Wild Card

Let me make one thing clear, I never said Cishek is as valuable as Shields and I never said the team isnt better if we give up one for the other. I just don't think Cishek is as replaceable as some may believe. He's the most consistent closer in franchise history and if we can't lock down games that's gonna be a problem. Especially considering we don't have many trade assets to acquire someone.

Are you guys really trying to say it's better to not have a good closer and not having a good closer equates to a better chance at the post season?

ichiro would be our 1st asian player since... Did the invisible man slug him in the face with a right cross?

not to mention if Cishek's replacement flopped they've got a half-dozen other guys they can try in the role. Hell if they're still in the running once Jose comes back they could even use someone like Koehler or Phelps. Or acquire someone at the trade deadline. How many playoff teams are hosting tryouts for their closer role during the season?

The Marlins should just keep Cishek and spend the money to get Shields. That makes this a non issue. This is my point. Its about time the Marlins get a free agent or two without having to cut corners to get it done.Exactly. Moving Cishek to acquire Shields doesn't make the team that much better. It also defeats the purpose of free agency, might as well make a trade. Adding Shields without subtracting would make the team much better. Moving Cishek to acquire Shields makes the team MUCH better. 210 innings of Shields and 65 innings of someone like Capps (plus trade assets for Cishek), is better than 275 innings of Cishek, and the SP options of Phelps, Hands, Nicolino, Williams, Vagabond FA SP, etc. This is assuming the best case scenario for Cishek's replacement. What happens if, say, Capps like you proposed pitches like he did in Seattle and can't close a door? Or he loses another couple months with elbow trouble and Ramos falters under the pressure? Everyone says closers are so replaceable, and they are to an extent. But what happens when the alternatives fail? Then you wasted that great 7+ inning start by your man Shields because you couldn't protect him and that 2-run lead. It's a great idea in theory, but this is why the closer role exists. Because it's just not that easy.

The Marlins should just keep Cishek and spend the money to get Shields. That makes this a non issue. This is my point. Its about time the Marlins get a free agent or two without having to cut corners to get it done. Exactly. Moving Cishek to acquire Shields doesn't make the team that much better. It also defeats the purpose of free agency, might as well make a trade. Adding Shields without subtracting would make the team much better.

The Marlins should just keep Cishek and spend the money to get Shields. That makes this a non issue.

Shields will be 33 next season. 4/75 with option is way more than I'd like to see the Marlins spend. I agree with this as well. Three years would really be ideal. Hell, Jake Peavy and two years really sounded great, but three years of Shields is fine.

Lou, you're always giving second to none insight... But Cishek isn't being traded. Disney recently released a big hit, "Let it go".

I would assume they absolutely will at the very least inquire.

Padres were fifth, then Washington, KC, Pittsburgh and us at #1. That's all reverse order fyi. So us with Yelich, Ozuna, Stanton. Pittsburgh with Marte, McCutchen, Polanco. KC with Gordon, Cain/Dyson, Aoki/Cain. Washington with Harper, Span, Werth. San Diego with Upton, Kemp, Myers. Yeah, I'll take us at #1, thanks. That San Diego outfield though... good lord. Upton is streaky, Kemp is often injured and Myers is coming off an injury. Jury is currently out. This. San Diego certainly has a lot of potential, but just as many question marks.

If Haren values staying next to his family, he should have sought a NTC and taken less money for it. I don't like how he can just decide to not honor his part of the deal (playing). Yea this. I don't get how a guy without a NTC and without that 10-5 rights can suddenly pressure his team into this corner. It just reeks of selfishness. It's exactly as Hotcorner said. His only leverage is that he can retire, and the Marlins likely don't care if he does. In fact they might even be betting on it. If he doesn't retire, he has no choice in the matter. Not that you want a cancer in your clubhouse, but Giancarlo was unhappy once upon a time...

The thing you guys don't get is he has made his decision. He said he is retiring or playing in southern cal. he isn't deliberating whether he is playing here or not. Actually he's not saying that anymore He said his preference is to play in the West but he did not rule out pitching for the Marlins according to the Sun-Sentinel. YEA SO THERE TAKE THAT!

I'm so sick of Harens shit. Grow up already. If it bothers you so much then just retire and stop dicking everyone around. I don't think it is him needing to grow up. The marlins knew of this and decided to trade for him anyway. HE can want to be with his family. That shouldn't be an issue. The marlins are dumb if they were counting on him to pitch for them or all of a sudden change his mind about only wanting to pitch in southern california. He isn't dicking anyone around.I disagree. It's a business, he's a veteran. He should make a decision and be done with it. Have you ever seen another player create a situation like this before and drag it out for weeks? It's kind of ridiculous. Weeks... No. Years. Yes. See Favre, Brett Who is a top 5 quarterback in NFL history. It was annoying nonetheless, but at least Favre was an elite player.

I don't really disagree about Phelps, although saying a pitcher will improve going from Yankee stadium to marlins park is not a stretch or bold prediction. Just enjoy pointing out your extreme lack of baseball knowledge. Pointing out my extreme lack of baseball knowledge? You literally, in the same paragraph, just pointed out something I said that displays some sort of baseball knowledge. In the post of mine that you chose to use as your example for "my lack if baseball knowledge", what is it that I said that was so far fetched? You just agreed with me about Phelps, so what was it? I think we are all interested to hear why you're so smart. It really showed no baseball knowledge so much as stating the obvious, and it goes against statements you made in the past(e.g., your refusal to acknowledge that playing in Fenway was advantageous to Satlalamacchia and how he was almost guaranteed to regress moving to a pitcher-friendly park). dude no offense, shut up. We get it you two don't like each other. Ignore each other then. Im sick of it and I'm sure everyone else is you just going after his baseball knowledge in every single thread. Grow up and realize you aren't going to agree with everything everyone says. Stop going after each other for every little thing each other says. Nobody cares anymore and its annoying to have every thread somehow turn into you two arguing about who is smarter. you both sound like curmudgeonly losers arguing about who is smarter on an internet forum. It's more defense on my end. I can't control the fact that he's a fucking dick.

Hey fish14, are you Dan Haren? No but you can't act like Dan Haren is a bad guy in this situation when the marlins knew before they traded for him that he only wanted to pitch in southern cal. You can say the marlins are fucked in trade negotiations for haren because teams know he doesnt want to be here but that isn't Harens fault. If the marlins thought they were going to convince him to pitch here they are stupid. I just think its dumb to say Dan Haren is "dicking us around" when he made his decision before he was even traded here. I don't think the Marlins assumed he would pitch. I think they assumed he would retire and they'd get a free $10M. That's why they included one or two prospects that they shouldn't have.

I'm so sick of Harens shit. Grow up already. If it bothers you so much then just retire and stop dicking everyone around. I don't think it is him needing to grow up. The marlins knew of this and decided to trade for him anyway. HE can want to be with his family. That shouldn't be an issue. The marlins are dumb if they were counting on him to pitch for them or all of a sudden change his mind about only wanting to pitch in southern california. He isn't dicking anyone around. I disagree. It's a business, he's a veteran. He should make a decision and be done with it. Have you ever seen another player create a situation like this before and drag it out for weeks? It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm no so down on hech anymore tbh. He's come around offensively and defensive metrics aren't good enough for me to buy that he's that bad. Plus, its not like he doesn't have the athleticism to improve in the field. I think the next few seasons he will show he's better. Not good but improved over what we've seen. Wut. He did improve by 100 OPS last season from the previous, but his line was still terrible. It just says more about how embarrassingly awful his 2013 season was. His peripherals did not change all that much, which suggests that a lot of it is BABIP driven (though his 2013 line was low). His LD% rate increased a bit so he might be making slightly better contact now. So he's likely a better player than he was in 2013, but hasn't really "come around" yet. He went from -1.9 WAR to .6 WAR in his second full season thanks to his bat (BABIP was a little high). That's a big improvement (from shit to barely above replacement, yes). But I really don't think he is as bad defensively as the metrics suggest. He can also improve defensively by not screwing up routine plays. I think he breaks 1 WAR in 2015. I'm OK with that. I can agree with this. The big positive about Hech is his athleticism, we all see it, and we all know he's talented. Hopefully he continues to improve. Some guys just develop more slowly than others.

I don't really disagree about Phelps, although saying a pitcher will improve going from Yankee stadium to marlins park is not a stretch or bold prediction. Just enjoy pointing out your extreme lack of baseball knowledge. Pointing out my extreme lack of baseball knowledge? You literally, in the same paragraph, just pointed out something I said that displays some sort of baseball knowledge. In the post of mine that you chose to use as your example for "my lack if baseball knowledge", what is it that I said that was so far fetched? You just agreed with me about Phelps, so what was it? I think we are all interested to hear why you're so smart.

So Polly and song agree with me. And spike doesn't. I like my side of the fence. You know, where we need children's books I guess.

I don't know how you guys don't include bonds. I'd love to seeing happen, he'd be my first vote. Unfortunately nobody else seems to agree.

Phelps is going to make a nice transition from Yankee Stadium and the AL East and will be quite a bit better than most of you have in mind. Koehler and Cosart can regress and we can still be good. The key for this rotation is HEALTH, not talent. If they stay healthy this team will make the post season. If not, you're counting on Hand (who's not the worst but a wild card) and Nicolino (complete wild card) to get you there. Shields would be a great acquisition and it allows us the depth to make certain we're competitive. But if they stay healthy and stand pat we should be fine.

I still can't believe Piazza wasn't a first ballot HOFer.

Bonifacio can play all all INF positions and can play CF if Yelich needs time off. DD should be getting reps in AAA. You say that like we have Bonifacio. And marlins09, Middlebrooks can't hit. It's been on display for two years now. I will take Dietrich over him every time right now.Middlebrooks has outproduced DD in every aspect and level in his career. Dietrich has a career sub .700 OPS in the majors. He hasn't proven anything in the big leagues. Not to mention he's played less than 10 professional games at 3B. Middlebrooks lit it up in 75 games in 2012 and despite battling injuries the last 2 years, still managed a better year in 2013 than Dietrich has put together in his career. Your argument is comical and clueless. I'm guessing you are one of "those guys" on this board.What career stats are you looking at? DD's career OPS is .694 in the worst hitters park in baseball. Middlebrooks is .695 in one of the best hitters parks. So Middlebrooks has outproduced Dietrich by next to nothing. Basing your argument on the 75 games he had three years ago is what's comical. DD is trending upward and improving while Middlebrooks has forgotten how to swing a bat. My argument is comical? Your defense and Will Middlebrooks offense are comical.You consider him battling through injuries moving downward? That's fair, but don't say he forgot how to hit. I'll let the upcoming season do the talking for me since this is a topic that doesn't matter and has no end. You don't just forget how to hit at 26 years old. Not to mention you didn't comment on the fact DD has 3 games at 3BFor the record DD has also battled injuries the last two years and has still outproduced Middlebrooks in a pitchers park. Middlebrooks is a right handed LoMo with less talent. I would take a lomo level production offensively at 3B with plus defense for DD all day. Not to mention a guy that has shown he can hit at both levels. Not a guy that you think can hit at this level. Why do you keep bringing up third basemen? We have a 2-5 WAR player at third base. We have zero need for a third baseman.

Bonifacio can play all all INF positions and can play CF if Yelich needs time off. DD should be getting reps in AAA. You say that like we have Bonifacio. And marlins09, Middlebrooks can't hit. It's been on display for two years now. I will take Dietrich over him every time right now.Middlebrooks has outproduced DD in every aspect and level in his career. Dietrich has a career sub .700 OPS in the majors. He hasn't proven anything in the big leagues. Not to mention he's played less than 10 professional games at 3B. Middlebrooks lit it up in 75 games in 2012 and despite battling injuries the last 2 years, still managed a better year in 2013 than Dietrich has put together in his career. Your argument is comical and clueless. I'm guessing you are one of "those guys" on this board.What career stats are you looking at? DD's career OPS is .694 in the worst hitters park in baseball. Middlebrooks is .695 in one of the best hitters parks. So Middlebrooks has outproduced Dietrich by next to nothing. Basing your argument on the 75 games he had three years ago is what's comical. DD is trending upward and improving while Middlebrooks has forgotten how to swing a bat. My argument is comical? Your defense and Will Middlebrooks offense are comical.You consider him battling through injuries moving downward? That's fair, but don't say he forgot how to hit. I'll let the upcoming season do the talking for me since this is a topic that doesn't matter and has no end. You don't just forget how to hit at 26 years old. Not to mention you didn't comment on the fact DD has 3 games at 3B For the record DD has also battled injuries the last two years and has still outproduced Middlebrooks in a pitchers park. Middlebrooks is a right handed LoMo with less talent.