I really find it hard to believe that so many people are ready to kick Jorge Cantu to the curb because we have Dallas McPherson waiting in the wings. McPherson might have had a great year in AAA-ball, but, that was in a hitter's park. A close look at his major league career tells you that he might have big problems if given the starting job at 3B for the Marlins. He is a .245 career hitter and that might be his ceiling as he has whiffed 126 times in 371 at bats so far. His career OBP is .298 which is pretty pathetic. If the Marlins move Cantu so that McPherson can start they are flat out fools. Cantu's defensive problems (22 errors) were negated by the fact that he hit .277 (.808 OPS) with 92 runs scored, 41 doubles, 29 homers and 95 RBIs in 2008.

I agree with the thread title

I really find it hard to believe that so many people are ready to kick Jorge Cantu to the curb because we have Dallas McPherson waiting in the wings. McPherson might have had a great year in AAA-ball, but, that was in a hitter's park. A close look at his major league career tells you that he might have big problems if given the starting job at 3B for the Marlins. He is a .245 career hitter and that might be his ceiling as he has whiffed 126 times in 371 at bats so far. His career OBP is .298 which is pretty pathetic. If the Marlins move Cantu so that McPherson can start they are flat out fools. Cantu's defensive problems (22 errors) were negated by the fact that he hit .277 (.808 OPS) with 92 runs scored, 41 doubles, 29 homers and 95 RBIs in 2008.

This would be fine, if those PA were not in 2005-2006. This immediately destroys your argument, but if you want to use even bad numbers, McPherson is a career .263/.318/.498 (.816) vs RHP at the MLB level. That is Mike Jacobs, i.e., an adequate starting baseball player.

 

As for the future, McPherson absolutely drilled RHP in the minors this year and seemingly is healthy for the first time in awhile. I find it very likely McPherson hits at least RHP at a solid clip and becomes a poor man's 3B version of Jack Cust. Gonna whiff a ton, but he's going to jack 20-30 and walk enough to be useful. Coupled with Helms vs LHP, and both are defensive upgrades to Cantu, this is not a big deal and a relatively neutral swap. Also, in a worst case scenario everyone fails, Coghlan could be used at 3B from the summer on and there would of course be trade candidates.

 

Cantu is 100% expendable as long as the team acquires a left handed 1B/LF type to help Gaby out at 1B. It has nothing to do with Dallas.

yea i donlike mcpherson much either i mean he might be good, he might not, we will see buti rather have cantu then him obviously

It is way sexier to look to some mysterious outside force (or unknown quantity like a AAA 3B) to solve problems than to just realize that a free-swinging LH 1B but big power is as better option than an unproven free-swinging LH 3B.

I really find it hard to believe that so many people are ready to kick Jorge Cantu to the curb because we have Dallas McPherson waiting in the wings. McPherson might have had a great year in AAA-ball, but, that was in a hitter's park. A close look at his major league career tells you that he might have big problems if given the starting job at 3B for the Marlins. He is a .245 career hitter and that might be his ceiling as he has whiffed 126 times in 371 at bats so far. His career OBP is .298 which is pretty pathetic. If the Marlins move Cantu so that McPherson can start they are flat out fools. Cantu's defensive problems (22 errors) were negated by the fact that he hit .277 (.808 OPS) with 92 runs scored, 41 doubles, 29 homers and 95 RBIs in 2008.

This would be fine, if those PA were not in 2005-2006. This immediately destroys your argument, but if you want to use even bad numbers, McPherson is a career .263/.318/.498 (.816) vs RHP at the MLB level. That is Mike Jacobs, i.e., an adequate starting baseball player.

 

As for the future, McPherson absolutely drilled RHP in the minors this year and seemingly is healthy for the first time in awhile. I find it very likely McPherson hits at least RHP at a solid clip and becomes a poor man's 3B version of Jack Cust. Gonna whiff a ton, but he's going to jack 20-30 and walk enough to be useful. Coupled with Helms vs LHP, and both are defensive upgrades to Cantu, this is not a big deal and a relatively neutral swap. Also, in a worst case scenario everyone fails, Coghlan could be used at 3B from the summer on and there would of course be trade candidates.

 

Cantu is 100% expendable as long as the team acquires a left handed 1B/LF type to help Gaby out at 1B. It has nothing to do with Dallas.

 

There's enough truth in both posts for them to be equally valid.

 

A few things though: 75% the 'Topes road games were with teams east of them since they changed divisions. So it isn't like he was teeing off in Salt Lake City and Colorado every night. He was hurt a couple of times, halfway through, and towards the end of the season (he missed an all-star game because of one) but he was able to get back to playing everyday before the season ended. While he was more or less healthy all season with respect to his back early on he was quite out of shape and by the end of the season was noticably dragging. But all in all he showed he can withstand the rigors of a full season, especially after being away from it for almost two.

 

I say all this as a guy who was ridiculed as a McPherson lover most of last season, but I wouldn't be so quick to trade Jorge Cantu until I knew, I mean I really knew McPherson can step up to the next level. There was a fascinating quote from one of his teammates who said (paraphrasing), "they ought be charging us (the other ballplayers) to watch this guy hit homeruns", but we know Cantu to hit at this level, we really need to see Dallas do the same.

 

The other thing is the strikeouts which to his credit got better as the season progressed but the thing that most fans I know would point to as Cantu's overriding strength was putting the ball in play, being able to move runners along, "knowing" what he needed to do (in a sport where failure two of three times is a ticket to Cooperstown) even if he wasn't always successful. You could see he was having smart at bats. That's not so easy to replace, whether with McPherson or many other players.

 

I'm least worried about Cantu's errors, since a number of them were throwing errors and in the first half of the season when he arm was ailing, I don't think any of us can speak with authority about what his defensive abilities can be going forward at third base.

 

Both players were better third basemen at the end of the season than they were at the beginning.

 

I agree with Lou that McPherson's previous major league offensive stats are questionable and really can't be used to benchmark the guy. He played hurt so much, for so long as his back worsened and worsened (look at this DLs and injury reports pre-surgery) I don't think we've seen yet what a healthy Dallas McPherson can do.

 

In the end I'm not sure I wouldn't rather be pleasantly surprised to find out Cantu (the healthier of the two) had been working in left field this off-season (and maybe playing a bit there in the MexLeague). Without opening up the can of worms who are the the third and fourth outfielders (assuming Maybin is a lock in center) for myself I'm not ready to send 30 homeruns away that quickly and a guy who knows what he's going to try to do every time he walks to the plate - EVEN for a first rate/good (not named Ross or Hernandez you get the picture) catcher. But I'm old school when it comes to catchers. A catcher's job is behind the plate and in the heads of his pitching staff, throwing out runners, stopping errant throws and blocking the plate like a Secret Service body guard. Anything else is frosting on the cake.

 

I'm perfectly happy with a .240/.310 hitting catcher who does all of the above. But that's me. Just don't be so quick to jettison Cantu.

yea i donlike mcpherson much either i mean he might be good, he might not, we will see buti rather have cantu then him obviously

Cantu proved himself last year down here and I think he is a good fit on this team and the fans love him. I hope Cantu stays around and has a position next year.

Just don't be so quick to jettison Cantu.

You mentioned this in your post, but the overwhelming factor in this whole debate is the 4th outfielder. If Cantu or McPherson can do it, we don't need to make any moves besides upgrading the backup catcher. I think this basically comes down to Cantu, as McPherson's back will always be an issue.

 

C - Baker / Right Handed Backup

1B - Cantu / G. Sanchez / Helms

2B - Uggla / Bonifacio / Amezaga

SS - Hanley / Amezaga / Bonfiacio

3B - McPherson / Cantu / Helms

LF - Ross / Cantu / Bonifacio

CF - Maybin / Ross / Amezaga

RF - Hermida / Ross / Maybin

 

I'd want expected playing time splits of this

1B - Cantu/Gaby 81 starts each. Cantu more RHP, Gaby all LHP and some RHP

2B/SS - Mostly Hanley and Dan, just off days for the rest

3B - McPherson 80-90 vs RHP, Cantu 30 vs LHP, let Helms/Bonifacio slum the other games

LF - Ross 120 vs all LHP some RHP, Cantu 30 vs RHP, Bonifacio slum the rest

CF - Maybin 140 games, Ross and Amezaga splitting the rest

RF - Hopefully Hermida emerges as an everyday (but if he doesn't we could try combinations of Gaby/McPherson/Cantu 1B/3B/LF and move Ross over)

 

It basically creates options. That 4th OF spot is the big question that is left because it allows us the flexibility to move EVERYBODY around. I think it's more important to have a 4th OF to protect the uncertainty with Maybin and Hermida, versus having a billion infielders, and even the "young" ones were college kids and an older McPherson getting his career back in line. If Cantu can't do it, we need to find a guy who can play 1B/LF who can protect Gaby/Maybin/Hermida (all very important long term properties), and roll the dice with a McPherson/Helms/Bonifacio 3B situation (all not important long term properties).

I can see it both ways. He is still a young player with a lot of upside. I mean he was a top prospect in an organization with the likes of Howie Kendrick, Brandon Wood, Casey Kotchman, Ervin Santana, etc.

 

Though I can see the other side of the arguement. There have been so many guys that have had big AAA seasons as D-Mac has had, but never really amounted to anything. That list includes Mike Hessman, Kevin Witt, Josh Phelps, and former Marlins AAA-er Robert Stratton.

 

He also was unimpressive in his short stint with the Fish this year.

I can see it both ways. He is still a young player with a lot of upside. I mean he was a top prospect in an organization with the likes of Howie Kendrick, Brandon Wood, Casey Kotchman, Ervin Santana, etc.

 

Though I can see the other side of the arguement. There have been so many guys that have had big AAA seasons as D-Mac has had, but never really amounted to anything. That list includes Mike Hessman, Kevin Witt, Josh Phelps, and former Marlins AAA-er Robert Stratton.

 

He also was unimpressive in his short stint with the Fish this year.

 

 

McPherson is not a kid. He is 28 years old. Also, he did whiff 168 times in only 448 at bats in AAA and that's horrible no matter how you try to spin it. I'm not saying that he can't play well, but, Cantu is a much better player than him right now.

Just don't be so quick to jettison Cantu.

You mentioned this in your post, but the overwhelming factor in this whole debate is the 4th outfielder. If Cantu or McPherson can do it, we don't need to make any moves besides upgrading the backup catcher. I think this basically comes down to Cantu, as McPherson's back will always be an issue.

 

C - Baker / Right Handed Backup

1B - Cantu / G. Sanchez / Helms

2B - Uggla / Bonifacio / Amezaga

SS - Hanley / Amezaga / Bonfiacio

3B - McPherson / Cantu / Helms

LF - Ross / Cantu / Bonifacio

CF - Maybin / Ross / Amezaga

RF - Hermida / Ross / Maybin

 

I'd want expected playing time splits of this

1B - Cantu/Gaby 81 starts each. Cantu more RHP, Gaby all LHP and some RHP

2B/SS - Mostly Hanley and Dan, just off days for the rest

3B - McPherson 80-90 vs RHP, Cantu 30 vs LHP, let Helms/Bonifacio slum the other games

LF - Ross 120 vs all LHP some RHP, Cantu 30 vs RHP, Bonifacio slum the rest

CF - Maybin 140 games, Ross and Amezaga splitting the rest

RF - Hopefully Hermida emerges as an everyday (but if he doesn't we could try combinations of Gaby/McPherson/Cantu 1B/3B/LF and move Ross over)

 

It basically creates options. That 4th OF spot is the big question that is left because it allows us the flexibility to move EVERYBODY around. I think it's more important to have a 4th OF to protect the uncertainty with Maybin and Hermida, versus having a billion infielders, and even the "young" ones were college kids and an older McPherson getting his career back in line. If Cantu can't do it, we need to find a guy who can play 1B/LF who can protect Gaby/Maybin/Hermida (all very important long term properties), and roll the dice with a McPherson/Helms/Bonifacio 3B situation (all not important long term properties).

 

Platooning so many positions is tough. I also do not think it would be smart to play Cantu 141 games + possible RF. That is a lot of games at 4 different positions. I think if anything he will play mostly 1B/3B and play about 120-130 games. I think that would be ideal for him too.

I can see it both ways. He is still a young player with a lot of upside. I mean he was a top prospect in an organization with the likes of Howie Kendrick, Brandon Wood, Casey Kotchman, Ervin Santana, etc.

 

Though I can see the other side of the arguement. There have been so many guys that have had big AAA seasons as D-Mac has had, but never really amounted to anything. That list includes Mike Hessman, Kevin Witt, Josh Phelps, and former Marlins AAA-er Robert Stratton.

 

He also was unimpressive in his short stint with the Fish this year.

I will say one thing about his short stint here. His BA sucked but dude walked like crazy. He ended up with a .400 OBP.

Platooning so many positions is tough. I also do not think it would be smart to play Cantu 141 games + possible RF. That is a lot of games at 4 different positions. I think if anything he will play mostly 1B/3B and play about 120-130 games. I think that would be ideal for him too.

Who said anything about RF?

 

Platooning is also a good thing if you have imperfect options, which we have a ton of. It would be ideal to have a fluid team where 3 guys can legitimately play at every position, and then let competition and performance sort it out.

Platooning so many positions is tough. I also do not think it would be smart to play Cantu 141 games + possible RF. That is a lot of games at 4 different positions. I think if anything he will play mostly 1B/3B and play about 120-130 games. I think that would be ideal for him too.

Who said anything about RF?

 

Platooning is also a good thing if you have imperfect options, which we have a ton of. It would be ideal to have a fluid team where 3 guys can legitimately play at every position, and then let competition and performance sort it out.

 

Cantu deserves to play every day if he's on the Marlins, period.

Platooning so many positions is tough. I also do not think it would be smart to play Cantu 141 games + possible RF. That is a lot of games at 4 different positions. I think if anything he will play mostly 1B/3B and play about 120-130 games. I think that would be ideal for him too.

Who said anything about RF?

 

Platooning is also a good thing if you have imperfect options, which we have a ton of. It would be ideal to have a fluid team where 3 guys can legitimately play at every position, and then let competition and performance sort it out.

 

Cantu deserves to play every day if he's on the Marlins, period.

 

I think everyone here wants cantu to get all the playing time weather it be at 1st or 3rd, however i think Dallas and gaby will be the ones battling for playing time. Cantu proved himself last year as he was arguably our most consistent hitter. I dont know what your worrying about he will be in the line up as long as his bat produces. Think of it this way if he does hit a slump cause hes tired or something dallas should be able to fill in just fine.

I think everyone here wants cantu to get all the playing time weather it be at 1st or 3rd, however i think Dallas and gaby will be the ones battling for playing time. Cantu proved himself last year as he was arguably our most consistent hitter. I dont know what your worrying about he will be in the line up as long as his bat produces. Think of it this way if he does hit a slump cause hes tired or something dallas should be able to fill in just fine.

This is ignoring the problem - 4th outfielder.

 

Someone not named Bonifacio or Amezaga needs to be able to do it. We currently have no one.

I think everyone here wants cantu to get all the playing time weather it be at 1st or 3rd, however i think Dallas and gaby will be the ones battling for playing time. Cantu proved himself last year as he was arguably our most consistent hitter. I dont know what your worrying about he will be in the line up as long as his bat produces. Think of it this way if he does hit a slump cause hes tired or something dallas should be able to fill in just fine.

This is ignoring the problem - 4th outfielder.

 

Someone not named Bonifacio or Amezaga needs to be able to do it. We currently have no one.

 

You mean is we have no one you think is acceptable. :brigginbounce

 

Three names immediately come to mind, no four, even five - Ross, Raynor, Carroll, Murphy (MiLB free agent) and of course Bonifacio who either as a way to keep him in the lineup as he's having a good DWL season or at the behest of the Fish, continues to play 9 out 10 games in either right field or CF.

 

BTW, I should have bookmarked it (my bad) but there's a lot video of Bonifacio (and the winter leagues generally) on the web both as a Washington National in 2008 and this winter in DWL where (I don't speak spanish) he appears to have been the player of the game (I say that because he's done some post-game interviews out on the field).

 

I came across this site that aggregates video from ESPN, other sources including You Tube, a whole assortment of places. (Anyone know, please save me some back-tracking) Trying to find it again. But enjoy this video on Licey where some interesting players you'll recognize pop up and a certain pimpin' player who shall remain nameless is seen a number of times in the vid. Enjoy.

 

 

EDIT: http://www.findinternettv.com/

 

I wonder if Beinfest has seen this...lol

I would rather Cantu play first base and McPherson third base with Sanchez as an option.

 

McPherson has a lot more potential for run production than Gaby Sanchez.

I think everyone here wants cantu to get all the playing time weather it be at 1st or 3rd, however i think Dallas and gaby will be the ones battling for playing time. Cantu proved himself last year as he was arguably our most consistent hitter. I dont know what your worrying about he will be in the line up as long as his bat produces. Think of it this way if he does hit a slump cause hes tired or something dallas should be able to fill in just fine.

This is ignoring the problem - 4th outfielder.

 

Someone not named Bonifacio or Amezaga needs to be able to do it. We currently have no one.

 

 

My post was mostly directed to backin2008. Whats wrong with fredo in the OF as the 4th. He can do it but its not always pretty.

You mean is we have no one you think is acceptable. :brigginbounce

 

Three names immediately come to mind, no four, even five - Ross, Raynor, Carroll, Murphy (MiLB free agent) and of course Bonifacio who either as a way to keep him in the lineup as he's having a good DWL season or at the behest of the Fish, continues to play 9 out 10 games in either right field or CF.

 

BTW, I should have bookmarked it (my bad) but there's a lot video of Bonifacio (and the winter leagues generally) on the web both as a Washington National in 2008 and this winter in DWL where (I don't speak spanish) he appears to have been the player of the game (I say that because he's done some post-game interviews out on the field).

 

I came across this site that aggregates video from ESPN, other sources including You Tube, a whole assortment of places. (Anyone know, please save me some back-tracking) Trying to find it again. But enjoy this video on Licey where some interesting players you'll recognize pop up and a certain pimpin' player who shall remain nameless is seen a number of times in the vid. Enjoy.

 

 

EDIT: http://www.findinternettv.com/

 

I wonder if Beinfest has seen this...lol

Could this be the video you are talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QMnPcQVV-U and no Banefacio is not the MVP, Ortiz(SP) was.

 

That's not it but thanks I never tire of watching baseball. :thumbup

 

Did you notice you know who?

I think everyone here wants cantu to get all the playing time weather it be at 1st or 3rd, however i think Dallas and gaby will be the ones battling for playing time. Cantu proved himself last year as he was arguably our most consistent hitter. I dont know what your worrying about he will be in the line up as long as his bat produces. Think of it this way if he does hit a slump cause hes tired or something dallas should be able to fill in just fine.

This is ignoring the problem - 4th outfielder.

 

Someone not named Bonifacio or Amezaga needs to be able to do it. We currently have no one.

 

You mean is we have no one you think is acceptable. :brigginbounce

 

Three names immediately come to mind, no four, even five - Ross, Raynor, Carroll, Murphy (MiLB free agent) and of course Bonifacio who either as a way to keep him in the lineup as he's having a good DWL season or at the behest of the Fish, continues to play 9 out 10 games in either right field or CF.

I wouldn't say acceptable, it's more like of what we currently have. Ross is going to be starting in LF, so he doesn't count. Amezaga, Bonifacio, and Andino don't have the slugging potential to be a legitimate 4th power option for the OF. All of them, more than adequate 5ths. This brings us to the problem. Yea, we have Carroll, Raynor, and a bit behind them Cousins and Petersen. I have no problems with someone like this living on the bench, but we don't have room if we're maximizing our team's best players.

 

Eleven Locks - Baker, Treanor/Backup , Uggla, Hanley, McPherson (out of options), Helms, Ross, Maybin, Hermida, and two of Amezaga, Bonifacio, and Andino as backup infielders/5th outfielders. I have not included Cantu and G. Sanchez, but they would be the obvious 12 and 13. We COULD send Sanchez to AAA, and keep a 4th outfielder instead. No problems with that, but I just find this doubtful with the way the organization is talking to the press. If we go into the year with these 13, the backup outfielders could be the backup infielders unless somebody from Cantu/McPherson/Helms/G.Sanchez is playing in LF, and those are really not options except MAYBE Cantu. It's going to be horrible if Bonifacio and Amezaga are the 4th and 5th outfielders. We're shooting ourselves in the foot with barely .400 slugging potential. EB's good winter or not.

 

But I mean, no on acceptable? If they want to keep G. Sanchez in AAA, and call up Raynor/Carroll, or preferably a free agent, and this is the team:

 

C - Baker (Treanor)

1B - Cantu (Helms, McPherson)

2B - Uggla (Bonifacio, Amezaga)

SS - Hanley (Amezaga, Bonifacio)

3B - McPherson (Helms, Bonifacio)

LF - Ross (Raynor/Carroll, Bonifacio)

CF - Maybin (Ross, Amezaga)

RF - Hermida (Ross, Bonifacio)

 

But then we have a problem of if McPherson isn't hitting, all we have is Helms and now one of the corner infielders sucks. I like McPherson, but it would be perfect to have Gaby around so the 'three' of them are always playing off each other in a 1B/3B competition. It would be nice to ease in both Mcpherson and Gaby. This is almost as important as a 4th outfielder to help with Maybin and the unknown of Hermida, but not quite.

 

The end result is - It's all about getting someone that can hit a bit in LF whether it's Cantu, or keeping G. Sanchez down and having another OF option, or trading Cantu playing McPherson/Gaby at the corners, and bringing in a left handed 1B/LF that can help out. One of these three things needs to happen because we can't go into the year with AA and EB handling significant 4th OF time.

 

I think we both agree, the best scenario is Cantu (or McPherson) being able to play LF. We can promote our top 13 organizational hitters and leave Coghlan, Raynor, and Carroll in AAA for callups if someone goes down. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for somebody to ask Beinfest this question about Cantu or whoever in LF at fan fest, or someone to pump this to a newspaper to find out. If one of them can hold down LF for 30-40 games, and spot there random games for double switches, pinch hitting, and what not, our 25 man roster is totally set and I won't have to carpet bomb the front office because they have absolutely lost their mind keeping a 25 man roster with 10 infielders and 3 outfielders.

 

I basically want this

 

C - Baker (Treanor)

1B - Cantu (G. Sanchez, Helms)

2B - Uggla (Bonifacio, Amezaga)

SS - Hanley (Amezaga, Bonifacio)

3B - McPherson (Cantu, Helms)

LF - Ross (Cantu, Bonifacio)

CF - Maybin (Ross, Amezaga)

RF - Hermida (Ross, Bonifacio)

 

Love that team. Absolutely love it. Huge question mark with Cantu there though.

Are you sure McPherson is out of options?

 

I thought we went through this either last spring or this summer and we were all surprised that he had a number left. He only has slightly over 2 years of MLB service time. I honestly can't say definitively but I'd question that...at least for the moment.

Could this be the video you are talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QMnPcQVV-U and no Banefacio is not the MVP, Ortiz(SP) was.

 

That's not it but thanks I never tire of watching baseball. :thumbup

 

Did you notice you know who?

 

Emilio Bonifacio? Check out the speedster run:

 

 

Damn, that guy is fast!

Could this be the video you are talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QMnPcQVV-U and no Banefacio is not the MVP, Ortiz(SP) was.

 

That's not it but thanks I never tire of watching baseball. :thumbup

 

Did you notice you know who?

 

Emilio Bonifacio? Check out the speedster run:

 

 

Damn, that guy is fast!

 

uh huh. So far in tonight's game he's 2-4 with 2 stolen bases. You can see in the guy that he's isn't a complete (as in 5 tool) player but he's good with a glove and fast as hell and as he ran out that triple in the video you posted I'm saying to myself "Mike Jacobs would have made it to first".

 

I'm surprised no one picked up on the one I posted above. I thought it was a sure hit.