It's not routine plays. It's his lack of range.

 

 

I'm saying specifically for the statistic that we, my good sir, refer to as the humanistic way of the, quote, "error."

/class off

 

Yeah, his range sucks.

He doesn't seem to me to have the kind of all-world quickness you'd need to really excel there but it's hard for me to pick up on him being THIS bad. I'm not questioning the stats, just saying I don't notice it watching a game and it seems like you should to an extent if he's this bad. That's part of the point of using stats I realize, just seems like it would be more noticeable. Again, I do think he's not as quick as some shortstops, but I can't recall often watching a game where I've said "Hech you suck, every other shortstop in the league makes that play and you can't." And that's what the stats seem to suggest.

 

The arm is fine and generally he's pretty smooth over there. The errors on routine plays he's making this month probably won't be a concern long-term, but even before this month of errors Adeiny was at or near the bottom. Can he honestly have less range than Hanley?? We sat and watched Hanley for years and railed about how bad he was out there. Tulo is 6'3" and weighs 30 lbs more, can he be that much quicker than Adeiny?

 

If I'd had to guess where he ranked I suppose I would've picked somewhere in the middle. Just seems odd that he's rated so poorly.

 

 

Whatever, I guess this is the same thing the old fart non-stat guys struggle with, if I didn't see it then it didn't happen, etc, etc..

I know they are probably forced to do it to some extent but I really wish Rich and Tommy would stop touting players like Hechavarria and Solano as great talents. It's beyond nauseating to hear them build those guys up when they are really among the very worst starting players in baseball.

It's not routine plays. It's his lack of range.

 

 

I'm not so sure that's always the case. If I remember correctly, wasn't the error today on a ball that skidded up his arm even though he was in proper position?

 

Regardless, it seems like a lot of the times he doesn't have a problem getting to the ball but rather simply can't make the play once he's there. For example, I think he had a gaffe a couple of days ago were he fielded the ball fine but simply rushed the through.

I know this much, no matter how bad the stats say he is, I still think he's a better SS than Hanley.

 

That guy pissed me off every time a ball was hit three steps to his right or left.

It's not routine plays. It's his lack of range.

 

 

I'm not so sure that's always the case. If I remember correctly, wasn't the error today on a ball that skidded up his arm even though he was in proper position?

 

Regardless, it seems like a lot of the times he doesn't have a problem getting to the ball but rather simply can't make the play once he's there. For example, I think he had a gaffe a couple of days ago were he fielded the ball fine but simply rushed the through.

 

 

If we're evaluating Hechavarria's defense based on his UZR, his negative rating is due to his lack of range, not his errors. He rates as average to above average in errors, but his range grades very poorly.

That's a separate issue. I'm talking about what is causing the recent increase in errors this month.

Errors aren't Hechavarria's problem. These complaints did not start over the past two weeks, although they've grown larger over the past two weeks. However, anyone who thinks we're just complaining because of two weeks is being a BroncoBob.

 

Hechavarria's problem isn't that he's trying to do too much on routine plays. Hechavarria's problem is that he grades poorly with his range or lack thereof. The only reason why people think he's great defensively is because he's flashy on routine plays.

 

He has had a terrible year, but let's all give him a golf clap for his RBI 3B the other night. It'll at least make BroncoBob feel better about it.

 

 

 

 

Really haven't watched many games this year. And haven't really put my own thoughts out there. Other than saying some folks prefer to exaggerate the negatives, to the point they make things up, and totally ignore the good things. Pretty typical around here. Been happening for years. Just reading what guys with the credentials of those quoted in the PBP and other places, and then reading what some here want us to believe.....Guess which way I am leaning.

 

But if Erick and a couple others think they are more informed and smarter than the guys the PBP quoted then I would suggest calling the Post. 561-820-4100. Let them know who you are. I'm sure they will start quoting you guys instead. Could be the start of a new and very fruitful career. No need to thank me for the idea.

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

Errors aren't Hechavarria's problem. These complaints did not start over the past two weeks, although they've grown larger over the past two weeks. However, anyone who thinks we're just complaining because of two weeks is being a BroncoBob.

 

Hechavarria's problem isn't that he's trying to do too much on routine plays. Hechavarria's problem is that he grades poorly with his range or lack thereof. The only reason why people think he's great defensively is because he's flashy on routine plays.

 

He has had a terrible year, but let's all give him a golf clap for his RBI 3B the other night. It'll at least make BroncoBob feel better about it.

 

 

Really haven't watched many games this year. And haven't really put my own thoughts out there. Other than saying some folks prefer to exaggerate the negatives, to the point they make things up, and totally ignore the good things. Pretty typical around here. Been happening for years. Just reading what guys with the credentials of those quoted in the PBP and other places, and then reading what some here want us to believe.....Guess which way I am leaning.

 

But if Erick and a couple others think they are more informed and smarter than the guys the PBP quoted then I would suggest calling the Post. 561-820-4100. Let them know who you are. I'm sure they will start quoting you guys instead. Could be the start of a new and very fruitful career. No need to thank me for the idea.

 

Well two things... #1, those are also Marlins coaches who are going to talk him up. #2, Erick didn't create the stat, it's about as widely used (UZR) as there is when it comes to the advanced defensive stuff. I mean you're free to discount it if you want but it exists and unless you feel like whatever method is used to collect all that data just happens to somehow be biased against only Adeiny Hechavarria then it's at least worth wondering why he's rating so poorly when it comes to range.

 

I'll be interested to see if it varies much next year, it does seem like some defensive numbers can have a fair amount of sway from year to year and his seems unusually low. And let's not forgot we're still talking about a rookie for the most part. I'm not sure that a skill like range is going to improve with age but let's wait & see. At any rate, the Marlins don't appear to be looking to replace him anytime soon.

He just seems better the numbers indicate (yes, I know that is why we have numbers), I wonder if a larger body of work will reflect a better defensive player.

Only 6 games back from last place! This is doable

Unfortunately it seems like whenever the Marlins lose, the Astros lose as well.

Unfortunately it seems like whenever the Marlins lose, the Astros lose as well.

 

 

Well we've gained 2 games on them in these last 4 days, I believe. We've been consistently getting closer since we started consistently sucking

Only 6 games back from last place! This is doable

 

 

I want to believe!

Only 6 games back from last place! This is doable

 

 

I want to believe!

 

 

We have too much beefcake to overtake the Astros. We need to bench Solano!

Errors aren't Hechavarria's problem. These complaints did not start over the past two weeks, although they've grown larger over the past two weeks. However, anyone who thinks we're just complaining because of two weeks is being a BroncoBob.

 

Hechavarria's problem isn't that he's trying to do too much on routine plays. Hechavarria's problem is that he grades poorly with his range or lack thereof. The only reason why people think he's great defensively is because he's flashy on routine plays.

 

He has had a terrible year, but let's all give him a golf clap for his RBI 3B the other night. It'll at least make BroncoBob feel better about it.

 

 

 

 

Really haven't watched many games this year. And haven't really put my own thoughts out there. Other than saying some folks prefer to exaggerate the negatives, to the point they make things up, and totally ignore the good things. Pretty typical around here. Been happening for years. Just reading what guys with the credentials of those quoted in the PBP and other places, and then reading what some here want us to believe.....Guess which way I am leaning.

 

But if Erick and a couple others think they are more informed and smarter than the guys the PBP quoted then I would suggest calling the Post. 561-820-4100. Let them know who you are. I'm sure they will start quoting you guys instead. Could be the start of a new and very fruitful career. No need to thank me for the idea.

 

 

To be fair, the coaches are going to say the politically correct things. There are other informed baseball writers who disagree with those quotes you're citing. Do you think I'm just making up numbers?

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

 

 

What's the difference between what you used to say about Baker (or Gaby Sanchez) and what I'm saying about Hechavarria? Hechavarria is a lot like one of your other favorites, Emilio Bonifacio, who has moved on to have quite the mediocre career (just traded for nothing not so long ago).

 

Perhaps Hechavarria is better than his defensive #'s. No one has ever said that defensive #'s are perfect. They're flawed, but at the same time, I see no reason to fully ignore them. And while we're at it, while defensive #'s are far from perfect, offensive #'s are pretty accurate. Hechavarria's offensive #'s pretty much put him in a category of: "he has to be Ozzie Smith defensively to have any type of relevant value because he can't hit for shit."

 

You seem to defend defensive, toolsy players who can't hit a lot more than solid offensive players with no position. I don't know why that is, but you have a history of doing that. Maybe because shitty offensive players are written about more on here, and you like to be the contrarian at all times. It seems like you only post on here now to critique other members of the board.

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

 

 

What's the difference between what you used to say about Baker (or Gaby Sanchez) and what I'm saying about Hechavarria? Hechavarria is a lot like one of your other favorites, Emilio Bonifacio, who has moved on to have quite the mediocre career (just traded for nothing not so long ago).

 

Perhaps Hechavarria is better than his defensive #'s. No one has ever said that defensive #'s are perfect. They're flawed, but at the same time, I see no reason to fully ignore them. And while we're at it, while defensive #'s are far from perfect, offensive #'s are pretty accurate. Hechavarria's offensive #'s pretty much put him in a category of: "he has to be Ozzie Smith defensively to have any type of relevant value because he can't hit for s***."

 

You seem to defend defensive, toolsy players who can't hit a lot more than solid offensive players with no position. I don't know why that is, but you have a history of doing that. Maybe because sh*tty offensive players are written about more on here, and you like to be the contrarian at all times. It seems like you only post on here now to critique other members of the board.

 

 

 

 

I don't have now, nor have in the past, had any favorite. But I will defend those that are being exaggerated against. I'll do that quite often. Just going by what has been reported on about him from many more than just his coaches. The only thing I have agreed with is that I do believe he is getting fatigued right now.

 

But yea. I do like defensive players. It's what this team is supposed to be built on. "Pitching, defense, and speed." It's why this ball park was built in it's current configuration. When they want to bring the fences in and start building an offensive minded team, then I'll start looking at things differently.

That's a separate issue. I'm talking about what is causing the recent increase in errors this month.

 

 

I'm going with the fatigued theory. I do think he will be fine IF he can master the offensive angle of his play. One can only hope that this season does teach him how much it takes to play a full season and maybe work a little harder in the off season with his conditioning. This season was a write off from the start. A learning process for a lot of our players. And a season where the fans need to show some patience. I think next season will be more of a telling factor of what we really have. If he, or any other player, isn't living up to expectations then we do something about it. It's far too soon to be writing any player off.

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

 

 

What's the difference between what you used to say about Baker (or Gaby Sanchez) and what I'm saying about Hechavarria? Hechavarria is a lot like one of your other favorites, Emilio Bonifacio, who has moved on to have quite the mediocre career (just traded for nothing not so long ago).

 

Perhaps Hechavarria is better than his defensive #'s. No one has ever said that defensive #'s are perfect. They're flawed, but at the same time, I see no reason to fully ignore them. And while we're at it, while defensive #'s are far from perfect, offensive #'s are pretty accurate. Hechavarria's offensive #'s pretty much put him in a category of: "he has to be Ozzie Smith defensively to have any type of relevant value because he can't hit for s***."

 

You seem to defend defensive, toolsy players who can't hit a lot more than solid offensive players with no position. I don't know why that is, but you have a history of doing that. Maybe because sh*tty offensive players are written about more on here, and you like to be the contrarian at all times. It seems like you only post on here now to critique other members of the board.

 

 

 

In fairness, there are one or two others who are consistently contrarian, and Bronco Bob doesn't usually resort to insults to strengthen his position. Besides, once 6 or 8 posters have said the same thing about a player, I like reading another point of view, even if I don't agree with it.

 

By posting this in BB's defense, I guess I have become a contrarian too!

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

 

 

What's the difference between what you used to say about Baker (or Gaby Sanchez) and what I'm saying about Hechavarria? Hechavarria is a lot like one of your other favorites, Emilio Bonifacio, who has moved on to have quite the mediocre career (just traded for nothing not so long ago).

 

Perhaps Hechavarria is better than his defensive #'s. No one has ever said that defensive #'s are perfect. They're flawed, but at the same time, I see no reason to fully ignore them. And while we're at it, while defensive #'s are far from perfect, offensive #'s are pretty accurate. Hechavarria's offensive #'s pretty much put him in a category of: "he has to be Ozzie Smith defensively to have any type of relevant value because he can't hit for s***."

 

You seem to defend defensive, toolsy players who can't hit a lot more than solid offensive players with no position. I don't know why that is, but you have a history of doing that. Maybe because sh*tty offensive players are written about more on here, and you like to be the contrarian at all times. It seems like you only post on here now to critique other members of the board.

 

 

 

 

I don't have now, nor have in the past, had any favorite. But I will defend those that are being exaggerated against. I'll do that quite often. Just going by what has been reported on about him from many more than just his coaches. The only thing I have agreed with is that I do believe he is getting fatigued right now.

 

But yea. I do like defensive players. It's what this team is supposed to be built on. "Pitching, defense, and speed." It's why this ball park was built in it's current configuration. When they want to bring the fences in and start building an offensive minded team, then I'll start looking at things differently.

 

 

 

 

That's working out really well.

He's our new John Baker. Remember when John Baker used to hit and you used to hate him?

 

 

Never hated anybody. In Baker's case, I always said he had a nice bat but was terrible at defense. Nothing more. Not many agreed openly with that.....Until he was gone.

 

 

What's the difference between what you used to say about Baker (or Gaby Sanchez) and what I'm saying about Hechavarria? Hechavarria is a lot like one of your other favorites, Emilio Bonifacio, who has moved on to have quite the mediocre career (just traded for nothing not so long ago).

 

Perhaps Hechavarria is better than his defensive #'s. No one has ever said that defensive #'s are perfect. They're flawed, but at the same time, I see no reason to fully ignore them. And while we're at it, while defensive #'s are far from perfect, offensive #'s are pretty accurate. Hechavarria's offensive #'s pretty much put him in a category of: "he has to be Ozzie Smith defensively to have any type of relevant value because he can't hit for s***."

 

You seem to defend defensive, toolsy players who can't hit a lot more than solid offensive players with no position. I don't know why that is, but you have a history of doing that. Maybe because sh*tty offensive players are written about more on here, and you like to be the contrarian at all times. It seems like you only post on here now to critique other members of the board.

 

 

 

I would like to see MLB Network or ESPN do a special in which they show many defensive plays and then show on the screen how the various “advanced� defensive stats rated each play.

 

I have very little faith on the “advanced� defensive stats but such a show maybe would sway my mind a bit if I agreed with the ratings.

=========================

Another thing… to your credit you admit that offensive stats are far more accurate than defensive stats.. I don't ever recall reading a saber guy acknowledging this very obvious fact.

5.5 games out of last!

 

And we lost today, while the Astros are winning! Miracle run!

This will be the most excited I've been over Marlins September baseball in 10 years. I have faith.