I was wondering if anyone else found it refreshing for the team to return to its small ball roots, at least for a game, Monday night? It's no secret that the new bunch of guys that came up in 06 are free-swinging mashers, and we live and die by the home run.

 

I remember a time when our teams were built to play in Dolphin Stadium; we had prototypical leadoff hitters like Carr, Quivilo and Pierre (not Hanley, who is better suited for 3-5) that had high OBP then would have no trouble swiping 2nd base; we had a slugger in Sheffield who had as good an eye as he did a bat and was always among the league leaders in walks (not among the league leaders in SO's like Dan and Hanley); and I remember a time when our hitters weren't affraid to go opposite field (anyone see the shift Tampa put on Dan in the later innings on Sunday? Aki was at SS and Bartlet was practically at third).

 

Don't get me wrong, I like this team as they're a good bunch of guys and they're fun to watch. However, they hit so many homeruns because the opposing pitchers aren't affraid to throw strikes; when there's a higher probability the batter's going to strike out our have long flyout then hit it out of the park (as seems to be the case the past month or so), there's no reason for the pitcher to nibble at the corners or pitch around in the count.

 

For those of you Sabremetrics nerds out there, you know that getting on base and advancing to scoring position provides a higher probability and contribution towards a win than hitting a home run because of the limited commodity of outs. Small ball is true baseball in my books, and the type of play the Marlins had until 06 it seems. Manufacturing runs as they did Monday night is the reason we have two Championship trophies residing at 2267 Dan Marino Blvd. Let's see if Freddi and Presley can steer them that way more often.

I was saying that for awhile now, i know everyone like to see homeruns, just check the game thread, and most of the posts are about who hit homeruns in the game.

For those of you Sabremetrics nerds out there, you know that getting on base and advancing to scoring position provides a higher probability and contribution towards a win than hitting a home run because of the limited commodity of outs. Small ball is true baseball in my books, and the type of play the Marlins had until 06 it seems. Manufacturing runs as they did Monday night is the reason we have two Championship trophies residing at 2267 Dan Marino Blvd. Let's see if Freddi and Presley can steer them that way more often.

 

It's one thing to mean "small ball" as in scoring runs via singles, doubles and such, it's another to say that sac bunts and stolen bases are responsible...

 

No Sabermetric "nerd" (which by the way is unnecessarily derogatory, thanks) will say that scoring runs by walking, singles, doubles is that much different than hitting the home run, as long as the end result isn't using outs.

 

Now, if we had an inning where Hanley leads off, gets sac bunted over, steals third and gets sac flied in... then yes, that is a relatively "weak" way of using "small ball" to score runs

 

However, knocking 6 singles in an inning is ALWAYS good

Sabermetricians have said that bunting and stealing actually cost teams runs through the course of the season.

Sabermetricians have said that bunting and stealing actually cost teams runs through the course of the season.

 

Bunting does regardless, stealing below a cetain quota (percentage and total, IIRC) does too, SBs can be productive at the right rate

 

but I know this, Im just saying that there is more than one definition of "small ball"

 

Small ball as in scoring w/o HRs

Small bal as in using bunts and SBs

I remember a time when our teams were built to play in Dolphin Stadium; we had prototypical leadoff hitters like Carr, Quivilo and Pierre (not Hanley, who is better suited for 3-5) that had high OBP

Carr never had a high OBP. Pierre's OBP was totally dependant on his batting average - if he slumped he went from a disruptive force to totally useless. Veras had a nice OBP - I thought he'd last longer in baseball than he did. I think we got rid of him because we had a better version of him coming up - Luis Castillo. We did manage to turn Veras into Cliff Floyd eventually.

 

For those of you Sabremetrics nerds out there, you know that getting on base and advancing to scoring position provides a higher probability and contribution towards a win than hitting a home run because of the limited commodity of outs. Small ball is true baseball in my books, and the type of play the Marlins had until 06 it seems. Manufacturing runs as they did Monday night is the reason we have two Championship trophies residing at 2267 Dan Marino Blvd. Let's see if Freddi and Presley can steer them that way more often.

If I remember right, small ball failed in 2002 and 2003. It wasn't until we got rid of Torborg and small ball in 2003 that we started to play well. We went from small ball to regular, balanced baseball - get guys on base and drive them in with extra base hits. I do agree that we've gone too far the other way in chasing home runs but we're scoring runs which is all that counts on offense so I can't complain much.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many runs we score or how we score them...just that we have more runs than the opposition...and whether it was Monday's small ball, or the more common long ball...overall we've done a pretty solid job of winning, and that's what counts...

Sabermetricians have said that bunting and stealing actually cost teams runs through the course of the season.

 

Sacrifice bunting depends on the circumstances, but speaking very generally a sacrifice bunt will have a negligible effect on the chances of scoring one run while at the same time reducing the chances of a big inning.

 

Stealing is productive over the course of a season if you can do it with a certain success rate (roughly 70%). In a one game situation it would, of course, depend on the circumstances.

Sabermetricians have said that bunting and stealing actually cost teams runs through the course of the season.

 

Bunting does regardless, stealing below a cetain quota (percentage and total, IIRC) does too, SBs can be productive at the right rate

 

but I know this, Im just saying that there is more than one definition of "small ball"

 

Small ball as in scoring w/o HRs

Small bal as in using bunts and SBs

 

Yeah I know. I wasn't directing it to your statement, but rather to the topic creator's. And I think I remember in Moneyball it said 70 % sucess rate. If par with 70% or above, then it correlates to runs, if below, it has a negative effect on runs.

Sabermetricians have said that bunting and stealing actually cost teams runs through the course of the season.

 

Bunting does regardless, stealing below a cetain quota (percentage and total, IIRC) does too, SBs can be productive at the right rate

 

but I know this, Im just saying that there is more than one definition of "small ball"

 

Small ball as in scoring w/o HRs

Small bal as in using bunts and SBs

 

Yeah I know. I wasn't directing it to your statement, but rather to the topic creator's. And I think I remember in Moneyball it said 70 % sucess rate. If par with 70% or above, then it correlates to runs, if below, it has a negative effect on runs.

No bunting please.

There are only two times I would ever want to see a sacrifice bunt.

 

A) When the pitcher is up with runners on

 

B) When they absolutely need a run to win the game, mostly in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

I really don't care how we get runs, as long as we get them and have more runs than the enemy.

 

Getting a single, a bunt, a stolen base, and a sac fly for a run is the same as hitting a 2-out homer. As long as we score more runs than the other team we'll be fine.

There are only two times I would ever want to see a sacrifice bunt.

 

A) When the pitcher is up

 

B) When they absolutely need a run to win the game, mostly in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

 

Same but for the latter, only to move the runner from second to third, run expectancy matrix ftw

There are only two times I would ever want to see a sacrifice bunt.

 

A) When the pitcher is up

 

B) When they absolutely need a run to win the game, mostly in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

 

Same but for the latter, only to move the runner from second to third, run expectancy matrix ftw

 

Ah, yes, but only if there is nobody out.

There are only two times I would ever want to see a sacrifice bunt.

 

A) When the pitcher is up

 

B) When they absolutely need a run to win the game, mostly in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings.

 

Same but for the latter, only to move the runner from second to third, run expectancy matrix ftw

 

Ah, yes, but only if there is nobody out.

 

touche

Marlins hitters need to get better at making adjustments to opposing pitchers. Its nothing really to do with small ball or long ball.

Marlins swing for the fences. It has gone through the entire lineup this year everyone is hitting home runs except (Hermida?!) while I do like Home Runs I prefer them in later innings when the game is on the line.

 

I do miss Pierre and Castillo as a 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup though, we will never again or not for a long time have that kind of talent and know it.

 

I would like to see better base running more steals and more speed, then again you can't really give a player more speed unless you add another player that already has speed, the Marlins lack it this year unfortunately. The singles and doubles that should drive in 2 only drive in 1, but thats Baseball almost every year is different.

 

You have to love it!

We need Dusty Bake here to show Uggla, Jacobs, Hammer, and Hanley how to put down the sac bunt.

Marlins swing for the fences. It has gone through the entire lineup this year everyone is hitting home runs except (Hermida?!) while I do like Home Runs I prefer them in later innings when the game is on the line.

 

I do miss Pierre and Castillo as a 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup though, we will never again or not for a long time have that kind of talent and know it.

 

I would like to see better base running more steals and more speed, then again you can't really give a player more speed unless you add another player that already has speed, the Marlins lack it this year unfortunately. The singles and doubles that should drive in 2 only drive in 1, but thats Baseball almost every year is different.

 

You have to love it!

I'm not going to get on the team for hitting a ton of homers until their pace slows down. With all these home runs, we are 4th in the league in runs scored. Until we aren't scoring via the HR, I have no problem with it.

 

Small ball is only right when it gives you more runs. The young, speedy Tampa Bay Rays are winning because of pitching, not "small ball". They are 9th out of 14 in the AL in runs scored.

I love the home runs, but I also miss seeing JP and Louie getting base hits on bunts and flying around the bases.

I love the home runs, but I also miss seeing JP and Louie getting base hits on bunts and flying around the bases.

 

I still miss Castillo ... still :tissue

I love the home runs, but I also miss seeing JP and Louie getting base hits on bunts and flying around the bases.

 

I still miss Castillo ... still :tissue

 

ME THREE

I love the home runs, but I also miss seeing JP and Louie getting base hits on bunts and flying around the bases.

 

I still miss Castillo ... still :tissue

 

I like to close my eyes and pretend he doesn't play for the Mutts. :tissue

I love the home runs, but I also miss seeing JP and Louie getting base hits on bunts and flying around the bases.

 

I still miss Castillo ... still :tissue

 

I like to close my eyes and pretend he doesn't play for the Mutts. :tissue

 

No one can have as much claim to him as the Marlins over the years though, he will always be remembered as a Marlin. I hope when he retires his jersey is retired at ... (The New Marlins Stadium)

 

btw does anyone know if the Marlins retired Conine's jersey?