I'm responding to Rab.

 

I would be willing to bet that since that 2003 season there have been more than 20 Marlins players who took PED's or HGH but weren't caught. There are many players that know how to work around the system.

 

Noone got suspended until 2005. People were caught, there was random drug testing (remember A-Rod and Ortiz?), but there was no penalty at the time.

 

 

And, not an actual Dr.Beinfest, I have no reason to just assume 10 Marlins since the Mitchell Report have done PEDs and neither do you.

 

Why is that? I mean you've got two or three already revealed.

 

2 or 3 is a far cry from 10.

 

Uhh what? 2 or 3 caught does not mean 2 or 3 are using. That means 2 or 3 caught, exactly what it says. If you think they are catching everyone, you're sorely mistaken.

And you say they're only catching 1/5th of the offenders because..... what?

And you say they're only catching 1/5th of the offenders because..... what?

 

 

1/3 1/5th it doesnt matter. You dont know the numbers just like I dont, but clearly it's not that hard to get around if players are getting caught at different times. If the system was so sound, everybody would be caught right away. Clearly, Paulino was getting away with it for a time we do not know.

 

Im afraid to just say it bluntly but you're really naive if you really think that over the past 5 years or so only 3 Marlins have juiced.

And you say they're only catching 1/5th of the offenders because..... what?

 

 

1/3 1/5th it doesnt matter. You dont know the numbers just like I dont, but clearly it's not that hard to get around if players are getting caught at different times. If the system was so sound, everybody would be caught right away. Clearly, Paulino was getting away with it for a time we do not know.

 

Im afraid to just say it bluntly but you're really naive if you really think that over the past 5 years or so only 3 Marlins have juiced.

And you have reason to believe otherwise becaaaaauuuuse?

I can say the exact same thing to you...

 

 

and you have reason to believe that only three have in the past 5 years or so becaauuuusee?

I can say the exact same thing to you...

 

 

and you have reason to believe that only three have in the past 5 years or so becaauuuusee?

 

I never said there were (though I have zero reason to believe otherwise), but I think to say that it's 500% more for NO reason is silly.

 

You literally have NOTHING.

Burden of proof is decidedly not on Rab here.

I never said there were (though I have zero reason to believe otherwise), but I think to say that it's 500% more for NO reason is silly.

 

You literally have NOTHING.

 

 

You seem to like to use numbers... but at least stop taking the benefit and calling it 1/5th/500%/whatever. But 500% in reference to 2 might be the same percentage, but it's only a difference of 8, and it's remarkably different from 500% of bigger numbers. Dont pretend like it's impossible, it's very likely. You've got nothing, your guess is just as good as mine. Except I think unconfirmed rumors of juicing, the whole idea that these players indeed do keep it secret. I think everybody will agree (because its almost impossible) that not everybody gets caught.

 

But we can play numbers, that's fine.

 

If three were caught, in the past 3 years alone, would it not be safe to say that for every one that gets caught, one got away? I mean... 1 is the least amount of people that can get away if you agree that people get away with it. But that's only 200%? Yeah, enough with that, please. But 2x per year... over 3 years... would be 6.

 

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

And you say they're only catching 1/5th of the offenders because..... what?

 

 

1/3 1/5th it doesnt matter. You dont know the numbers just like I dont, but clearly it's not that hard to get around if players are getting caught at different times. If the system was so sound, everybody would be caught right away. Clearly, Paulino was getting away with it for a time we do not know.

 

Im afraid to just say it bluntly but you're really naive if you really think that over the past 5 years or so only 3 Marlins have juiced.

And you have reason to believe otherwise becaaaaauuuuse?

 

Exactly, the testing has really cut it down a lot. These guys make way too much money to be risking a 50 game suspension with no pay.

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

 

 

Really ? Names please :mischief

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

 

 

Really ? Names please :mischief

 

Oh lord for your sake I really hope you are asking for names of people who agree with me, rather than the names of people who are getting away with juicing.

I never said there were (though I have zero reason to believe otherwise), but I think to say that it's 500% more for NO reason is silly.

 

You literally have NOTHING.

 

 

You seem to like to use numbers... but at least stop taking the benefit and calling it 1/5th/500%/whatever. But 500% in reference to 2 might be the same percentage, but it's only a difference of 8, and it's remarkably different from 500% of bigger numbers. Dont pretend like it's impossible, it's very likely. You've got nothing, your guess is just as good as mine. Except I think unconfirmed rumors of juicing, the whole idea that these players indeed do keep it secret. I think everybody will agree (because its almost impossible) that not everybody gets caught.

 

But we can play numbers, that's fine.

 

If three were caught, in the past 3 years alone, would it not be safe to say that for every one that gets caught, one got away? I mean... 1 is the least amount of people that can get away if you agree that people get away with it. But that's only 200%? Yeah, enough with that, please. But 2x per year... over 3 years... would be 6.

 

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

Facepalm.

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

 

 

Really ? Names please :mischief

 

Oh lord for your sake I really hope you are asking for names of people who agree with me, rather than the names of people who are getting away with juicing.

 

No I am really asking for the juicers names. I just think you are way off. The numbers in home runs, and power numbers all show a distinct drop since testing has entered the game. Maybe one out of 20 is now juicing as compared to 1 out of 5 or 6 as it used to be.

I never said there were (though I have zero reason to believe otherwise), but I think to say that it's 500% more for NO reason is silly.

 

You literally have NOTHING.

 

 

You seem to like to use numbers... but at least stop taking the benefit and calling it 1/5th/500%/whatever. But 500% in reference to 2 might be the same percentage, but it's only a difference of 8, and it's remarkably different from 500% of bigger numbers. Dont pretend like it's impossible, it's very likely. You've got nothing, your guess is just as good as mine. Except I think unconfirmed rumors of juicing, the whole idea that these players indeed do keep it secret. I think everybody will agree (because its almost impossible) that not everybody gets caught.

 

But we can play numbers, that's fine.

 

If three were caught, in the past 3 years alone, would it not be safe to say that for every one that gets caught, one got away? I mean... 1 is the least amount of people that can get away if you agree that people get away with it. But that's only 200%? Yeah, enough with that, please. But 2x per year... over 3 years... would be 6.

 

You literally have nothing, I may not be the best at speaking my mind, but Im pretty sure everyone agrees that there are several players getting away with juicing. Dont pretend like I just pulled a completely random number. 2 people juicing on a single roster per year is not a ton.

You did completely pull out a random number! You don't have any proof of anything. You don't have anything to say that you should have any proof of anything. You just randomly said that you think at least 10 Marlins in the last 3 years have been "juicing" because, well, that's what you think. Do you have any reason to think that? No. Do you have anything that substantiates this claim? No.

 

You've got nothing. What I have is 2 guys who've been caught and no proof that anyone has ever cheated the system.

You did completely pull out a random number! You don't have any proof of anything. You don't have anything to say that you should have any proof of anything. You just randomly said that you think at least 10 Marlins in the last 3 years have been "juicing" because, well, that's what you think. Do you have any reason to think that? No. Do you have anything that substantiates this claim? No.

 

You've got nothing. What I have is 2 guys who've been caught and no proof that anyone has ever cheated the system.

 

 

Well of course neither of us have any right to think anything, because something done in secrecy is of course done... in secrecy. That doesnt take a genius to figure out. You choose to believe that everyone or almost everyone who uses PEDs gets caught, I choose to believe that more people get away with it (which isnt to say that they arent the exact same people who get caught in the future...).

 

Dont pretend like it is my job to prove the point, it is not like Im not speaking within reason. You dont know, I dont know. The only thing that I wouldnt understand is why anyone would think that there are no users who dont get caught. I think Mark McGuire proves that point, fair enough? Of course it's much harder to get away with nowadays, but the idea surrounding it is that players do get away with it.

 

For the fun of it... here is a list of players that were simply part of this organization from 2005-2010 who have been at least once caught with PEDs or mentioned in the Mitchell Report.

 

Owens

Mitre

Paulino

Lo Duca

Sosa

I guess Ramon Castro doesnt count

Mota

Valdez

Herges

Donnelly

 

Please dont pretend like usage of steroids is uncommon. That's 10 names in it's own right, 9 not counting Ramon Castro. Yeah, of course they could've and some of them did take steroids on other teams... but nothing makes the Florida Marlins any cleaner than any other team. I dont know why it's impossible to believe that 10 people have juiced over 5 years or so and gotten away with it.

 

edit: and a little internet search has shown me that Clay Hensley also belongs to that list.

 

And nothing says these players arent juicing in another form, or circumventing their tests in another way. Being caught once doesnt stop you from taking PEDs, several players have been caught as repeat offenders. Im sure a few have also gotten away with it. For now.

So because many people used steroids in a period with no penalties, no testing, and a much higher steroid use, you believe that it's at the same levels now?

 

And no, I don't know, that's why I'm not making any claims about who just how many people are using PEDs and not getting caught. You on the other hand admit to not know yet make the claims freely. That's ridiculous.

So because many people used steroids in a period with no penalties, no testing, and a much higher steroid use, you believe that it's at the same levels now?

 

And no, I don't know, that's why I'm not making any claims about who just how many people are using PEDs and not getting caught. You on the other hand admit to not know yet make the claims freely. That's ridiculous.

 

 

Yeah, making claims freely. That's it. Not based upon the Steroid Era. Many of those players were caught after policies were enacted in 2004 and adjusted in 2005.

 

Yeah, usage is probably lower than pre-Mitchell Report, but that doesnt mean that several players did not get away with it. Im sure they didnt catch everyone with the Mitchell Report, intellegence only goes so far.

You're just being ridiculous if you really think there aren't tons of steroids in baseball.

 

Go watch the documentary Bigger Stronger Faster.

So because many people used steroids in a period with no penalties, no testing, and a much higher steroid use, you believe that it's at the same levels now?

 

And no, I don't know, that's why I'm not making any claims about who just how many people are using PEDs and not getting caught. You on the other hand admit to not know yet make the claims freely. That's ridiculous.

 

 

Yeah, making claims freely. That's it. Not based upon the Steroid Era. Many of those players were caught after policies were enacted in 2004 and adjusted in 2005.

 

Yeah, usage is probably lower than pre-Mitchell Report, but that doesnt mean that several players did not get away with it. Im sure they didnt catch everyone with the Mitchell Report, intellegence only goes so far.

We're not in the steroid era. And you were saying guys SINCE the Mitchell Report.

So because many people used steroids in a period with no penalties, no testing, and a much higher steroid use, you believe that it's at the same levels now?

 

And no, I don't know, that's why I'm not making any claims about who just how many people are using PEDs and not getting caught. You on the other hand admit to not know yet make the claims freely. That's ridiculous.

 

 

Yeah, making claims freely. That's it. Not based upon the Steroid Era. Many of those players were caught after policies were enacted in 2004 and adjusted in 2005.

 

Yeah, usage is probably lower than pre-Mitchell Report, but that doesnt mean that several players did not get away with it. Im sure they didnt catch everyone with the Mitchell Report, intellegence only goes so far.

We're not in the steroid era. And you were saying guys SINCE the Mitchell Report.

 

The Steroid Era would be the time directly before our time. The Mitchell Report was a 2 year investigation. People were talking about Pudge juicing in 03, the conversation has dissolved, initially I was talking specifically about the Mitchell Report, but Im not limiting this to that, I've been saying the past 5 years or so for quite some time now.

As I pointed out at the break, Olivo has terrible home/road splits, and they've gotten even worse. He's OPSing .572 away from Coors. And he's still leading MLB in passed balls.

 

It seems like a lot of people like to pretend otherwise, but he's still not a better player than he was with the Marlins.

 

That may be so but he leads all catchers in Rdrs with +11.

I believe rdrs only focuses on SB/CS

I read the book "Juiced" by Jose Canseco and the amazing thing about it to me is that not ONE player from that book has sued Canseco. That leads me to believe that he was telling the truth about everyone. People look down on him for being a cheater but baseball's going to be a lot better because of his whistle blowing. I know that a lot of guys are probably just using whatever else MLB can't test for right now. So count me on the side of thinking that a few players from every team are still trying to cheat including the Marlins and not just Ronny Paulino.

I believe rdrs only focuses on SB/CS

 

Maybe so, I don't know, I'll take your word for it. But even so, lets say he's the only catcher that has had any passed balls all season and his 9 passed balls were worth -3 runs. He would be 2nd in MLB with a +8 in Rdrs.