I don't want F-Rod, we've addressed the bullpen and I think it'll be fine as it is. We've already spent too much money on it.

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Exactly. If the team is going to improve the offense, WHICH IT HAS TOO for us to win, we need Enc's contract and roster spot off the books. Dellucci and Gibbons don't want to come here to compete for a starting job. No one better than Dellucci (who is only slightly-better than Enc anyway) will come here for what's been offered.

These are the freaking Yankees, tell them to eat Enc's contract or they can't have Burnett. If that doesn't work, throw in an overrated prospect like Stokes or Miller. Or have them eat the bulk of another offensive player (Giambi?) to send here.

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So, how exactly does trading Encarnacion and freeing up his whopping $4 million help the offense?

 

As you said, no one we can get at that salary will be better than Encarnacion.

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Four plus four equals eight, does it not?

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Yeah, which is what we're going to be on the hook for to Javy. Or, if you want to say that we're just going to give him the money we offered Pavano, we have to pay Odalis somehow, the most we're going to be left with after we reshape the rotation is $4 million.

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Burnett (4), Encarnacion (4.5) for Vazquez (3.5-5). OK, so you were right. Until you add the current offer to Dellucci (3-4). Making a total of $7-9 to spend elsewhere.

 

Who knows if these numbers are right? After spending over $10 million on Leiter, Jones and Six Fingers I don't know where the Marlins stand payroll-wise. But I don't think they made that offer to Dellucci two weeks ago knowing that the Yankees would come calling after Wright failed his physical, Arizona making an effort to keep Randy, Boston signing Wells and Burnett acted like an ass (OK, maybe that last one).

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I think the Yanks will throw in another 5 million if we instead choose to pass on Felix, but I really doubt that they would trade Navarro and give up 5 million dollars (Enc) for Stokes...

 

And the freed up money won't help us immensely, we can't offer multi-year deals to anybody that matters offensively and forking over alot for Perez and Clement is overkill when our offense isn't all that great.

I think the Yanks will throw in another 5 million if we instead choose to pass on Felix, but I really doubt that they would trade Navarro and give up 5 million dollars (Enc) for Stokes...

 

And the freed up money won't help us immensely, we can't offer multi-year deals to anybody that matters offensively and forking over alot for Perez and Clement is overkill when our offense isn't all that great.

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Why can't you offer anyone a multi-year deal? With Burnett off the team and LoDuca likely to re-sign for 2 years (ugh), there's really no one else to spend that Hampton's millions nexy year.

 

I'm okay with a cheap Bump/Howard/Wayne/Valdez/Darren Oliver-type 5th starter, I'm sure others aren't. I wasn't completly convinced when considering Beckett and Burnett's health, but with one out of the way and Leiter there to train with Beckett and help Willis those 150 innings aren't quite as important as upgrading the offense.

This is what i hate. How could the Marlins even Consider touching Burnett.

 

Beckett or Burnett should stay in this organization for a long time. They both have great talent.

 

There will be no Rotation without them two.

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If only you didn't wear the AJ glasses, you'd see. There is life beyond Burnett, think of the team. I wouldn't like it - but I could adjust to it. BTW: It's supposely 4 years - 39 million for Pavy.

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Vazquez will be the same. There will be no improvement.

I think the Yanks will throw in another 5 million if we instead choose to pass on Felix, but I really doubt that they would trade Navarro and give up 5 million dollars (Enc) for Stokes...

 

And the freed up money won't help us immensely, we can't offer multi-year deals to anybody that matters offensively and forking over alot for Perez and Clement is overkill when our offense isn't all that great.

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Why can't you offer anyone a multi-year deal? With Burnett off the team and LoDuca likely to re-sign for 2 years (ugh), there's really no one else to spend that Hampton's millions nexy year.

 

I'm okay with a cheap Bump/Howard/Wayne/Valdez/Darren Oliver-type 5th starter, I'm sure others aren't. I wasn't completly convinced when considering Beckett and Burnett's health, but with one out of the way and Leiter there to train with Beckett and help Willis those 150 innings aren't quite as important as upgrading the offense.

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Vazquez is going to make 34 million the next three years, even if the Yanks gave us 15 million, that's still 19 million for 3 years, a little over 6 a season not (3.5 - 5) unless you are working under a different hypothetical.

 

We'd come out 2 million on top for next season about if we went along with the deal. But then when you consider we already have Vazuez tied down for the next two seasons, I don't see why you'd be so optimistic we'd go after a big name guy with a multi-year deal.

 

I'd like the deal because Vazquez at 6 - 6.5 a year would be a steal, and we'd be assured that we had a very capable front of the line starter for a decent period of time. Burnett however is a different story. It'd almost seem like we'd have to outbid everyone else to get his services back, I'm sure he'd bolt for NY, Boston, or LA even if the Fish matched the offer.

 

If we sign Dellucci for 2 - 2.5 a season for two years or so, our payroll would be the same. We have Vazquez and Dellucci as oppose to Burnett and Encarnacion. Sure we'd have Vazquez at a cheap price for two more years while Burnett would probably fetch a bit more while having proved less but in no way does Encarnacion need to be included to make that happen. I'm not an Enc fan, but trading him without trading LoDuca doesn't make much difference. It shouldn't make or break this deal.

 

My stance is, yes on the trade and no it shouldn't have be tied to Encarnacion. The money you'll save in the trade won't nearly be enough to get a legit power hitter that will help this team immensely especially because it looks like LoDuca is here for good.

This is what i hate. How could the Marlins even Consider touching Burnett.

 

Beckett or Burnett should stay in this organization for a long time. They both have great talent.

 

There will be no Rotation without them two.

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If only you didn't wear the AJ glasses, you'd see. There is life beyond Burnett, think of the team. I wouldn't like it - but I could adjust to it. BTW: It's supposely 4 years - 39 million for Pavy.

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Vazquez will be the same. There will be no improvement.

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He'd probably come cheaper and he'd come guaranteed to pitch 3 seasons for us.

But do we want a pitcher for 3+ seasons under contract that had a disasterous year last year? If we trade and Vasquez looks just like he did in 2004 we will look like morons and have a big contract that will be hard to move. There will be better offers for AJ than Vasquez I would think.

Just did some payroll calculations.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Low Medium High
LoDuca ? ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ?5.5 ?7
Conine ? ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ?4 ? ?4.7 ?- conflicting reports
Castillo	5 ? ? ?5.3 ?5.5
Lowell ? ? ? ? ?8.5 ? ?8.5 ?8.5
Gonzalez ? ? ? ?3.4 ? ?3.4 ?3.4
Cabrera ? ? ? ? ?.4 ? ? .5 ? .7
Pierre ? ? ? ? ?3.4 ? ?3.7 ?3.9 ?- factors in potential bonuses
Encarnacion ? ? 2.5 ? ?4.5 ?4.5 ?- Dodgers sent $2M last year, who knows where that went
Harris ? ? ? ? ? .4 ? ? .4 ? .5
Easley ? ? ? ? ? .7 ? ? .8 ? .8
Aguila ? ? ? ? ? .3 ? ? .4 ? .4
Treanor/Willing ?.3 ? ? .4 ? .4
Burnett ? ? ? ? 2.5 ? ?3.5 ?4
Leiter ? ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ?3 ? ?7
Beckett ? ? ? ? 2.5 ? ?3.5 ?4.5
Willis ? ? ? ? ? .4 ? ? .5 ? .7
Mota ? ? ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ?2.5 ?2.7
Spooneybarger ? ?.3 ? ? .4 ? .4
Alfonseca ? ? ? 2 ? ? ?2 ? ?2.3
Jones ? ? ? ? ? 1.1 ? ?1.1 ?1.1
Bump ? ? ? ? ? ? .3 ? ? .4 ? .4
Howard ? ? ? ? ? .3 ? ? .4 ? .4
Gracesqui ? ? ? ?.3 ? ? .3 ? .4
----------
             43.3   52.5 61.5
Hampton-Pudge ?54.3 ? 63.5 72.5

Perez ? ? ? ? ? 6 ? ? ?7 ? ?8
Dellucci ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ?3.5 ?4
Felix Rodriguez 3.5 ? ?3.5 ?3.5
Halsey ? ? ? ? ? .3 ? ? .3 ? .4
Vazquez ? ? ? ? 3.5 ? ?6 ? ?8
Magglio ? ? ? ? 7 ? ? ?8 ? ?8
Valdez ? ? ? ? ? .9 ? ?1.2 ?1.5
Avg backup OF ? ?.4 ? ? .7 ?1
Avg 5th/spot SP ?.4 ? ? .7 ?1.3
Avg LOOGY ? ? ? ?.3 ? ? .5 ?1

Hmm, not as bad as I thought. Probably best to ignore the low and high figures given Conine, Leiter and Encarnacion's contracts.

 

There was a report by the Sun-Sentinel by an unnamed official related to a National League club that the Marlins payroll will be $70M in 2005. If true, we're looking pretty good. $7 million for a 5th starter, outfield bat and lefty specialist.

 

This changes things. Although I still think it would be best for the Marlins to get immediate help (and more money under the payroll to use) for Burnett than draft picks next year. No reason to fear the unknown (who will play outfield? Start?) when our current options are not helping the team.

The Marlins and Yankees have discussed swapping Javier Vazquez and A.J. Burnett.

 

The Yankees would have to throw in a lot of cash to make this one work. Burnett is at least as good of a bet as Vazquez for next year, so the only reason the Marlins would make the swap is if they thought it would save them some money over the next few years. If the trade happens, Burnett might then be moved on to Arizona in a Randy Johnson trade.

 

 

 

rotoworld

The Marlins and Yankees have discussed swapping Javier Vazquez and A.J. Burnett.

 

The Yankees would have to throw in a lot of cash to make this one work. Burnett is at least as good of a bet as Vazquez for next year, so the only reason the Marlins would make the swap is if they thought it would save them some money over the next few years. If the trade happens, Burnett might then be moved on to Arizona in a Randy Johnson trade.

 

 

 

rotoworld

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Mr. Beinfest - Ask for this:

AJ for Vazquez, cash and Dioner Navarro

I just don't know where I stand on this.

 

I loathe being a pawn in the Yankees dealings just to get the Big Unit.

 

But I suppose swapping AJ for Vazquez, 10+ million, and some prospects/players isn't the worst thing ever. I don't think it would be well received locally, or by the media in general, save those who point to "payroll flexibility".

 

AJ just has Cy Young ceiling in my opinion though, losing him would be really disappointing. I think Javy's a good pitcher but last season does not sit well with me.

I've seen Millwood mentioned but I've heard that Atlanta is going sign him soon

I just don't know where I stand on this.

 

I loathe being a pawn in the Yankees dealings just to get the Big Unit.

 

But I suppose swapping AJ for Vazquez, 10+ million, and some prospects/players isn't the worst thing ever. I don't think it would be well received locally, or by the media in general, save those who point to "payroll flexibility".

 

AJ just has Cy Young ceiling in my opinion though, losing him would be really disappointing. I think Javy's a good pitcher but last season does not sit well with me.

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The Fish really have all the leverage here. The Yanks desperately want Burnett, since the D'Backs don't want Javy. Although with Arizona's newest signings Vazquez might not mind being in Arizona. Vazquez had three good seasons in Montreal, is the same age as Burnett, hasn't had TJ surgery, and he could come cheap, and he'd be guaranteed to play for us for 3 years.

 

Burnett has made it known that he'd love to play for a place like NY, Boston or LA, he would leave Miami price-equal to go almost anywhere else. We would have to outbid alot of higher-market teams to retain his services for the future.

 

Honestly, I can see why people wouldn't want to part with AJ because they are fans of his, but why is there more homerism for AJ than players like Lowell, Castillo, and Pierre just boggles my mind (not implying you are, just saying from alot of the responses).

Well people wouldnt want to trade AJ, because he could be a CY young winner at any year now, and all those mention wont be winning any such award, with the exception of Lowell who is the face of the marlins i could see how they can be traded with little opposition from the fans. But the marlins have being bragging for years about their "young guns" and all of a sudden you lose 3/5 of that in less than year and it wont be recieve well by the fans.

agreed Cobaincola... I have a lot more homerism for someone like Lowell actually.

 

But I don't think Lowell's a future MVP, while I think a CY is not out of reach for AJ.

 

Still, I can stomach a deal like this if there's enough coming back to Florida.

 

As long as our rotation as a whole stays strong, I'm happy.

agreed Cobaincola... I have a lot more homerism for someone like Lowell actually.

 

But I don't think Lowell's a future MVP, while I think a CY is not out of reach for AJ.

 

Still, I can stomach a deal like this if there's enough coming back to Florida.

 

As long as our rotation as a whole stays strong, I'm happy.

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yea, me too Lowell for me is the marlins when you think marlins you think of Lowell.

if dealing AJ we get a Vazquez for around 4-6 million a year for the remainder of his contract plus a player we would be set

 

it wouldnt be too bad at all

 

yeah AJ has Cy-Young potential but we dont knwo how much he would ask next year or if he is even down to come back. so id rather get an affordable Vazquez (who is not bad WHATSOEVER) for a total of $15-18 million for the next 3 years than have AJ for one, or pay him $20-30 million for an extra 3 or 4 years

Remember that Vasquez has a right to demand a trade at the end of this year if he is traded.

I would absolutely hate watching A.J put up huge numbers in the Bronx... Vasquez is a good pitcher, but I really think A.J is destined for greatness.

I would absolutely hate watching A.J put up huge numbers in the Bronx... Vasquez is a good pitcher, but I really think A.J is destined for greatness.

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He wouldn't be doing that....

 

He'd be doing it in Arizona, so you get to see him up close about 5 times a year.

I would absolutely hate watching A.J put up huge numbers in the Bronx... Vasquez is a good pitcher, but I really think A.J is destined for greatness.

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While I agree that AJ has a chance to be great, I wouldn't underestimate Vasquez. One bad year in NY doesn't mean he won't recapture his success from his Montreal days at some point.

I'd hate to see A.J put up big numbers anywhere. And again, I think Vasquez is a good pitcher that can have a lot of success, but I think A.J is capable of having a better career in the long run.

I don't think the question is about if AJ is better than Vaz. Its all about the $$$. After this year AJ will probably follow Carl, they are best friends and he will want big time money. If Carl says he is loving NY guess where AJ will go.

 

This is about getting what Beinfest can get now. The idea apparently is, get someone who is at least a very solid pitcher who will be costly, but managable for a few years and plug up the bullpen with the other players we get and not have to worry about signing AJ next year so we can go out and get a bat.

I think we all know by now that as soon as A.J.'s contract is done he's outta here...i say we trade him for Vasquez and as much cash as we can sqeeze out of G.S. so we dont end up with anything...Vazquez had a bad season but he is a hell of a pitcher and is still very young...Mr.Burnett all ready had T.J. surgey and has not shut up all off-season talking bad about the F.O. and about how bad the fans are down here in S.FLa....i say get rid of him now...

The thing a lot of people forget was that Vazquez was pretty good the first half of the season. He was even an all star I think. To me I get the feeling that this may spur another team to come in and maybe offer a little something more AJ.

Its not Vaz was bad at any point last year, he just got caught up in some bad games. He started that 22-0 Clevland debacle, he was blown out by the Saux a few times. Looking at his game logs its either he would be solid 7 innings 3 runs or less, or he was blown up and about 7 runs in 4 innings. Kinda Willis esque is you ask me.