Someone noted the glaring dropoff in Jason's recent starts a while back which told the story pretty well.

 

He's been in a slide for 6 or 7 starts in a row now.

 

3 starts this season, two were awful and the third wasn't much better.

 

 

Is it just the walks? Hate to say it, but he hasn't been much better than Moehler thus far.

 

Pitch counts are sky-high, he's lasted 5, 6, and 4 innings thus far. :confused

His mechanics are off. They did something to mess with them. He needs to get his pitches down. That's why they're hitting jacks off him.

He has looked like Al Leiter of 2005 so far

 

Hopefully he can fix whatever is wrong with his mechanics. How many starts do you think he has before he gets yanked from the rotation? I'd almost send him to the bullpen now to work on whatever is wrong.

His stuff is average and his control is what he needs to be successful. It's not surprising that when his mechanics aren't flawless he gets shelled. He's lucky he's been the beneficiary of two offensive explosions, if not his record would be 0-3 instead of 2-1.

yeah the ball is lifting too much and he has to be able to keep it down and work it away like he does so well. its something that Kranny should look at even more after this start.

He's having major control problems right now. He is walking batters out the ass and leaving stuff up in the zone. It's not like he's making the pitches and getting knocked around.

 

I don't know what the club should do with him. Do you send him to AAA to work on the control issues or do you leave him in the big leagues so Kranitz can work on him?

He has looked like Al Leiter of 2005 so far

 

Hopefully he can fix whatever is wrong with his mechanics. How many starts do you think he has before he gets yanked from the rotation? I'd almost send him to the bullpen now to work on whatever is wrong.

 

i imagine he'll stay in the rotation for a while to work out his problems..

He's having major control problems right now. He is walking batters out the ass and leaving stuff up in the zone. It's not like he's making the pitches and getting knocked around.

 

I don't know what the club should do with him. Do you send him to AAA to work on the control issues or do you leave him in the big leagues so Kranitz can work on him?

 

 

Leave him in the big leagues and work on his mechanics. He's 23, he's had success at the big league level, and he's struggling over an extended period for the first time. He needs to work through these issues at the big league level. If he goes back down to the minors he's going to pitch well and then when he comes back up he's going to get hit around again. Vargas needs to make his adjustments up here, not down there.

Happens with young pitchers often.

 

 

Vargas needs to rediscover whatever it is he had when he first burst onto the scene.

 

 

We are learning why he is most likely not a vital piece of our future rotation. However, it would be nice if he gets that control corrected as he could be quite useful in the bullpen long term.

i think big b moe gets a bad rap because as you said Hotcorner Vargas has been no better than big b moe. Yet people rip the shreads out of big b moe, granted he doesn't have good stuff and he is old when we are a rebuilding team. However, i don't understand why this happens, last yeaqr and so far this year everytime big b moe pitches we sit some of our better starters, everytime. now if he isn't our best pitcher wouldn't you want to put your best players out on the field to give him run support? That is why moehler doesnt have a win and Vargas is 2-1 when both have pitched terribly.

 

Remember we think of Vargas as a veteran even though he doesn't even have something like 35 pro starts(minor leagues included....i might be wrong here) but he is still young...and plus his stuff isnt great.

Wasn't there a kid we brought up in 2003 who had control issues at the end of his rookie season and into his sophomore year? He's worked that out pretty well, for the most part.

 

I think Vargas will come around, he shot through the system so fast this is really the first time he's struggled as a professional, it was bound to happen. I think he's the type of guy that will be able to bounce back from it.

Wasn't there a kid we brought up in 2003 who had control issues at the end of his rookie season and into his sophomore year? He's worked that out pretty well, for the most part.

 

I think Vargas will come around, he shot through the system so fast this is really the first time he's struggled as a professional, it was bound to happen. I think he's the type of guy that will be able to bounce back from it.

 

 

I hope so, and as opposed to Moehler I would think they'll let him work it out in the rotation. It's a good point you make F_F, that Vargas is still very young & flew through the system. The little bit of success he had last season makes me expect more from him, and that's probably inappropriate. He should be on the same expectation level as Olsen, Mitre, Johnson, any of our other first-year starters, and be allowed to work through some difficulties. (I wouldn't want to send him down at any rate, just worried about the trend lately...)

i think big b moe gets a bad rap because as you said Hotcorner Vargas has been no better than big b moe. Yet people rip the shreads out of big b moe, granted he doesn't have good stuff and he is old when we are a rebuilding team. However, i don't understand why this happens, last yeaqr and so far this year everytime big b moe pitches we sit some of our better starters, everytime. now if he isn't our best pitcher wouldn't you want to put your best players out on the field to give him run support? That is why moehler doesnt have a win and Vargas is 2-1 when both have pitched terribly.

 

Remember we think of Vargas as a veteran even though he doesn't even have something like 35 pro starts(minor leagues included....i might be wrong here) but he is still young...and plus his stuff isnt great.

Huh?

 

First off, we don't sit our stars when Moehler starts. Yesterday the only regular batter that didn't play was Jacobs, and that's because Wes Helms has great stats against Claussen. Which, btw, he went 2-4 against him.

 

Secondly, how could you even compare Vargas and Moehler? Vargas is a young lefty who has solid control most of the time and hasn't even been in the Majors for a full season. Moehler is a never has been who does not have good stuff, has meh control, isn't aware of the fact that his fastball travels a few ticks less than average, and to add to all that he's taking the rotation spot of a deserving pitcher like Ricky Nolasco or Jason Johnson, among others.

 

The reason Brian Moehler doesn't have a win is because he has a double digit ERA, not because the offense hasn't come through for him. What do you want, 17 runs everytime he starts?

 

Wasn't there a kid we brought up in 2003 who had control issues at the end of his rookie season and into his sophomore year? He's worked that out pretty well, for the most part.

 

I think Vargas will come around, he shot through the system so fast this is really the first time he's struggled as a professional, it was bound to happen. I think he's the type of guy that will be able to bounce back from it.

I could see the comparison, but there's one huge difference. Dontrelle struggled because he was a two pitch pitcher who needed to refine his change. He did that, and he now has three legit major league pitches which he can use at any point in the count at will. Hence the success.

 

Vargas on the other hand doesn't have the pinpoint control that Dontrelle has more often than not, and has to rely on keeping hitters off balance. Also, Vargas already has a change - his issue really is that he doesn't have the confidence/balls to use his curve more often. Hitters can guess what's coming, and when it's not dancing all over the place and isn't hitting its exact spots that turns him into a batting practice machine. Not saying it can't be done, but it'll be tough.

Vargas should be in the same boat everyone else his. His success last year was nice but limited, and doesn't neccesarily indicate that he is going to be a consitent starter. His lack of quality pitches has always concerned me, and when his control is on he is very easy to figure out. Dontrelle is much different than Vargas, he has a unique style and usually misses down in the strike zone or away, not up where he is hittable. If he doesn't show a huge improvement by mid-season, we'll need to give somebody else a shot.

I still think Vargas will be ok. He can always hit himself if he needs run support.

 

I'm more worried about Moehler and Mitre being in our rotation with Vargas being 3rd. I believe that Mitre is overachieving a bit. I always saw Mitre as a long relief pitcher- not starter.

Wasn't there a kid we brought up in 2003 who had control issues at the end of his rookie season and into his sophomore year? He's worked that out pretty well, for the most part.

 

I think Vargas will come around, he shot through the system so fast this is really the first time he's struggled as a professional, it was bound to happen. I think he's the type of guy that will be able to bounce back from it.

 

 

 

gotta agree with what he says

He has looked like Al Leiter of 2005 so far

 

Hopefully he can fix whatever is wrong with his mechanics. How many starts do you think he has before he gets yanked from the rotation? I'd almost send him to the bullpen now to work on whatever is wrong.

 

Why is everyone comparing any struggleing pitcher to the 2005 Al Leiter :mad

I still think Vargas will be ok. He can always hit himself if he needs run support.

 

I'm more worried about Moehler and Mitre being in our rotation with Vargas being 3rd. I believe that Mitre is overachieving a bit. I always saw Mitre as a long relief pitcher- not starter.

 

 

 

I think Mitre can at least give us a good number of quality starts even if he is not gonna be an allstar. I'm less worried about him than Vargas or Moehler even though I have seen him go through rough streches in Chicago.

I could see the comparison, but there's one huge difference. Dontrelle struggled because he was a two pitch pitcher who needed to refine his change. He did that, and he now has three legit major league pitches which he can use at any point in the count at will. Hence the success.

 

Vargas on the other hand doesn't have the pinpoint control that Dontrelle has more often than not, and has to rely on keeping hitters off balance. Also, Vargas already has a change - his issue really is that he doesn't have the confidence/balls to use his curve more often. Hitters can guess what's coming, and when it's not dancing all over the place and isn't hitting its exact spots that turns him into a batting practice machine. Not saying it can't be done, but it'll be tough.

 

While having only 2 pitches certainly was part of the problem for Dontrelle, but control was also an issue. If you remember one of the big issues for Dontrelle in 2004 was that he wasn't able to go deep into games, and a lot of that had to do with pitch count. It's no coincidence that Dontrelle's BB/9 went down almost 1 walk per 9 in 2005 from his average in 2003/2004.

 

Whether this is relevant in the case of Vargas, well I don't know, but I'm just saying let's not get too worked up about his recent struggles.