If Robert Dugger can play well down the stretch then it might be possible that the players the Marlins acquired will finish with a higher WAR total than guys traded this year on 3 of the 5 big trades (Ozuna, Gordon, and Stanton deals). That is really crazy especially when you consider the fact that there is at least 1 player from each of those trades who has not even debuted and Dugger will still qualify as a rookie going into next year. 

 

Pretty amazing since the Marlins lost every trade since Jeter took over...

 

 

Yeah I'm already convinced we've won (or at least "didn't lose" those three trades because we got enough back even if the guy traded has done well too)... but I'd be curious to know what the Mariners Cardinals and Yankees fans would say about those trades in hindsight now. 

 

 

We obviously won the cardinals and mariners trades. We won the yankees trade so far more so because of the offloaded salary and Stanton's injuries rather than Castros WAR. Phillies trade looks decent so far, too early to tell. Yelich trade may be considered the worst in franchise history when all is said and done.

 

 

We obviously won the cardinals and mariners trades. We won the yankees trade so far more so because of the offloaded salary and Stanton's injuries rather than Castros WAR. Phillies trade looks decent so far, too early to tell. Yelich trade may be considered the worst in franchise history when all is said and done.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. I was trying to think of our worst trades in franchise history and it is tough to think of one that could be worse than the Yelich one may end up.

 

 

Calling the Yelich trade the worst in history is already a stretch... it's not like it was Yelich for Brinson straight up. We still have high hopes that Monte, Isan, and Yamamoto can all contribute at the big league level. Way too soon to write that trade off considering 3 of the 4 guys are meant to contribute to this team down the line. 

 

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. I was trying to think of our worst trades in franchise history and it is tough to think of one that could be worse than the Yelich one may end up.

 

 

 

Calling the Yelich trade the worst in history is already a stretch... it's not like it was Yelich for Brinson straight up. We still have high hopes that Monte, Isan, and Yamamoto can all contribute at the big league level. Way too soon to write that trade off considering 3 of the 4 guys are meant to contribute to this team down the line. 

 

I'll agree on both points. As of now I still say the Cabrera trade is still the worst in franchise history because none of the acquired players helped US, and we basically gave up Andrew Miller for nothing before he became a top tier reliever. The Yelich one just looks awful right now, but if at least one of those players pans out, then it's already better than the Cabrera trade.

 

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. I was trying to think of our worst trades in franchise history and it is tough to think of one that could be worse than the Yelich one may end up.

 

Dude I’m sorry but there’s NO way that this trade even comes close to the Cabrera trade. They traded a first ballot hall of famer and NONE of those pieces worked for us. Mike Rabelo was useless, maybin has proven he was never anything but a fourth outfielder, Miller apparently didn’t speak the language of marlins coaches cause he blew up as soon as he left, and the only piece that ended up contributing even slightly was Burke Badenhop. So yeah the Yelich trade is tough but I think we’ll at least pull off one GOOD big leaguer from that bunch (I’m betting on Isan, he just needs time to develop confidence at that plate and adjust to the league.) and that’s fine considering Yelich was literally begging to be traded so it’s not like keeping him was an option

 

 

I clearly said "could" and "in the end". I didn't declare it the worst trade ever and I didn't even say I consider it a loss yet.

 

It is definitely fair to say the Miggy deal will remain the worst even if none of the Yelich-return players pan out, but it isn't that far off anyway. Yelich is possibly a HOF'er in the making himself.

 

I haven't given up on Harrison, Diaz and Yamamoto yet.

 

 

Calling the Yelich trade the worst in history is already a stretch... it's not like it was Yelich for Brinson straight up. We still have high hopes that Monte, Isan, and Yamamoto can all contribute at the big league level. Way too soon to write that trade off considering 3 of the 4 guys are meant to contribute to this team down the line. 

 

Harrison, Diaz and Yamamoto would have to produce pretty insane WAR #’s for the Yelich trade to not be the worst in Marlins history. 

 

How confident are you frat those three will produce insane WAR #’s (based on their projections)?

 

 

Harrison, Diaz and Yamamoto would have to produce pretty insane WAR #’s for the Yelich trade to not be the worst in Marlins history. 

 

No, it would still be the Cabrera trade.

 

 

Harrison, Diaz and Yamamoto would have to produce pretty insane WAR #’s for the Yelich trade to not be the worst in Marlins history. 

 

How confident are you frat those three will produce insane WAR #’s (based on their projections)?

 

Yelich has put up an average of 7.35 (rWAR) to 7.65 (fWAR) per year in Milwaukee. Suppose we assume that he gets even better and puts up 8 WAR per year over the 5 years of control the Brewers have then he would put up a WAR of 40. Between Diaz, Yams, and Monte, the Marlins would have 17 years of team control I think. That comes out to an average of 2.35. According to fangraphs.com, that would be a solid albeit less than all star level player. Those are hardly insane numbers for them to have to put up.

 

 

Harrison, Diaz and Yamamoto would have to produce pretty insane WAR #’s for the Yelich trade to not be the worst in Marlins history. 

 

How confident are you frat those three will produce insane WAR #’s (based on their projections)?

 

Does everything have to be statistical?

 

Mike Rabelo, Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, and the other guy (De La Cruz? Trahern? Or was it both?) barely did anything for the Florida Marlins... if Isan Diaz and Monte Harrison are in our lineup for years to come then that's enough to not make the trade the worst. 

 

I think too many people want the Yelich return to match Christian's potentially two MVP seasons but I don't think that's a fair way to analyze if the Marlins got a good return. But if you wanna do it that way then yeah sure go ahead and label it the worst trade ever but that's lame. 

 

 

if Isan Diaz and Monte Harrison are in our lineup for years to come then that's enough to not make the trade the worst. 

 

For sure.

 

 

(De La Cruz? Trahern? Or was it both?)

 

Both!

 

 

If the Yelich trade has to be judged by the Marlins return equaling or exceeded Yelich's WAR then it's virtually impossible for the Marlins to ever win that trade and I don't think that would be a fair thing to say as 3 (if not all 4) of the players could still achieve their original intent of being longterm contributors to the next good Marlins team. If they do that then I think the Marlins will have done well in the Yelich trade despite possibly not match Yelich's WAR.

 

I'll give you a similar example... did Ugueth Urbina ever match Adrian Gonzalez's WAR? Because I don't think he did but for anyone to say the Marlins lost that trade, which ultimately helped seal their 2003 championship, would be completely asinine. 

 

 

There were a lot of “ifs” in response to my post.  

 

I’ve said this before but, if my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle. 

 

A LOT of “ifs” have to happen for the Yelich trade not to be a train wreck. 

 

 

There were a lot of “ifs” in response to my post.  

 

I’ve said this before but, if my aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle. 

 

A LOT of “ifs” have to happen for the Yelich trade not to be a train wreck. 

 

The chances of Diaz Harrison Yamamoto and/or Brinson contributing to a future successful Marlins team are a lot higher than the chances of your aunt suddenly growing testicles though. 

 

At the very least you'll have to let the careers of those four men gather a lot more seasons before making a final judgment on the Yelich trade though. With everything I've said though I can still admit that the Yelich trade seems tough to swallow today but I have a problem with it being labeled "worst trade in Marlins history" before those players are allowed to show what they can do.

 

This is like planting seeds, sprinkling some water on them, and then immedietaly staring at the dirt and proclaiming that the plants will never grow. 

 

 

your aunt suddenly growing testicles

 

 

 

We obviously won the cardinals and mariners trades. We won the yankees trade so far more so because of the offloaded salary and Stanton's injuries rather than Castros WAR. Phillies trade looks decent so far, too early to tell. Yelich trade may be considered the worst in franchise history when all is said and done.

 

I dont know, the Miguel Cabrera trade was pretty fucking bad.

 

 

If the Yelich trade has to be judged by the Marlins return equaling or exceeded Yelich's WAR then it's virtually impossible for the Marlins to ever win that trade and I don't think that would be a fair thing to say as 3 (if not all 4) of the players could still achieve their original intent of being longterm contributors to the next good Marlins team. If they do that then I think the Marlins will have done well in the Yelich trade despite possibly not match Yelich's WAR.

 

I'll give you a similar example... did Ugueth Urbina ever match Adrian Gonzalez's WAR? Because I don't think he did but for anyone to say the Marlins lost that trade, which ultimately helped seal their 2003 championship, would be completely asinine. 

 

I agree with this point. For this reason I feel like trades should be evaluated separately for each team. It is definitely a win for the Brewers since they likely would have missed the playoffs last year or just been a one and out wild card team without him. However, just because it is a win for them does not make it a loss for the Marlins. As for the other 3 trades, the Mariners and Cardinals failed to make the playoffs last year and Yankees likely make the playoffs last year and especially this year without Stanton.

 

However none of those players would have made any difference on the Marlins so the trades should be evaluated on what the new guys do with the Marlins rather than what the old ones COULD have done with the Marlins.

 

 

I agree with this point. For this reason I feel like trades should be evaluated separately for each team. It is definitely a win for the Brewers since they likely would have missed the playoffs last year or just been a one and out wild card team without him. However, just because it is a win for them does not make it a loss for the Marlins. As for the other 3 trades, the Mariners and Cardinals failed to make the playoffs last year and Yankees likely make the playoffs last year and especially this year without Stanton.

 

However none of those players would have made any difference on the Marlins so the trades should be evaluated on what the new guys do with the Marlins rather than what the old ones COULD have done with the Marlins.

 

Goal for the Cardinals was to make the playoffs with Ozuna on the roster.

 

Finish the deal (this weekend didnt help) and its a win for the Cardinals at least as far as their main goals were.  They dont miss Sierra.

 

They were going to make Sandy a reliever.  Gallan is probably still toiling away in AAA for the Cardinals.  The good thing is that the Cardinals are real good at developing pitching, proven time and again.

 

 

Goal for the Cardinals was to make the playoffs with Ozuna on the roster.

 

Finish the deal (this weekend didnt help) and its a win for the Cardinals at least as far as their main goals were.  They dont miss Sierra.

 

They were going to make Sandy a reliever.  Gallan is probably still toiling away in AAA for the Cardinals.  The good thing is that the Cardinals are real good at developing pitching, proven time and again.

 

Still, Ozuna is not the reason the Cardinals are in this position. He moved the needle a bit, but clearly not as much as Cardinal fans would have hoped. It is because of the aforementioned pitching depth.

 

 

Still, Ozuna is not the reason the Cardinals are in this position He moved the needle a bit, but clearly not as much as Cardinal fans would have hoped. It is because of the aforementioned pitching depth.

 

eh, Ozuna is a large reason they are in the position they are in.

 

 

eh, Ozuna is a large reason they are in the position they are in.

 

On July 12th the Cardinals were 44-45. They were still in the division hunt being 3.0 GB because neither Chicago or Milwaukee were playing particularly well. The reason they are in their current spot is because they have gone 39-20 since. Due to injury Ozuna was not a part of that until August 3rd. Since August 3rd, Ozuna has a wRC+ of 103. This means he has only been 3% better than league average. In fact he has been absolutely terrible in September (about as bad as Brinson- arguably worse) when they need him the most. BTW, since July 12th, the Cardinals have been 25-14 with Ozuna (.641 win%) and 14-6 (.700 win%) without so they have actually been better without him.

 

 

On July 12th the Cardinals were 44-45. They were still in the division hunt being 3.0 GB because neither Chicago or Milwaukee were playing particularly well. The reason they are in their current spot is because they have gone 39-20 since. Due to injury Ozuna was not a part of that until August 3rd. Since August 3rd, Ozuna has a wRC+ of 103. This means he has only been 3% better than league average. In fact he has been absolutely terrible in September (about as bad as Brinson- arguably worse) when they need him the most. BTW, since July 12th, the Cardinals have been 25-14 with Ozuna (.641 win%) and 14-6 (.700 win%) without so they have actually been better without him.

 

I watch the Cardinals regularly.  I follow the Cardinals.  

 

The Cardinals would not be where they are without Marcell Ozuna.  He gives the Marlins a presence in the lineup.  The Cardinals rise can also be traced to Matt Carpenter being hurt and then finally benched and Dexter Fowler being moved to the 1 slot.  

 

Stats are not the end all be all.  They never have, they never will.  

 

There are many, many other factors that arent on the stat sheet that go into winning baseball.