October 10, 200718 yr Bonds and Willingham were both kind of...awful...in LF last year. Bonds was only slightly less awful, but putting him in LF and Hammer at 1B isnt a defensive upgrade, especially since they are essentially equal in LF defensively, although Hammer very well could improve. And did De Aza and Olivo get on base enough to use their speed? They were both terrible at the plate, so condemning them for not stealing bases and whatnot is kind of ludicrous since they rarely reached 1B anyway.
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton.
October 10, 200718 yr this isnt a greater/less than discussion...this is about one barry lamar bonds who has neither speed, nor defense anymore...and when those are taken completely out of the equation, then i dont want that player...period So since Barry has neither speed nor defense, you don't care about his OPS. Ergo speed + defense > OPS? no, i dont...not in the least bit...because the OPS of a player who has no desire to play for the marlins is completely irrelevant to me...does that satisfy your question? or should i point out how he will be a DH next year for an american league team...or maybe...just maybe...we can talk about players who might actually help our team... So... Speed + defense > OPS Because in both the AL and NL in 2007, the top two teams in terms of team OPS made the playoffs. That can't be said for the top two teams in both leagues in terms of fielding percentage. you forgot about the importance of speed in your argument...but let me ask you this, does having a piss poor defensive team give you a better or worse shot at making the playoffs? so like i was saying having BARRY BONDS, DOES NOT MAKE US A BETTER TEAM...believe it or not swifty, there is more to baseball than just offense Like speed? other than hanley...we have a huge gap in anyone that can run, we had 137 errors which lead the league by far, our pitching was worst or 2nd worst in all major categories....................................................and yet you want to add to our offense? add to our strength? see this is like your argument of why the fins should trade ronnie brown so they can get the next golden god in mcfadden...but here is the thing...adding to strengths while ignoring completely your weaknesses makes you brian cashman...and last time i checked...the marlins dont have his pockets from which to pull from...so...oh i dont know...just an idea...why dont we get a couple guys who are a little more fleet of foot, find a good, capable catcher...add to the pitching a little...and we can call it a good offseason without slow, geezers, with creaky knees and bad attitudes...i swear, next your going to tell me the marlins should go after johnny bench to catch and willie mays in center...hey they had good OPS numbers too! and they would bring in more of a crowd! So much here, where to start. Hermida, Uggla, De Aza, Olivo, Ross, and Hanley all had above average speed last season. Just because they didn't steal bases doesn't mean they are slow. Picking up a pitcher doesn't really work in our favor, as we've got so many guys who will be available next year or the year after. There is no single pitcher who will take a one year contract for what Bonds is making that will have as big an impact. Bonds > Willingham in left. Putting Bonds at LF and WIllingham at 1B arguably improves our defense. What pitchers should we add? Who is out there that will perform better than what we have that won't cost an arm and a leg. Pitching is expensive. If you can give me a list of the pitchers we should be getting this year maybe you'll convince me. i agree with you that hermida, ross and uggla have above average speed...but there is good enough reason to believe that olivo and de aza either wont be back or will have much more limited playing time this upcoming year...but we need to steal more bases and have the ability to manufacture runs rather than just waiting for the long ball....we sucked at situational baseball and that needs to improve with adding speed and defense within the organization secondly, you never have enough pitching...never, ever, ever...and while i dont have any names off the top of my head...im sure there are some more young pitchers within reach for the right deal and some vets who could provide some leadership...again...with pitching...more is more even if you dont think you have the spots for them currently of course bonds is better than willingham in left...hell a monkey with a glove is better in left than josh...so saying bonds is a defensive upgade isnt saying much...but ol creaky knees bonds would be much better suited to playing 1st base or DH than taking the outfield again
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong...
October 10, 200718 yr I keep half expecting this thread will implode under it's own weight because Bonds aside, people will come realize they are operating under a false premise, one I pointed out above. The reason "no one better is available" is not because no one WILL be available, but rather MLB rules don't allow players to be available at this moment. This thread also ignores the possibility of trading for and using this mystery money to pay a player already under contract elsewhere who might be a free agent at the end of 2008 or similar scenario where his existing team knows he's going to walk regardless and opts to take prospect talent now instead of waiting for a draft pick. Look, I understand, if we all waited for the local media to give us something to chew on regarding the Marlins we'd all be starving to death, and I suppose this is the best available subject out there, but when various people build their arguments on the notion there's no one out there better, it may be true, but for the wrong reason. Free agents aren't even free agents yet. As for Bonds, I'm not particularly enamored with the idea of him playing here because, rightly or wrongly, I think he's well past his prime and in decline, and not because of anything he may or may not have done. Frankly I could care less and think he and Sosa and McGuire all ought to be in the Hall of Fame. In fact I rather like the guy and his "go f*ck yourself" attitude and if anyone has earned the right to cop an attitude it's him, he truly is one the greatest ballplayers to ever play the game. 21 years at the major league level with his numbers says it all. I could point out a number of players who are in their last "cheap" year before their contracts escalate significantly or their 2008 to 2009 arbitration will go through the roof ala Miggy, but to what end? Until teams start making their thoughts known about players under their control, it's fruitless to speculate or to suggest Bonds is the best because no one else is better. The one thing I agree with the most in the pro Bonds argument is actually something Swift said, which was the Marlins could potentially bring in more road revenue with him than without him. I think that's very astute and while I'm not sure I agree he'd put a lot more fannies in the seats locally because I'm in the camp that says the casual fan is fed up the Dolphin Stadium summertime experience (not the team), net net he'll definitely bring in more revenue than if Josh Willingham is our starting leftfielder next season..
October 10, 200718 yr 2003, you talk as if you think everyone here is an idiot. We all know the rules that there are no free agents out there as of this very moment. We also know that it won't matter who becomes a free agent because there will be no one better on a 1 year deal than Barry Bonds. Those other players either won't take a 1 year deal or play a position in which we already have a stud. Take any prospective free agent out there. Barry Bonds is a better fit than any one of them (in terms of 1 year deals, attendance, legitimacy)
October 10, 200718 yr 2003, you talk as if you think everyone here is an idiot. We all know the rules that there are no free agents out there as of this very moment. We also know that it won't matter who becomes a free agent because there will be no one better on a 1 year deal than Barry Bonds. Those other players either won't take a 1 year deal or play a position in which we already have a stud. Take any prospective free agent out there. Barry Bonds is a better fit than any one of them (in terms of 1 year deals, attendance, legitimacy) Please don't put words in my mouth Ramp. Besides you missed the whole point that potentially available players don;t have to be free agents. I didn't say that, I didn't mean that and I have no idea why you'd post that. I was just making a point about players not being available yet. Sheesh. :banghead
October 10, 200718 yr im curious as why anyone really thinks bonds would actually want to play for us? maybe id do some bonds knob slobbing like others here if someone could convince me as to why barry would be convinced to be in teal
October 10, 200718 yr im curious as why anyone really thinks bonds would actually want to play for us? maybe id do some bonds knob slobbing like others here if someone could convince me as to why barry would be convinced to be in teal We aren't in the AL, Loria likes him, he wouldn't have to deal with the bulls*** media. I don't see why, if we offer him the money, he wouldn't come here.
October 10, 200718 yr im curious as why anyone really thinks bonds would actually want to play for us? maybe id do some bonds knob slobbing like others here if someone could convince me as to why barry would be convinced to be in teal We aren't in the AL, Loria likes him, he wouldn't have to deal with the bulls*** media. I don't see why, if we offer him the money, he wouldn't come here. We also offered him twice before in franchise history. Until a last minute reconsideration, he was going to be our 1997 left-fielder. So he's shown he'd consider playing here and Loria has shown he'd allow it, or down right facilitate it.
October 10, 200718 yr 2003, you talk as if you think everyone here is an idiot. We all know the rules that there are no free agents out there as of this very moment. We also know that it won't matter who becomes a free agent because there will be no one better on a 1 year deal than Barry Bonds. Those other players either won't take a 1 year deal or play a position in which we already have a stud. Take any prospective free agent out there. Barry Bonds is a better fit than any one of them (in terms of 1 year deals, attendance, legitimacy) Please don't put words in my mouth Ramp. Besides you missed the whole point that potentially available players don;t have to be free agents. I didn't say that, I didn't mean that and I have no idea why you'd post that. I was just making a point about players not being available yet. Sheesh. :banghead I didn't say you said we were idiots. But you have made your post about there not being any free agents yet, or potential trade players twice already. Therefore I assumed that you believed we cannot read or saw what you read and didn't understand any of it. So I believed you think we are idiots. If you wouldn't have posted it twice, I wouldn't have assumed so. I didn't miss any point that there could be tradeable players out there. Still for the 1 year deal, for attendance, and for legitimacy no one tops the acquisition of Barry Bonds.
October 10, 200718 yr Frankly I doubt a lot of people jumping into this thread feel like reading through 156 posts to get caught up but I hope you aren't saying no one but me has posted the same thought more than once because this thread is filled with the same people repeating the same things over and over. Including you.
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong... He's the worst defensive corner OF in baseball, and has been for the past 10 years or so. Literally.
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong... He's the worst defensive corner OF in baseball, and has been for the past 10 years or so. Literally. If there was ever a candidate for a DH, its Manny.
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong... He's the worst defensive corner OF in baseball, and has been for the past 10 years or so. Literally. i know bonds is....this is what ive been saying :mischief
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong... He's the worst defensive corner OF in baseball, and has been for the past 10 years or so. Literally. If there was ever a candidate for a DH, its Manny. watch more red sox games...he isnt that bad...willingham makes manny look willie mays
October 10, 200718 yr BS Willingham isn't half as bad as some of you make him out to be. The leaps and bounds he made this year from 2006 were enormous.
October 10, 200718 yr manny isnt on the wrong side of 40 and still plays pretty solid defense for all the sh*t he gets...id take manny in less than a second...but id rather add to our speed and defense and be a much more complete team... Manny Ramirez is horrible defensively. HORRIBLE. He has never played pretty solid defense, which would be a precursor to STILL playing pretty solid defense. But please, cite all his assists and try and make an argument he's good based off the fact he can plod to balls that fall off the monster. He's flat out TERRIBLE. This isn't arguable. This is factual by every scout, gm, anyone, who has every watched him play baseball. Even Joe Morgan could drill this point. JOE MORGAN! I'll take Manny. You can have Posednik and Kenny Lofton. i watch the red sox everynight living here in mass...and i know what i see and other than occasional lapses in the field(diving to catch the cutoff throw), he plays the ball very well off the monster and does have alot of assists...what more do you want? so your hunch is completely wrong... He's the worst defensive corner OF in baseball, and has been for the past 10 years or so. Literally. If there was ever a candidate for a DH, its Manny. watch more red sox games...he isnt that bad...willingham makes manny look willie mays :lol
October 10, 200718 yr Some people here act like we had some superb defensive team this past year and brining on Bonds would sabotage that. Fact is our defense sucked, our pitching sucked. Brining in Bonds would only be an upgrade from last years team overall and anybody who can put their jaded views from hatred aside could see that easily.
October 10, 200718 yr BS Willingham isn't half as bad as some of you make him out to be. The leaps and bounds he made this year from 2006 were enormous. Agreed. Willingham made some really nice catches this year. Let's not forget he also had back spasms that might have limited his range, just a thought. His defense improved a lot this year compared to last year. Also, glad to be posting for the first time! WOOT!
October 10, 200718 yr He is better than last year. He was also the second worst LFer last year, only ahead of Manny, and maybe Burrell. So it's not like he had to do much to have an improved year.
October 10, 200718 yr He is better than last year. He was also the second worst LFer last year, only ahead of Manny, and maybe Burrell. So it's not like he had to do much to have an improved year. no, he still had to do alot to improve to even decent and Hammer is a better OFer than Adam Dunn... so that makes him 3rd or 4th worst!
October 10, 200718 yr Some people here act like we had some superb defensive team this past year and brining on Bonds would sabotage that. Fact is our defense sucked, our pitching sucked. Brining in Bonds would only be an upgrade from last years team overall and anybody who can put their jaded views from hatred aside could see that easily. Yeah, that's basically it. When you have a team as intrinsically flawed as ours, you pad a position of strength to the point that it becomes 'elite.' Bonds in this lineup gives us, almost without question, the best lineup in the NL. That's worth it.
October 10, 200718 yr He is better than last year. He was also the second worst LFer last year, only ahead of Manny, and maybe Burrell. So it's not like he had to do much to have an improved year. no, he still had to do alot to improve to even decent and Hammer is a better OFer than Adam Dunn... so that makes him 3rd or 4th worst! Oh, I don't think Hammer was THAT bad this year. I think he's more around 6th or 7th worst. IMO there's a pretty big difference between defense in the everyday LFers the past couple years. You have the good defenders, then you have the bad defenders. There really isn't any imbetween. Last year he was among the few worst, but this year Hammer is one of the better "bad" defenders, and Hammer also atleast has an arm. He still doesn't have much range, but he's atleast taking better routes to balls. I wasn't trying to harp on Hammer, my point was that Bonds is better defender, so there really isn't an arguement for his defense will hurt us, because he's, at worst, the same as Hammer.
October 11, 200718 yr Some people here act like we had some superb defensive team this past year and brining on Bonds would sabotage that. Fact is our defense sucked, our pitching sucked. Brining in Bonds would only be an upgrade from last years team overall and anybody who can put their jaded views from hatred aside could see that easily. Yeah, that's basically it. When you have a team as intrinsically flawed as ours, you pad a position of strength to the point that it becomes 'elite.' Bonds in this lineup gives us, almost without question, the best lineup in the NL. That's worth it. then we will only finish 4th! :thumbup :|
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