch"
September 12, 200521 yr Author it has happend in the 80s and 90s too. We cant be sending out there valdez like we have. Otherwise we need to flip between vargas/johnson/valdez/moeheler for those last starts often. It is often done, I am just wondering if Jack would do it? I think it might hurt us in the playoffs but it would give us. ALOT better chance t oget into the playoffs.
September 12, 200521 yr Now would be a good time to start it. The rest of the schedule could set up like this: Mon. 12 at Houston Willis Tue. 13 at Houston Beckett Wed. 14 at Houston Burnett Thu. 15 at Houston Vargas Fri. 16 Philadelphia Willis Sat. 17 Philadelphia Beckett Sun. 18 Philadelphia Burnett Mon. 19 Off Day Tue. 20 at NY Mets Willis Wed. 21 at NY Mets Beckett Thu. 22 at NY Mets Burnett Fri. 23 at Atlanta Vargas Sat. 24 at Atlanta Willis Sun. 25 at Atlanta Beckett Mon. 26 Washington Burnett Tue. 27 Washington Vargas Wed. 28 Washington Valdez Thu. 29 Off Day Fri. 30 Atlanta Willis Sat. 1 Atlanta Beckett Sun. 2 Atlanta Burnett Notice the rest they would all get before the final series.
September 12, 200521 yr I wouldn't think that this is the time of the year to be fooling around with the rotation. Burnett was cruising until they started messing with the 5 man than the 4 man and then back to the 5 man rotation. Some of the surgically restored arms aren't built for that type of tinkering.
September 12, 200521 yr I wouldn't think that this is the time of the year to be fooling around with the rotation. Burnett was cruising until they started messing with the 5 man than the 4 man and then back to the 5 man rotation. Some of the surgically restored arms aren't built for that type of tinkering. 941510[/snapback] I'd like to see Moehler get another start. He's appears to be much stronger than he was a few months ago. Let Moehler take one of AJs starts if AJ lays another egg in Houston this week.
September 12, 200521 yr Now would be a good time to start it. The rest of the schedule could set up like this: Mon. 12 at Houston Willis Tue. 13 at Houston Beckett Wed. 14 at Houston Burnett Thu. 15 at Houston Vargas Fri. 16 Philadelphia Willis Sat. 17 Philadelphia Beckett Sun. 18 Philadelphia Burnett Mon. 19 Off Day Tue. 20 at NY Mets Willis Wed. 21 at NY Mets Beckett Thu. 22 at NY Mets Burnett Fri. 23 at Atlanta Vargas Sat. 24 at Atlanta Willis Sun. 25 at Atlanta Beckett Mon. 26 Washington Burnett Tue. 27 Washington Vargas Wed. 28 Washington Valdez Thu. 29 Off Day Fri. 30 Atlanta Willis Sat. 1 Atlanta Beckett Sun. 2 Atlanta Burnett Notice the rest they would all get before the final series. 941507[/snapback] I'd do it, but it doesn't set us up well for the playoffs if the Saturday Atlanta game is a must win. That's why this is a catch-22. We have to make the playoffs, but we also have to set ourselves up to do well once we get there. I don't know if I'd want Jason Vargas starting game one in St. Louis.
September 12, 200521 yr Now would be a good time to start it. The rest of the schedule could set up like this: Mon. 12 at Houston Willis Tue. 13 at Houston Beckett Wed. 14 at Houston Burnett Thu. 15 at Houston Vargas Fri. 16 Philadelphia Willis Sat. 17 Philadelphia Beckett Sun. 18 Philadelphia Burnett Mon. 19 Off Day Tue. 20 at NY Mets Willis Wed. 21 at NY Mets Beckett Thu. 22 at NY Mets Burnett Fri. 23 at Atlanta Vargas Sat. 24 at Atlanta Willis Sun. 25 at Atlanta Beckett Mon. 26 Washington Burnett Tue. 27 Washington Vargas Wed. 28 Washington Valdez Thu. 29 Off Day Fri. 30 Atlanta Willis Sat. 1 Atlanta Beckett Sun. 2 Atlanta Burnett Notice the rest they would all get before the final series. 941507[/snapback] I'd do it, but it doesn't set us up well for the playoffs if the Saturday Atlanta game is a must win. That's why this is a catch-22. We have to make the playoffs, but we also have to set ourselves up to do well once we get there. I don't know if I'd want Jason Vargas starting game one in St. Louis. 941518[/snapback] It also wouldn't set us up well if we have to play a tiebreaker (or two) to make the playoffs.
September 12, 200521 yr Vargas is showing obvious signs of fatigue, so we're going to give him less rest in between starts. Brilliant!
September 12, 200521 yr dontrelle would say yes. vargas would say yes. beckett would say okay and then get injured and aj would say owe 'my arm hurts, and why should i have to pitch on fourdays rest if no one comes to see me pitch" 941500[/snapback] It's funny because it's true :lol .
September 12, 200521 yr Author the braves used it for about 3 weeks left in a season in the 90s so it is possible... just a thoughts for you all to consider
September 12, 200521 yr I remember the Giants using it in the 90s one year when they had Billy Swift and John Burkett. It can work, but the Marlins have so few days off in between series.... so it would be tough.
September 12, 200521 yr Vargas is showing obvious signs of fatigue, so we're going to give him less rest in between starts. Brilliant! 941610[/snapback] Regular rest hasn't been doing much to help him either. If he has "dead-arm," and he's keeping it to himself...that's his own fault.
September 12, 200521 yr Author Vargas is showing obvious signs of fatigue, so we're going to give him less rest in between starts. Brilliant! 941610[/snapback] Regular rest hasn't been doing much to help him either. If he has "dead-arm," and he's keeping it to himself...that's his own fault. 941772[/snapback] exactly and who said you need to start vargas there. Any of them get tired over much y ou can sub in and out. But, it gives beckett and willis 2 more starts each at least through the year. I will take an 80% d-train over a 100% valdez anyday.
September 12, 200521 yr I like using Moehler and Valdez as a two-man starting unit...just like they did in Washington last week...Valdez for 5, Moehler for 3...same thing more or less, every single time, get them and the pen used to it...stick with it... That way we can say we have 4 starters and 2 "half-starters"....thus our rotation is... 1. Willis 2. Beckett 3. Burnett 4. Vargas 5. Valdez/Moehler ...thank you come again
September 12, 200521 yr Vargas is showing obvious signs of fatigue, so we're going to give him less rest in between starts. Brilliant! Regular rest hasn't been doing much to help him either. If he has "dead-arm," and he's keeping it to himself...that's his own fault.exactly and who said you need to start vargas there. Any of them get tired over much y ou can sub in and out. But, it gives beckett and willis 2 more starts each at least through the year. I will take an 80% d-train over a 100% valdez anyday.To TSwift: Regular rest hasn't done him any good, so if logic follows having less rest will be even worse for him. A dead arm is entirely possible, he's pitched quite a bit of innings this season and last. But, assuming this is just a bump, why would starting him with three days rest especially after he's struggled his last two starts falling even to see the third inning in the latter appearance make things better all of a sudden? It might cause him to fall even farther down into a tailspin. If 100% Vargas (assuming no info at this point is just a shelling and not an injury) can't get it done, why is 75-80% Vargas going to do better? To FishFan: You do realize you contradict yourself in that post, correct? "who said you need to start vargas there" is fine, but then what happens with "I will take an 80% d-train over a 100% valdez anyday." ? We can't just assume Moehler is going to be plugged back into the starting rotation when he seems rather comfortable as the first fireman out of the pen, why mess with that? It's no secret that we need Dontrelle to continue doing his thing, and for Josh and AJ to step it up here in the next couple of weeks to be able to seize a playoff spot and then succeed in the playoffs once we arrive there. Now you have to ask yourself, is the increase in the quantity of starts for the Big 4 worth the risk that one of them could get hurt or one or more could fall because of the lack of rest and the higher stakes each start.
September 13, 200521 yr Vargas is showing obvious signs of fatigue, so we're going to give him less rest in between starts. Brilliant! Regular rest hasn't been doing much to help him either. If he has "dead-arm," and he's keeping it to himself...that's his own fault.exactly and who said you need to start vargas there. Any of them get tired over much y ou can sub in and out. But, it gives beckett and willis 2 more starts each at least through the year. I will take an 80% d-train over a 100% valdez anyday.To TSwift: Regular rest hasn't done him any good, so if logic follows having less rest will be even worse for him. A dead arm is entirely possible, he's pitched quite a bit of innings this season and last. But, assuming this is just a bump, why would starting him with three days rest especially after he's struggled his last two starts falling even to see the third inning in the latter appearance make things better all of a sudden? It might cause him to fall even farther down into a tailspin. If 100% Vargas (assuming no info at this point is just a shelling and not an injury) can't get it done, why is 75-80% Vargas going to do better? 942163[/snapback] I advocate this because it's easier to go to a four man rotation than it is to pitch Beckett and Willis on short rest and schedule everyone else around him. Consistency goes a long way in baseball (at least if you believe all that the players whine about). I don't really look forward to a start by anyone other than Willis and Beckett at this point, but you might as well go all the way if you're going to make such a drastic change, at least at this point... EDIT: Plus, if Vargas is just being marked down as 'ineffective' regardless of rest, wouldn't it make sense to get an extra 3 starts out of Dontrelle and Beckett at the expense of an extra start or two from Vargas (with those off-days, we could even skip Vargas once).
September 13, 200521 yr Part of the reasoning behind a 4-man rotation is to have the pitchers be more consistent. It is speculated that pithers have better control on shorter rest. You'd have to be careful how deep they go into games, but hopefully the improved control will allow them to give the same amount of innings with as much or fewer pitchers than on 4 days rest. Also, don't be certain this wouldn't land Vargas in the bullpen. Last time this 4-man rotation idea was brought up it was partly to get Pavano a chance at 20 wins and to avoid pitching Kensing even after we had lost your chance at the postseason in 2004. I think the Royals, Pirates and Blue Jays tried this in the late 90s, all to various degrees of success. Many baseball men have confused the terms 4-man rotation with simply skipping the 5th starter when there's an off-day. For example, when a beat writer asked A.J. Burnett about Jack's 4-man idea, A.J. Burnett and Carl Pavano said that they had pitched too much this year on short rest (never once did they pitch on 3 days rest, but were pushed ahead of a struggling or injured guy in the rotation at times) and refused to risk it. It's a whole other beast. One that will not take hold without the full support from the managers, coaches and pitchers of the team that attempts it over a long period of time.
September 13, 200521 yr Author Part of the reasoning behind a 4-man rotation is to ahve the pitchers be more consistent. It is speculated that pithers have better control on shorter rest. You'd have to be careful how deep they go into games, but hopefully the improved control will allow them to give the same amount of innings with as much or fewer pitchers than on 4 days rest. Also, don't be certain this wouldn't land Vargas in the bullpen. Last time this 4-0man rotation idea was brought up partly to get Pavano a chance at 20 wins and to avoid pitching Kensing even after we had lost your chance at the postseason in 2004. I think the Royals, Pirates and Blue Jays tried this in the late 90s, all to various degrees of success. Many baseball men have confused the terms 4-man rotation with simply skipping the 5th starter when there's an off-day. For example, when a beat writer asked A.J. Burnett about Jack's 4-man idea, A.J. Burnett and Carl Pavano said that they had pitched too much this year on short rest (never once did they pitch on 3 days rest, but were pushed ahead of a struggling or injured guy in the rotation at times) and refused to risk it. It's a whole other beast. One that will take take hold without the full support from the managers, coaches and pitchers of the team that attempts it over a long period of time. 942380[/snapback] Good write up and interesting as well. I can understand the point in there. It might be interesting to see what happens. :thumbup But, my belief still is the more times I get beckett, burnett and specially D-train up there pitching the better chance it is to win. If Valdez/Johnson/Moehler/Vargas ends up being the 4th or a combination I am all for it. Plus we do have some days off coming as well. :cool
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