I was looking at where we were in the standings when Beinfest made previous July trades:

 

'02 - 45-43 and 6.5 games out of the WC in 5th place - Beinfest sold

'03 - 47-45 and 4.5 games out of the WC in 6th place - Beinfest bought

'04 - 52-51 and 5.0 games out of the WC in 5th place - Beinfest reshuffled

'05 - 53-48 and 3.5 games out of the WC in 4th place - Beinfest did nothing (*)

 

Right now we're 41-50 and 7.0 games out in 10th place.

 

The question is: How close do we need to get for Beinfest to be a buyer?

 

(*) Villone = journeyman middle reliever = nothing

according to that, 4.5 games

beinfest has said on the radio he doesnt think this year's team is a WC team.

Could still make a move to benifit next years team tho. Still nothing major tho, unless the market for relievers really has gone insane and we can get a hefty return for Borowski.

It's not really how far back, but how many teams we have to leap-frog.

 

For me, any more than 4 teams to leapfrog is just unlikely.

 

At this point, I think the team stands pat and moves Borowski only in the event of an incredible offer, since the stability (and sanity) he provides in the bullpen is invaluable to the young starters' psyche.

I've said this before, so apologies upfront for repeating myself but, acknowledging Beinfest is probably right about our wildcard chances (whether we're 4.5 or 7 games back), the most important thing this team can do this season is learn how to win (and good teams find ways to win), and to that end any trade he makes should be made with learning that lesson in mind.

 

For young teams, as we know from watching the Fish 2000-2003, that was the hardest lesson of that crop of players to learn.

 

If somehow this team can walk off the field after their last game in September at or above .500 it's the physchological equivalent of winning the world series, not to mention guaranteeing Joe Girardi Manager of the Year.

 

Nonetheless, I'm still scoreboard watching.

We aren't really buyers but...

 

I expect Helms, Herges, and Borowski to be gone and I expect to get a good young CFer (whether it be Crawford, Gathright, Taveras, etc...).

 

We will get some sort of CFer....I bet Gathright's price is pretty low right now. haha

We aren't really buyers but...

 

I expect Helms, Herges, and Borowski to be gone and I expect to get a good young CFer (whether it be Crawford, Gathright, Taveras, etc...).

 

We will get some sort of CFer....I bet Gathright's price is pretty low right now. haha

 

 

You are aware that the Royals traded for Gathright, correct?

To answer my own question I think if we're 5 game out Beinfest sells. The only way we become buyers is if we get to within 3 games and that's not likely to happen. I hope at least we play well enough the next couple of weeks so that Beinfest has a few sleepless nights over to buy or not to buy.

I think Beinfest will try and i get an extra outfielder because he once metioned we have enough pitching which can get us what ever else they needed.

To answer my own question I think if we're 5 game out Beinfest sells. The only way we become buyers is if we get to within 3 games and that's not likely to happen. I hope at least we play well enough the next couple of weeks so that Beinfest has a few sleepless nights over to buy or not to buy.

 

When you say "sell" I assume you mean moving a Borowski, maybe Herges, etc. Or do you mean (excluding Cabs/Willis) trading existing starters or starting pitchers for more prospects?

 

Personally I don't see trading Borowski as "selling". Wonder if you or others agree?

To answer my own question I think if we're 5 game out Beinfest sells. The only way we become buyers is if we get to within 3 games and that's not likely to happen. I hope at least we play well enough the next couple of weeks so that Beinfest has a few sleepless nights over to buy or not to buy.

 

When you say "sell" I assume you mean moving a Borowski, maybe Herges, etc. Or do you mean (excluding Cabs/Willis) trading existing starters or starting pitchers for more prospects?

 

Personally I don't see trading Borowski as "selling". Wonder if you or others agree?

To me trading Borowski or Herges or Helms for prospects would be selling.

dont mind trading away any of the 3 as long as it can bring us a good enough CF that can get on base and cover some ground.

I'd give up herges and helms for some decent enough CF, but not Borowski. He's done a pretty good job as a closer, and if he leaves, who knows if the other guys will be able to fill in. That said, i think that Kensing has a very good closer make up, so we will see next season what his role will be. For now, lets just get us a CF!

 

PS. If the CF that we could get would become the CF of the future, then i'd trade all of them, but with prospects one is never too sure.

no way guys cmon if we are going to have any chance at all we need borowski and helms and u know wat i wouldnt mind resigning helms if he can bring wat he has done this year to next years team as he is an excellent backup but i bet we could trade herges and a minor leaguer for a good center fielder

I'd give up herges and helms for some decent enough CF, but not Borowski. He's done a pretty good job as a closer, and if he leaves, who knows if the other guys will be able to fill in. That said, i think that Kensing has a very good closer make up, so we will see next season what his role will be. For now, lets just get us a CF!

 

PS. If the CF that we could get would become the CF of the future, then i'd trade all of them, but with prospects one is never too sure.

 

First of all, we aren't contending. If we finish above 4th in the NL East and win over 70 games, that is going to be awesome.

 

Second, you aren't getting a decent CF for Herges, Helms, or Borowski. You would get another team's B-C level prospects, like a Pinto or Stokes or J. Delgado, that offer some potential but come with question marks. We will get complimentary players more then likely, not core pieces. And really, who cares about Borowski. He won't bring us a decent draft pick at the end of the year (please correct me if I'm wrong), and regardless of the RP market because of the Reds trade, we won't be getting anything near Kearns/F. Lopez back. Those relievers Washington traded are pretty young, Borowski is not.

 

We need to trade one of the rotation rookies Olsen/Johnson/Nolasco/Anibal or dip into West/Gaby/Thompson/Volstad/J. Garcia, if we want to get a real CF. That's just how it's going to be. It will happen eventually considering (1) we have no real CFs at any level in the minors and (2) we won't be spending money in free agency. It's just a matter of who and when (and Petit and Vargas are not getting a good one right now). Concerning WHO and WHEN, today quoted.

 

The Diamondbacks continue to search for a starting pitcher, maybe two. But any trades will be difficult by the July 31 deadline, given the likelihood that the team would have to part with a few of its top minor league prospects. -- Arizona Republic

 

Perfect match across the board. It won't be difficult for them if they are getting a young starter back. You have to trade value to get an impact player.

Olsen/Johnson/Sanchez should be off limits. Volstad, West, and Thompson for now too.

 

Petit, Pinto, Hernandez...offer all 3 of them, and Borowski, to get what you need. A CF and a C, the two biggest concerns of the team.

 

If a GM asks for JJ, Scotty O, or Annie, they should be promptly hung up on.

Trading off excess parts like Helms and Borowski is more reshuffling than anything. You aren't changing your plan. And you aren't taking a giant step towards accomplishing whatever your goal might be.

Olsen/Johnson/Sanchez should be off limits. Volstad, West, and Thompson for now too.

 

Petit, Pinto, Hernandez...offer all 3 of them, and Borowski, to get what you need. A CF and a C, the two biggest concerns of the team.

 

If a GM asks for JJ, Scotty O, or Annie, they should be promptly hung up on.

 

You can't trade crap for impact players. We are not going to be blessed with a highway robbery scenario, which trading those players would entail. It's very simple. The choice is VERY easy.

 

Chris Young (CF), all our minor league pitching depth, and all the rotation rookies except one of JJ/Anibal/Nolasco (I deem Olsen off limits because he's the lefty).

 

or

 

Reggie Abercrombie, all our minor league pitching depth, and all our rotation rookies

 

Like I said earlier, it's just a matter of who and when. We should run to trade West or Thompson or Volstad for a CF like Chris Young. Arizona would laugh in our face at such a weak offer as they can't immediatly stick them into their rotation. Petit, Vargas, Pinto, and probably Nolasco won't get it done. Olsen, JJ, and Anibal would though, and the later two is a great trade for us (as aformentioned, keep the lefty). I'd offer JJ straight up as I think Anibal will be better longterm, and that will be a very hard trade for them to pass up. We would be getting more then good value back with Young.

 

The consequences of the trade would be drastically improving our offense and defense in the short and long term, and hurting our rotation for the remainder of 2006. Which does not matter in the scheme of things, because our rotation would not be effected longterm because of our insane young SP depth that is developing. It's a total win across the board. Take off the blinders.

 

Trading off excess parts like Helms and Borowski is more reshuffling than anything. You aren't changing your plan. And you aren't taking a giant step towards accomplishing whatever your goal might be.

 

One of the few occasions we agree, and precisely why we have to dip into the young arms to fix the only position on the field we have production issues with.

Olsen/Johnson/Sanchez should be off limits. Volstad, West, and Thompson for now too.

 

Petit, Pinto, Hernandez...offer all 3 of them, and Borowski, to get what you need. A CF and a C, the two biggest concerns of the team.

 

If a GM asks for JJ, Scotty O, or Annie, they should be promptly hung up on.

 

 

I really dont understand why Willis isnt off limits as well.... since well hes the best pitcher on our squad.

 

And I really dont understand why Volstad, West and Thompson should be off limits since they arent that close and well we dont really need them since we basically have the rotation set up for a long time.

 

I say Deal Borrowski and Herges even though Herges we arent going to get anything for and start the new guys and hopefully make a deal for a CFer. Hopefully someone that has some pop.

 

I think with the amount of pitching prospects in our organization and the abundance of OFers in the minors that something could be accomplished.

Olsen/Johnson/Sanchez should be off limits. Volstad, West, and Thompson for now too.

 

Petit, Pinto, Hernandez...offer all 3 of them, and Borowski, to get what you need. A CF and a C, the two biggest concerns of the team.

 

If a GM asks for JJ, Scotty O, or Annie, they should be promptly hung up on.

 

what about nolasco? :confused

 

and Mitre, don't YOU think we could get something for him :mischief

If the asking price for Chris Young include JJ, Olsen, or Sanchez, then the we should not go after Chris Young.

 

Our pitchers arent proven but are getting the job done in MLB.

 

Chris Young hasnt been to MLB yet and is hitting .264 in a hitters league. He isn't worth any of those 3 IMO. If Petit, Gaby H and/or Pinto arent enough, oh well.

 

We will find someone else.

 

As for Willis, him being untouchable goes without saying.

 

I like Nolasco, dont want him to be dealt but if he is oh well.

 

We'd be lucky to get a utility man in low A ball for Mitre.

and Mitre, don't YOU think we could get something for him :mischief

 

Since Mitre won't be back from the DL until after the non-waiver trading deadline, and you can't trade a palyer on the DL, the chances of his winding up elsewhere is fairly remote.

 

After August 1st, for the month players may still be traded by have to clear waivers. That means for example (only) the Mets were interested in him, every other team between the Marlins and the Mets in the standings would have to pass on him before the trade could be consummated. For example Cincy or the Braves, both who might want pitching, could claim him, forcing the Fish to pull his name from the waiver wire.

I still would love to go after Hunter Pence over Chris Young.... but either those two or Matt Kemp would be just fine with me

 

and besides, Hunter Pence and I were born on the same day/year :mischief

Olsen/Johnson/Sanchez should be off limits. Volstad, West, and Thompson for now too.

 

Petit, Pinto, Hernandez...offer all 3 of them, and Borowski, to get what you need. A CF and a C, the two biggest concerns of the team.

 

If a GM asks for JJ, Scotty O, or Annie, they should be promptly hung up on.

 

You can't trade crap for impact players. We are not going to be blessed with a highway robbery scenario, which trading those players would entail. It's very simple. The choice is VERY easy.

 

Chris Young (CF), all our minor league pitching depth, and all the rotation rookies except one of JJ/Anibal/Nolasco (I deem Olsen off limits because he's the lefty).

 

or

 

Reggie Abercrombie, all our minor league pitching depth, and all our rotation rookies

 

Like I said earlier, it's just a matter of who and when. We should run to trade West or Thompson or Volstad for a CF like Chris Young. Arizona would laugh in our face at such a weak offer as they can't immediatly stick them into their rotation. Petit, Vargas, Pinto, and probably Nolasco won't get it done. Olsen, JJ, and Anibal would though, and the later two is a great trade for us (as aformentioned, keep the lefty). I'd offer JJ straight up as I think Anibal will be better longterm, and that will be a very hard trade for them to pass up. We would be getting more then good value back with Young.

 

The consequences of the trade would be drastically improving our offense and defense in the short and long term, and hurting our rotation for the remainder of 2006. Which does not matter in the scheme of things, because our rotation would not be effected longterm because of our insane young SP depth that is developing. It's a total win across the board. Take off the blinders.

 

Trading off excess parts like Helms and Borowski is more reshuffling than anything. You aren't changing your plan. And you aren't taking a giant step towards accomplishing whatever your goal might be.

 

One of the few occasions we agree, and precisely why we have to dip into the young arms to fix the only position on the field we have production issues with.

 

 

I love young and I love your ideas there but I really think you are still over-rating them. I agree with you about olsen being off limits. But I think JJ shouldnt be made available either. But if we could slip nolasco + a west or Volstad I might have to consider that quickly.

 

I would love to get my hands on one of their CF or OF prospects. Quentin, Young, Upton (slim to no chance), any of them even Gonzo kid they have.

 

But they need to make a run before I think they would consider it else I see them selling off Green and pulling up young/quentin.

 

I still would love to go after Hunter Pence over Chris Young.... but either those two or Matt Kemp would be just fine with me

 

and besides, Hunter Pence and I were born on the same day/year :mischief

 

 

 

What about Either instead of Kemp? Do you think Kemp will learn to his breaking stuff well in the future?