ESPN Insider Article by Buster Olney

 

Girardi a Fish out of water?

posted: Sunday, August 27, 2006 | Feedback | Print Entry

 

Jeffrey Loria won't say whether Joe Girardi will be the manager in 2007, and the spoken credit he gave went to the baseball operations, rather than the skipper, which only fuels the perception that Girardi may not be back after this season.

 

Girardi is a manager of the year candidate, but a front office source tells David Hyde some of the personnel moves Girardi wanted to make, and they are not good.

 

I don't know who David's source is, but between this story and others -- here's another from today, from the New York Post -- that have appeared weeks, it is evident that there are folks in the Florida organization who are trying to torpedo Girardi. This kind of info is not leaked unless somebody is actively attempting to alter the landscape, and regardless of whether Girardi is great or overrated, this kind of situation cannot last.

 

Either the differences have to be hashed out or Girardi needs to move on, and because Loria -- once Girardi's patron saint in the organization -- is the referee, you have to think there is a better than 50-50 chance that the manager is going to be fired.

 

Marlins, Part II

 

Catcher Matt Treanor said on Saturday that fans in South Florida "should be ashamed of themselves" for not showing up in droves to the Marlins' games this year.

 

I baked bagels during my college years, first at the Bagel Stop in West Lebanon, N.H., and then at the Nashville Bagel Company, on West End in Nashville. Business was pretty slow at times. Look, I was much better at baking and delivery than at dealing with customers over the counter (To this day, I can't stand lox), but I can say, unequivocally, that standing out in front of the stores and telling those who passed by that they should be ashamed of themselves for not buying our bagels would not have been a good business move.

 

Plus, I would've looked like an idiot standing out there, with raisins smeared on my smock.

 

Coming up with a more enticing product is probably a better business strategy.

 

Fans are not obligated to buy tickets; teams are not entitled to have thousands of people laying out hundreds of dollars to watch them play. You come up with a product that people want to see, and they'll pay. The reasons for fans not showing up at Marlins games began compiling long before Treanor became part of the organization.

 

Treanor has had a good year, but his words may rank among the most ill-chosen of the season. What a way to win over hearts and minds.

 

 

Article had these supporting links

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-hyd...rts-front\

here is a quote from the above article :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

Right from spring, there have been clashes over future-looking questions in a season in which the future is primary.

 

For instance, back in spring training, according to two Marlins sources, here's some changes Girardi pushed for: Miguel Cabrera from third to first base; Dan Uggla not at second base but in left field; Josh Willingham at catcher, not Miguel Olivo; Alfredo Amezaga might not have made the team; and young pitchers like Ricky Nolasco and Josh Johnson would have started in the minor leagues.

 

Whew.

 

Pick your own reason to worry what might have been.

 

http://www.nypost.com/sports/the_rumble_sports_.htm

NY Post Article

August 27, 2006 -- 'Shut up' to owner sealed his fate

A well-embedded Rumble mole tells us that Joe Girardi will be fired as Marlins manager at the end of the season. His likely replacement will be Braves third-base coach Fredi Gonzalez.

 

Loria, who yesterday refused to endorse the job his rookie manager has done this season, is fed up with Girardi over two incidents:

 

Girardi griped to club officials earlier in the summer that Loria did not belong in the clubhouse. When the owner found out, he was furious.

 

When Loria stood up near the Florida dugout and began screaming at an umpire over balls and strikes three weeks ago, Girardi turned around from the dugout and bellowed, "Sit down and shut up!!" Management had to talk the owner out of firing Girardi.

 

Girardi, a former Cubs catcher, has his eyes on the Chicago job when Dusty Baker is likely canned after the season.

 

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/basebal...-sports-marlins

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/conte...loria_0827.html

yes and if Giradi had gotten his way, you would of had a pissed of Miguel Cabrera, no Mike Jacobs, a worse pitching staff, amazaga would of been not here which would of cost a few wins. (Reggie all year!), Willingham at C would be good for fantasy owners is about it.

 

Be interesting to see what happens

I don't believe these stories...even as a guy who dislikes Girardi, I find it hard to swallow that he wanted to play Miggy at 1B...someone is just trying to make him look retarded. Girardi may have made a lot of bonehead decisions...but Miggy at 1B?!?! Who did he want to play 3B?

Id trade girardi for dusty if these rumors are true.

I don't believe these stories...even as a guy who dislikes Girardi, I find it hard to swallow that he wanted to play Miggy at 1B...someone is just trying to make him look retarded. Girardi may have made a lot of bonehead decisions...but Miggy at 1B?!?! Who did he want to play 3B?

 

There were various stories last season and this spring about Miggy having a 1st baseman's mitt and taking practice there, and the Miggy at first thing has been talked about here from time to time. When you think of Miggy's level of conditionng early on, it might not have been the worst idea, but at the same time, if there were two guys going into April you wanted content in their roles on this team, it was Willis and Cabrera.

 

As long we keep getting half of any part of the story, from either camp, which is what's happening here, I don't see how anyone can intelligently come to a conclusion about what is really at play here. And any time Dave Hyde is your source, OMG be careful.

I'm tired of the general media making Girardi out to be this great manager because our team is exceeding their miguided, uneducated pre-season expectations for our team. Anyone who predicted a 60 win season obviously did not evaluate the talent on this team, but looked solely at our less-than-stellar payroll. I'm not getting into whether Girardi is a great manager or not. I've made my position crystal clear already. I judge a team's manager by his in-game management, and not by the overall record of the team, or by the sound bytes of its current players.

 

Notwithstanding, I'm willing to accept wagers from anyone who believes that our record will decline next year (we will lose more games) if Girardi leaves.

 

 

 

 

 

Your not going out on a limb very far by predicting the team will win more games next year without Girardi.

 

Hmmm.....lets see, everyone will have more big league experience, a real CF will be brought in and an arm or two will be brought in to shore up the bullpen.

Well, if everyone thinks he deserves all this credit for winning games, I think it is going out on a limb to suggest we'll win more games next year with anyone else as manager. And BTW, there is no guarantee we bring in a real CFer or an arm or two to sure up the bullpen.

 

How about 5 games??

 

 

 

 

 

Lets wait till the season (regular season :mischief2 ) ends and then we'll discuss.

 

I'll give you action but right now I'm leaning towards the under on 7.5 more wins.

Sounds like Loria has had a productive weekend...First according to our "sources" on this board he killed a deal in Miami for a New Stadium on Friday. Next on Saturday he wants to kick out the Manager that has us 4 games out of the Wild Card Lead, and maybe more impressively than that just 4 games below .500 - Had I asked any of you what the chances of that were back in April most of us would have stated not likely. Have any of you had as productive of a weekend as Loria has? I hate to see what the 3rd strike will be on Sunday :mischief2

I recommend that the Jeffrey Loria not talk to the press if he is going to damn Girardi with faint praise. I also recommend Loria tighten up the leaks being put out there by his employees.

 

Like it or not, Girardi is on his way to winning the NL Manager of the Year Award. It is bad enough that we will be firing the likely Manager of the Year (PRwise), but it is just makes the Marlins look bad when they try to embarass Girardi continually.

 

Are they trying to get him to launch into a tirade to the press about the FO stabbing him in the back so they have just cause to fire him rather than just over some petty squabble? I am beginning to suspect that is the reason, but they better not hold their breath if they are waiting for that. Better to just hold their tongues.

 

Like Ramp said in another thread, this distracts from the great late season run the Marlins are putting together. They are on the verge of finally reaching .500, 4 games out of the WC race in late August and breaking or tying old records left and right. Those should be the stories, not this garbage.

I'm just curious '03, is there any journalist that you don't have a problem with?

A boss must be able to trust and respect the work of his employees. If that is not possible, the company's goals will be compromised. I know a good man of you like Girardi and throw Loria under the bus any moment you can, but one owns the club and the other merely has a contract. It is up to BOTH of them to work things out and if they can't, you know which one will not be a Marlin next year. That said, I don't think these and other leaks to the press help the situation. This may be damage control by Loria and staff to discredit Girardi's role if the case they can not work things out (perhaps there hasn't been adequate progress in one's mind) or Girardi wishes to leave for greener pastures.

 

 

 

 

Loria, without Girardi the Marlins would still be the laughing stock of MLB, moreso than the Royals. Grow the f*** up.

 

I think deep down inside, Loria is actually disappointed the Marlins are doing so well. Kind of like in Major League how that female owner or whatever wanted her team to do bad so she could get more money and move the team.

 

 

you are so clueless. loria would never make as much money in san antonio or portland with a market the size of south florida PERIOD.

 

im not convinced girardi deserves that much credit. all these guys the marlins fo gathered were very good prospects in their former teams. id give a ton of credit to the FO before giving it to girardi.

Get off Loria's nutsack and open your eyes.

 

Fiscally speaking for Loria's own wallet, the Marlins with a stadium in a smaller market > Marlins with no stadium in South Florida. Period.

 

The only reason we're not the San Antonio Desperados or the Portland Felons is because they wouldn't give Loria a free stadium. If they did, our team would be packing it's bags right now.

 

san antonio was ready to put a measure on the ballot that would have given loria a stadium at a relatively low cost. the reason the marlins arent packing their bags is because hialeah came up and mlb really wants a franchise down here. see: backdoor negotiations with city of miami without consent of the marlins

 

the marlins might have threatened to move, but it was never going to happen. countless teams have made similar threats and gotten stadiums

 

going back to your original point, i dont see why loria would want the team to lose. low attendance or 120 losses wasnt going to get mlb to accept a move. if anything it give mlb the reason to throw loria out of the owner's club. so i still dont see the point of your original post. but w/e ignorance is bliss....

1. San Antonio/Bexar wasn't making much progress. They were many steps away. Same as Dade County unfortunetly.

2. Absolutly true.

3. Excellent point. Loria has a investment in the club and he profits when the franchise does well. His decisions he makes are in his and the club's best interests. Unfortunetly at times those decisions are simply the best of two evils, and fans ignorant of the circumstances question the owners' commitment to making the club successful.

I'm just curious '03, is there any journalist that you don't have a problem with?

 

Hundreds if not thousands.

 

In fact in another thread I praised Capozzi. And generally I like Olney's work and Jason Stark's and even LeBatard's because I understand he's a columnist and not a reporter.

A boss must be able to trust and respect the work of his employees. If that is not possible, the company's goals will be compromised. I know a good man of you like Girardi and throw Loria under the bus any moment you can, but one owns the club and the other merely has a contract. It is up to BOTH of them to work things out and if they can't, you know which one will not be a Marlin next year. That said, I don't think these and other leaks to the press help the situation. This may be damage control by Loria and staff to discredit Girardi's role if the case they can not work things out (perhaps there hasn't been adequate progress in one's mind) or Girardi wishes to leave for greener pastures.

 

 

I have long suspected the Marlins leaks about supposed boneheaded moves Girardi wanted to make were either damage control (for now after the squabble between him and Loria and later when he is fired) or trying to induce Girardi to quit or get himself fired. I am leaning a lot more toward the latter at this point. Loria was ill advised if he was told it would be a good idea to put out these leaks now. They are doing a lot more damage than good to the Marlins image. Girardi has been somewhat of a media darling and a front runner to win a Manager of the Year award. Loria and the Marlins FO just need to hunker down at this point and weather this out since they will just be adding more fuel to the fire now.

I'm tired of the general media making Girardi out to be this great manager because our team is exceeding their miguided, uneducated pre-season expectations for our team. Anyone who predicted a 60 win season obviously did not evaluate the talent on this team, but looked solely at our less-than-stellar payroll. I'm not getting into whether Girardi is a great manager or not. I've made my position crystal clear already. I judge a team's manager by his in-game management, and not by the overall record of the team, or by the sound bytes of its current players.

 

Notwithstanding, I'm willing to accept wagers from anyone who believes that our record will decline next year (we will lose more games) if Girardi leaves.

 

 

 

 

 

Your not going out on a limb very far by predicting the team will win more games next year without Girardi.

 

Hmmm.....lets see, everyone will have more big league experience, a real CF will be brought in and an arm or two will be brought in to shore up the bullpen.

Well, if everyone thinks he deserves all this credit for winning games, I think it is going out on a limb to suggest we'll win more games next year with anyone else as manager. And BTW, there is no guarantee we bring in a real CFer or an arm or two to sure up the bullpen.

 

How about 5 games??

 

 

 

 

 

Lets wait till the season (regular season :mischief2 ) ends and then we'll discuss.

 

I'll give you action but right now I'm leaning towards the under on 7.5 more wins.

Wait a minute...you think the marlins will win 7.5 more games next year...without knoing ANY personnel moves...and no matter who replaces Girardi???? Exactly how wany games do you think we'll win if we add a CFer, 2 bullpen arms and keep Girardi (who you think is phenomenal)??? 100, right?

I'm just curious '03, is there any journalist that you don't have a problem with?

 

Hundreds if not thousands.

 

In fact in another thread I praised Capozzi. And generally I like Olney's work and Jason Stark's and even LeBatard's because I understand he's a columnist and not a reporter.

:thumbup I wasn't trying to be snide, but just wanted to know.

I think Girardi had done a great job, but thats not to say that if we didn't have any other manager we wouldn't be doing this well. There is no way to know that...

 

 

I do know that the Marlins front office is like a mafia, Sampson and Loria can do no wrong in the others eye. Regardless of how Sampson f***ed up the situation w/ the city and county Loria refuses to replace him w/ a real negotiator to get this done. To add to what someone also mentioned earlier I definitly think Loria is irratated that Giaradi is getting all this praise...Loria wanted this season to a shitstorm so that he would have more leverage w/ the city/state/county and it hasn't turned out that way.

 

I think this team has a great chance of making a run at the WC but I think that the FO and Loria def. don't want that...I mean their plan was to make this team terrible in the immediate future but still worth a sh*t so that they could compete as soon as they got the stadium. I don't see how Beinfest doesn't make a move for a RP or a CF, the team has quite a few games w/ the Phillies, Reds, Cards, etc. not making a move lends more credance to the idea that Loria wants a failure this year...

 

Loria surrounds himself with people he trusts. If Girardi's not one of those people, he obviously has no right to be part of the Florida Marlins.

 

But I don't get your conspiracy theories. How does the team doing poorly help him with local politicians? Why would local politicians be more willing to align themselves with a weak and unpopular entity? Makes no sense. Those in positions of power to do things know the situation. They know the Marlins are in a poor financial situation at the Huizenga-owned Dolphins Stadium regardless of record, manager or weather.

 

And why do you assume that because you see something and the team doesn't follow up on it means that they're opposed to it. Perhaps they just don't share your conclusions. Perhaps they thought the price was too high. That it would disrupt their ability to win a World Series (their #1 stated goal) in the future to acquire a CF or reliever (for whom the price was high after the Reds-Nats trade) for then a slim chance at the wild card. They've kept Willis and Cabrera (even making them unavailable for teams to enquire about them during the final days of the July trade deadline). They were rumored to be looking at some outfielders and pitchers. In the end, they didn't pull the deal. Don't be a brat. Just because you want something and Mommy and Daddy didn't give it you, doesn't mean they hate you.

 

Wait a minute...you think the marlins will win 7.5 more games next year...without knoing ANY personnel moves...and no matter who replaces Girardi???? Exactly how wany games do you think we'll win if we add a CFer, 2 bullpen arms and keep Girardi (who you think is phenomenal)??? 100, right?

 

Young players typically get better with experience

Nice time for Treanor to say those things....does he think he's as good as Mike Redmond? Well he's a solid backup but at the same time, he's lucky to be an MLB baseball player.

Let him go...we'll be fine. We had maybe three or four people who even wanted this job last year...I'm fairly certain candidates will be lining up for the job with all our talent.

 

 

 

Exxxxxxx....actly! :thumbup

Let him go...we'll be fine. We had maybe three or four people who even wanted this job last year...I'm fairly certain candidates will be lining up for the job with all our talent.

 

 

 

Exxxxxxx....actly! :thumbup

I think this has more to do with Loria being a prick, than about if someone could possibly do a better job

Let him go...we'll be fine. We had maybe three or four people who even wanted this job last year...I'm fairly certain candidates will be lining up for the job with all our talent.

 

 

 

Exxxxxxx....actly! :thumbup

I think this has more to do with Loria being a prick, than about if someone could possibly do a better job

 

 

Ramp, short and sweet and right on the button.

I think Girardi had done a great job, but thats not to say that if we didn't have any other manager we wouldn't be doing this well. There is no way to know that...

 

 

I do know that the Marlins front office is like a mafia, Sampson and Loria can do no wrong in the others eye. Regardless of how Sampson f***ed up the situation w/ the city and county Loria refuses to replace him w/ a real negotiator to get this done. To add to what someone also mentioned earlier I definitly think Loria is irratated that Giaradi is getting all this praise...Loria wanted this season to a shitstorm so that he would have more leverage w/ the city/state/county and it hasn't turned out that way.

 

I think this team has a great chance of making a run at the WC but I think that the FO and Loria def. don't want that...I mean their plan was to make this team terrible in the immediate future but still worth a sh*t so that they could compete as soon as they got the stadium. I don't see how Beinfest doesn't make a move for a RP or a CF, the team has quite a few games w/ the Phillies, Reds, Cards, etc. not making a move lends more credance to the idea that Loria wants a failure this year...

 

Loria surrounds himself with people he trusts. If Girardi's not one of those people, he obviously has no right to be part of the Florida Marlins.

 

But I don't get your conspiracy theories. How does the team doing poorly help him with local politicians? Why would local politicians be more willing to align themselves with a weak and unpopular entity? Makes no sense. Those in positions of power to do things know the situation. They know the Marlins are in a poor financial situation at the Huizenga-owned Dolphins Stadium regardless of record, manager or weather.

 

And why do you assume that because you see something and the team doesn't follow up on it means that they're opposed to it. Perhaps they just don't share your conclusions. Perhaps they thought the price was too high. That it would disrupt their ability to win a World Series (their #1 stated goal) in the future to acquire a CF or reliever (for whom the price was high after the Reds-Nats trade) for then a slim chance at the wild card. They've kept Willis and Cabrera (even making them unavailable for teams to enquire about them during the final days of the July trade deadline). They were rumored to be looking at some outfielders and pitchers. In the end, they didn't pull the deal. Don't be a brat. Just because you want something and Mommy and Daddy didn't give it you, doesn't mean they hate you.

 

Wait a minute...you think the marlins will win 7.5 more games next year...without knoing ANY personnel moves...and no matter who replaces Girardi???? Exactly how wany games do you think we'll win if we add a CFer, 2 bullpen arms and keep Girardi (who you think is phenomenal)??? 100, right?

 

Young players typically get better with experience

 

I think Loria wanted to force the city/state into giving him the money he needed to bridge the gap. When he found out that wasn't goint to happen he dismantled the team citing fiscal concerns. I just think he thought that the shittier the team was the more leverage he'd have, I'm not saying that makes sense but it seemed to be their plan.

 

Also I don't think its being a brat to want my team to do well. I think they have a huge opp. and not making a move doesn't help them. They need to improve in certain areas. I do agree that maybe the price was to high at the deadline and we had just lost a handful of games to Philly. Things are different today and we are in a better position then we were then. The team should make a move even if its not for a started, they need to continue showing that they are trying to win. Yes that is their responsibility even if 20k fans aren't going every night.

I think this has more to do with Loria being a prick, than about if someone could possibly do a better job

I'm tired of the general media making Girardi out to be this great manager because our team is exceeding their miguided, uneducated pre-season expectations for our team. Anyone who predicted a 60 win season obviously did not evaluate the talent on this team, but looked solely at our less-than-stellar payroll. I'm not getting into whether Girardi is a great manager or not. I've made my position crystal clear already. I judge a team's manager by his in-game management, and not by the overall record of the team, or by the sound bytes of its current players.

 

Notwithstanding, I'm willing to accept wagers from anyone who believes that our record will decline next year (we will lose more games) if Girardi leaves.

 

 

 

 

 

Your not going out on a limb very far by predicting the team will win more games next year without Girardi.

 

Hmmm.....lets see, everyone will have more big league experience, a real CF will be brought in and an arm or two will be brought in to shore up the bullpen.

Well, if everyone thinks he deserves all this credit for winning games, I think it is going out on a limb to suggest we'll win more games next year with anyone else as manager. And BTW, there is no guarantee we bring in a real CFer or an arm or two to sure up the bullpen.

 

How about 5 games??

 

 

 

 

 

Lets wait till the season (regular season :mischief2 ) ends and then we'll discuss.

 

I'll give you action but right now I'm leaning towards the under on 7.5 more wins.

Wait a minute...you think the marlins will win 7.5 more games next year...without knoing ANY personnel moves...and no matter who replaces Girardi???? Exactly how wany games do you think we'll win if we add a CFer, 2 bullpen arms and keep Girardi (who you think is phenomenal)??? 100, right?

 

 

 

:plain

 

 

Read my post.

 

 

I said I'd take the UNDER on a 7.5 game improvement (translation- I think the marlins will not improve by more than 7 games next year)

Let him go...we'll be fine. We had maybe three or four people who even wanted this job last year...I'm fairly certain candidates will be lining up for the job with all our talent.

 

 

 

Exxxxxxx....actly! :thumbup

I think this has more to do with Loria being a prick, than about if someone could possibly do a better job

Yes, but if the end result is that we get a better manager, I have no problem with Loria canning Girardi. Loria may be a prick, but you don't publicly yell at your boss. It'll be interesting to see if Girardi ever coaches for the Yanks...I've never seen Torre EVER do that to his Boss...even with his ridiculous post-game comments and his general irrational demeanor. I thought when we hired Girardi we were getting a field General...someone who would demand respect and run a tight ship with our young troops...but not someone who chews out the President. I wanted Eisenhower...and we got Patton.

 

Let him go. Even with no compensation, I don't care. The Marlins job will be the HOTTEST managerial job in all of baseball next year, even more than the Cubs presumed vacancy. Youth...talent...and plenty of payroll flexibility with expectations that will not be much higher than wherever we finish (remember...the media credits Girardi about 100% for our current play). We'll be the first team to have two different managers win manager of the year consecutively.

can we trade Joe to the CWS for Ozzie?

Let him go...we'll be fine. We had maybe three or four people who even wanted this job last year...I'm fairly certain candidates will be lining up for the job with all our talent.

 

 

 

Exxxxxxx....actly! :thumbup

I think this has more to do with Loria being a prick, than about if someone could possibly do a better job

 

When teams/companies do that they end up hurting themselves. This will hurt the team more than it will hurt Girardi. Big companies does this all the time and it's stupid every time.