uberschnell

is that a joke? best 1/2 punch in baseball? lindstrom will never be anything more then an erratic set up man. Nunez better not be on the move but he shouldnt be a closer either actually no that isnt a joke. just because u cant see the potential doesnt mean i dont. ive seen games where lindstrom has looked great closing the 9th and also seen leo look really good as well. if they can learn from their mistakes i do think they can be a pretty a nasty 8th and 9th inning shutdown pitchers. Matt Lindstrom will be 30 next year and only has one consistent pitch, a straight as a nail fastball. Wow...tell us something that we don't know? His first 2 years in the league were pretty consistent. Makes you wonder if something might have been wrong during the 2009 season...oh yeah he had a strained shoulder at the first of the year and an inflamed elbow half way through. This probably had something to do with his unorthodox year...just a guess. Not really. Yeah really. "pretty consistent" was the phrase you misinterpreted...happens a lot with you.

is that a joke? best 1/2 punch in baseball? lindstrom will never be anything more then an erratic set up man. Nunez better not be on the move but he shouldnt be a closer either actually no that isnt a joke. just because u cant see the potential doesnt mean i dont. ive seen games where lindstrom has looked great closing the 9th and also seen leo look really good as well. if they can learn from their mistakes i do think they can be a pretty a nasty 8th and 9th inning shutdown pitchers. Matt Lindstrom will be 30 next year and only has one consistent pitch, a straight as a nail fastball. Wow...tell us something that we don't know? His first 2 years in the league were pretty consistent. Makes you wonder if something might have been wrong during the 2009 season...oh yeah he had a strained shoulder at the first of the year and an inflamed elbow half way through. This probably had something to do with his unorthodox year...just a guess.

He's not someone I would classify as a potentially great pitcher who just needs "kinks" worked out. He doesn't have good enough secondary pitches and becomes too reliant on his fastball. Even if coaches do work on his command to prevent him from walking a baserunner or two in the bottom of the ninth, his fastball is still incredibly hittable. Lindstrom and Nunez are the two most expendable arms in the bullpen as far as I'm concerned. The only "kinks" that need to be worked out is him being healthy and participating in a full spring training. Can't throw secondary pitches very effectively if your arm isn't 100%. Every time he threw a breaking pitch he would feel a pinch in his elbow. An MRI, just 2 weeks ago, revealed an inflammed elbow with no structural damage to the tendons. The injury was a combination of lifting heavy weights and never being 100% from the WBC (in other words no spring training). His secondary pitches are good enough...he just doesn't throw them consistently. Can you be the most expendable posters on this forum? You should become just a little bit more narrow minded. I'm with Miller23...give him another year and see what happens. If not, there are 29 other teams that would love to have his arm. Hell, he might even get a pitching coach and a manager that believe in him too.

Would be great if both would leave. Would be a dream come true...just show em the door.

Horrible starting pitching we lose There seems a common thread throughout a good part of the staff that hasn't improved markedly during the season - walking lead off guys, walking pitchers, the inability get ahead or throw first pitch strikes or playing a role in keeping baserunners from stealing at will. I'm not saying it happens all the time or exaggerate its frequency but it seems to me it's not necessarily a talent issue as it "may" be a coaching issue. Specifically Wiley (this isn't an anti-Wiley rant BTW) but I wonder if it goes deeper and is more pervasive in the organization? I don't know the answer but it will interesting to see if he's still has his job come spring. FWIW fire the bumb, he sucks. (Now don't everyone read too much into this, it is just my opinion....thanks)

The '65 Twins are a good example of how different things were back then. The Twins had 32 complete games and starters generally went deeper into games, so there were far fewer (about 200 fewer) relief innings pitched. The closest thing to what's now called a "closer" was a "fireman," a guy you could rely on to put out a fire or at least prevent one from getting out of control,no matter what the inning. The Twins had two. One was Al Worthington. 62 games, 80 IP, 2.13 ERA, 1.22 WHIP. Baseball Reference credits him with 21 saves, even though there was no such thing at the time. The other really reliable reliever they had was Johnny Klippstein, almost Worthington's statistical twin. 56 games, 76 IP, 2.24 ERA, 1.18 WHIP. 5 saves. They had 3 other solid guys who cranked out another 160 relief innings. You never knew who would get the call, but if a fire needed putting out, it was usually Worthington or Klippstein because they were the best pitchers in the pen. Other than that, "roles" were pretty much nonexistent. Thanks for the lesson.

I'm not quoting Rab's word as truth, I'm just giving him credit for pointing it out before I did. And I think anyone with knowledge of baseball history would know that the make-up of pitching staffs has changed greatly over time, but here's an example of an article anyway: http://thedugoutdoct...en-in-baseball/ Google is still free to use. And can you please respond to the content of my post instead of attacking Rab or Erick? Really? Thanks bud. Yes. I see where you are coming from....try and see where I am coming from. I talk to Lindstrom regularly and last night when they were driving to the airport to fly to Atlanta he and Pinto were talking about roles. Nobody knows when they are going in to pitch, thus it is hard to hurry and get ready once called upon. It is like a pop quiz in school, instead of the teacher telling you exactly when the and quiz will be. Which quiz is easier to study and prepare for the one you know about or the one that is announced right before you take it? Right, the one you know is coming....that's all I'm trying to point out whether you agree or disagree it's cool, whatever.

Rab and Erik I apologize for my sardonic comments. Thanks in advance.

Oh, I forgot RAB and ERIK know everything so just a warning to everyone on the board. If you happen to want to post something make sure you look up every statistic known to man before you post, otherwise you will be wrong. To RAB and Erik: Don't say that it's "relatively new" or that "it's very wrong" without some type of proof. You 2 are stat junkies so provide some stats or articles that say it's relatively new or very wrong because right now it's your opinion opposing mine.

Seriously, what is this "roles" bullcrap? These aren't elemntary school children who need routines. They are paid professional athletes. Their roles are getting outs, period. When the manager says warm up, you warm up, and you go in the game and try to do do your job and get outs. Another severely overrated aspect of management. :thumbdown

Seriously, what is this "roles" bullcrap? These aren't elemntary school children who need routines. They are paid professional athletes. Their roles are getting outs, period. When the manager says warm up, you warm up, and you go in the game and try to do do your job and get outs. Another severely overrated aspect of management. Oh, I don't know it's just the way the game has been played ever since it was invented. Do you think Rivera, Papelbon, and Nathan have roles? Have you ever seen them pitch in the 8th inning? Unless the 8th inning guy is in trouble and they pitch to get a 4 run save then yeah, but this doesn't happen a lot. This role bullcrap is so you don't have to question when you are going in. Believe it or not a little preparation helps when you go in and pitch. Elementary school children and routines; that's a good one. When is the last time you saw a elementary school kid have a routine?

Yeah let Donnelly close and then when he sucks throw Kiko in there. Mix it up even worse so even more bullpen guys don't know their roles. Fredi is the worst bullpen manager in the game. No one in the bullpen knows when they are going in whether it be in the 6th 7th 8th or 9th. Fredi or the FO, I don't know who decides, should find out who they want as their closer and let him do it for the next 6 games. Whether it's Kiko, Nunez, or Donnelly.

Didn't he give up a run in the 8th vs the Mets? That didn't help us win that game. How about, I don't know, the guy with the 1.89 ERA and a 1.088 WHIP all year, Kiko Calero? It's ridiculous that we've had someone who's been so dominant and he's been used so poorly all year. I'm not saying you're wrong with disagreeing with him as closer (although he's outpitched Leo and Lindstrom, too)... But are you seriously blaming him for that run in the 8th on Friday? Dan Uggla error on a routine groundball from catcher Brian Schneider Angel Pagan, bunt hit. Castillo sac bunt. Then with men at 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, Donnelly K's Wright only to have a Paulino passed ball bring in a run. With 2 outs and a man at 3rd, Donnelly K'd a tough hitter, in Beltran. If ever there was an unearned run, it was Donnelly's on Friday night. "I feel like we've played really good defense this year," Uggla added." This is a funny quote coming from Uggla.

BTW, there were 39,031 fans tonight. It wasn't a Super Saturday and we outnumbered Met fans. That's a great sign. That is in itself a victory.

I was at the game, great atmosphere, first marlins vs mets games that I truly felt we outnumbered met fans by a lot. Really deflating loss. I witnessed and participated in the longest wave ever at a Marlins game. Even though it was a tough one to swallow this has been a great season. I agree. I thought it was going to be the regular Mets stuff but those were mostly Marlins fans cheering for our team. When the wave started and Ricky had a nice inning, the crowd was as loud as I've ever heard it at a Fish game. It was awesome, despite the loss. X3, Hanley's home run was crazy, one shot and we were already back in the game. The wave was cool I gotta admit. But losing the game that we should've and easily could've one still bugs me. Leo has done this way too often late this season. We've gotta find ourselves an older, semi established closer next year in free agency if we want to compete. I think the starting pitching needs to get better. The bullpen wasn't even close to the problem, in fact they saved us in a lot of ways....eating a ton of innings and saving the leads. I think with a full spring training and establishing an offspeed pitch in the offseason that Lindstrom could be that closer.

Lindstrom will be better next year regardless of how bad he did this year. He will be better either with the Marlins or on another team. The way he got Gregged this year makes me think they are going to get rid of him....rightfully so. The WBC and no spring training along with injuries hurt him....literally. He is the last option in the bullpen. When Donnelly was struggling he was throwing, but Brian Sanchez was warming up when Nunez was sucking. They should just send Lindstrom home and quit wasting his time.

Wow...Uggla makes an error on a routine play. And people try and convince me that Uggla is good. His high OPS hardly makes up for his defense.....IMO.

Everyone must be at the game tonight huh?

Closers role overrated How does that prove that it isn't? If it had been Lidge in the 8th and he blew the game then, would it matter? A bad pitcher is a bad pitcher. Oh, I don't know Rab because he blew the save and lost the game when they should have won. He didn't pitch the 8th so it doesn't matter. Just goes to show you that perfection one year doesn't equal perfection the next....could that mean that players are human? Either way good win and the closers role wasn't overrated tonight, that is if you were a phillies fan. A bad pitcher is a bad pitcher, it had nothing to do with the closer role being overrated or not. You don't think they could have won if they had put in someone besides the worst guy in the pen this year? All this proved is don't put a sh*tty pitcher in when the game is on the line, not that the closer's role isn't overrated. This. He has been bad!

Closers role overrated It is. And this kind of proves why there aren't so many closers worth the money. Closers...they rise and fall each and every year. Bro you know I threw that up for you.

Closers role overrated :lol How does that prove that it isn't? If it had been Lidge in the 8th and he blew the game then, would it matter? A bad pitcher is a bad pitcher. Oh, I don't know Rab because he blew the save and lost the game when they should have won. He didn't pitch the 8th so it doesn't matter. Just goes to show you that perfection one year doesn't equal perfection the next....could that mean that players are human? Either way good win and the closers role wasn't overrated tonight, that is if you were a phillies fan.

Closers role overrated :lol

Well, stats prove you wrong. He may not be good defensively, but he's not horrible. Again, just because he didn't play very well for Lindstrom doesn't mean he sucks. Stats completely prove you wrong when it comes to his offense, though. You actually think because he can't hit for average, he sucks? Who gives a sh!t about his average. He gets on base at a decent clip, and he's good for 30+ HRs a year. That is a pretty good second baseman. Maybe even a Top 5 second Baseman. I'm not trying to changhe your opinion. We know we can't. What I'm trying to do is prove how stupid it is. Yeah who cares about that. That gives no indication of how many times he's failed (who knows it could of been with men in scoring position too) when the team needed him to come through. Still waiting for you to prove my opinion stupid. Look this can go on for the rest of the season. I will agree that Uggla is pretty good and not horrible. You agree that his defense is below average....done.

I don't have any idea what you guys are arguing about. Fish of the Game is an opinion, obviously. Erick thought Fredi was "flawless" last night, and he thought he was the most valuable Fish of the Game. He also noted that he rarely agrees with all of Fredi's moves in a game, which he did last night. Whatever Erick has said in the past, about feeling he's capable of being a big-league manager or otherwise, has no bearing on that in any way. It seems, more than anything, that you are trying to incite Erick. Not saying you are, but that's how it comes off. I would love to see Erik manage a game, I think he would do pretty good. I mean how hard could it be getting the scouting reports on guys and make an educated guess? No brainer type decisions just like Fredi did last night.

How did it not change your opinion? You are wrong if you think Dan Uggla is poor defensively. He is an average defender with a very good AB. Just because he misplayed some balls when Lindstrom was pitching doesn't mean he is a terrible player out to get Lindstrom. Yeah you didn't change it either....nice try. I watch the games and IMO he can't go left or right to save his life. If the ball isn't hit right at him there is a good chance he doesn't make the play. bolded: he is good at hitting the long ball and his OPS is good because of walks and homeruns....not because of average. Look this is my opinion. I' not trying to change yours, I'm just telling you what I've seen.