Trade Uggla? I'm against this team being eternally on rebuilding mode...If we want to have a legit shot at the division, we have to limit having so many rookies to start the season (one or two at the most). I'm OK with having Mabin in CF, but I don't want McPherson at the expense of Dan Uggla. It is time to win this damn division

Trade Uggla? I'm against this team being eternally on rebuilding mode...If we want to have a legit shot at the division, we have to limit having so many rookies to start the season (one or two at the most). I'm OK with having Mabin in CF, but I don't want McPherson at the expense of Dan Uggla. It is time to win this damn division

 

I think the marlins have proven you don't need overpaid 30yrolds to win. We aren't rebuilding. We already did that a while back. This is just getting the most from the players we can easily replace, and in the case of a few players, should replace. The team should be a little better next season, and just get continuously better for the next few years. It looks like the overall plan is really coming together. We will have a young stud team by the time the stadium is open (sooner even), and that's when payroll has been promised to increase. So not only will we have a great team, but we will be able to keep it. Who knows? Maybe Loria goes nuts and even adds to it, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

A $40 million dollar team only loses Gregg, Jacobs, and Willingham.

 

That would be, Loria going nuts to me.

Trade Uggla? I'm against this team being eternally on rebuilding mode...If we want to have a legit shot at the division, we have to limit having so many rookies to start the season (one or two at the most). I'm OK with having Mabin in CF, but I don't want McPherson at the expense of Dan Uggla. It is time to win this damn division

 

I think the marlins have proven you don't need overpaid 30yrolds to win. We aren't rebuilding. We already did that a while back. This is just getting the most from the players we can easily replace, and in the case of a few players, should replace. The team should be a little better next season, and just get continuously better for the next few years. It looks like the overall plan is really coming together. We will have a young stud team by the time the stadium is open (sooner even), and that's when payroll has been promised to increase. So not only will we have a great team, but we will be able to keep it. Who knows? Maybe Loria goes nuts and even adds to it, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The problem is with who might be traded. Jacobs is easily replacable, Uggla is not.

Cantu was the second worse defensive 3b in baseball this past season. He should not be playing consistantly at third again next season considering we have Dallas. 1st? Sure, he played great defense there. Lou's suggestion of playing Cantu 1st, Dallas 3rd against RHP, Gaby 1st, Cantu 3rd against LHP would definitely optimize the three players strengths and get the most out of the two posistions with what we already have.

 

And moving Cantu to second would be a very, very bad idea. His defense there is absolutely horrible and it's an even more important defensive posistion.

Plus as well as Cantu played this year Uggla still out ops'd him pretty handily, even as Dan's average dipped late in the season.

 

Hanley and Uggla up the middle with a Cantu/Dallas/Gaby platoon at 1st and 3rd sounds fantastic.

Parting with Uggla is a massive error.

 

 

I'm with you. Hang onto him Loria.

 

I'll third that.

Plus as well as Cantu played this year Uggla still out ops'd him pretty handily, even as Dan's average dipped late in the season.

 

Hanley and Uggla up the middle with a Cantu/Dallas/Gaby platoon at 1st and 3rd sounds fantastic.

This is absolutely the way to go on all levels. Offense, defense, payroll, player progression, other minor league depth, etc. Coghlan can live in AAA for a year. That's not going to hurt him. I still wouldn't be upset if Uggla got us a mega package, but I'd like to keep him for at least next year.

So it's four guys for two spots (2B/3B), right?

Uggla

PROS: good OBP, power, OPS for a second baseman

CONS: lots of Ks, average defensively, $4million or so

 

Cantu

PROS: decent offensive numbers

CONS: lots of Ks, poor at 3B, $5m or so

 

D-Mac

PROS: cheap, lefty, lots of power

CONS: lots of Ks, defense questionable

 

Coghlan

PROS: cheap, lefty, contact, OBP, speedy

CONS: not a lot of power, defensively??

 

 

Beinfest has been quoted:

1. reduce strikeouts--> All but CC strike out a hell of a lot. Edge: CC

2. improve defense--> None of the four are studs at defense, I don't believe. Edge: ?

 

If it comes down to keeping payroll down, as I suspect it may, CC and D-Mac are your starting 2B and 3B, and Cantu and Uggla are being traded to return value. I don't have a huge problem with that. Who was Cantu at this point last year? Who was D-Mac at this point last year? Beinfest will bring in another Cantu and D-Mac who they don't have to pay $4m and $5m to.

just for kicks Lou, (and I'm sure you've posted this elsewhere) when would you project some of our other top position players to be ready to join the team?

 

i.e., if Uggla were to depart before the 2010 season for example, could we also see the arrival of a Stanton, Morrison, etc? Because with some of the bats we appear to have lined up in the minors, letting Uggla go a year or two down the road would seem to be much less painful.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

 

it seems like the only reason is money and not to 1) reduce strikeouts and 2) improve defensively. This motive to "improve" is a bunch of baloney if McPherson is your everyday third baseman.

 

I do not see myself disliking these moves because I do not see this team able to compete in October with this type of offense. But I will not legitimize the moves under the theme of "improvement" if the players ushered in are not under this speed, defense, and pitching category.

 

As a previous poster mentioned, the only replacement that would decrease K's would be Coghlan and he is also subpar defensively. If Sanchez plays first, I see that as a move for improvement while also saving $$ because he is better defensively and hits for AVG and has a nice OBP.

 

And, IMO, this team is being built for 2011, regardless of whether or not Admin keeps saying we try to win every year. Winning is a bonus and a nice surprise, but this team is being built for the stadium and I am extremely excited for that team with all the players rising in our system.

 

Let's say Hermida blossoms and Hanley remains Hanley, a team of C-Skipworth, 1b- Gabby or one of the young of converted, 2b- Coghlan, 3b- Dominguez, Lf- Morrison or Stanton, and CF - Maybin... WOOOOW! oh yeah, and we have Raynor who is also solid.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

Trade Uggla? I'm against this team being eternally on rebuilding mode...If we want to have a legit shot at the division, we have to limit having so many rookies to start the season (one or two at the most). I'm OK with having Mabin in CF, but I don't want McPherson at the expense of Dan Uggla. It is time to win this damn division

 

:thumbup

 

Early favorite for next year's site slogan?

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

 

yea I realize that. I just disagree with the notion that somehow any equation that cuts costs and still ends up with McPherson at third is an improvement. He is more of the same we have grown accustomed to complaining about.

 

It boils down to money and that to me is a signal that again, this team willbegin a season with low expectations from its fans.

 

Marginal fans will have nothing to be excited about because we will lose every athlete we grow attached to. Its no secret that Carlos Delgado, although not a major superstar, put additional fannies in the seats because the expectations immediately went up.

 

We lack star power and that will not improve until2011. I will patiently await the arrival of the young players and until then, I will not consider this team a legitimate contender.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

 

yea I realize that. I just disagree with the notion that somehow any equation that cuts costs and still ends up with McPherson at third is an improvement. He is more of the same we have grown accustomed to complaining about.

 

It boils down to money and that to me is a signal that again, this team willbegin a season with low expectations from its fans.

 

Marginal fans will have nothing to be excited about because we will lose every athlete we grow attached to. Its no secret that Carlos Delgado, although not a major superstar, put additional fannies in the seats because the expectations immediately went up.

 

We lack star power and that will not improve until2011. I will patiently await the arrival of the young players and until then, I will not consider this team a legitimate contender.

 

 

 

Umm WHAT? If Hanley Ramirez is not a "star" I have no idea what is...

 

And why are you people so pessimistic? The team hasn't made a single move yet and you are already crying "FIRESALE".... geez.

 

They have made it clear that the moves they will make will be to improve this team in areas in which we need help... so stop acting like we are just doing things to cut salary.

Naive? Do you really think every single rookie is going to pan out? Do you really believe the aforementioned "possible" adjustments are dramatic improvements? No. I said in my comment that this team will gradually move toward the speed, pitching, and defense motto because frankly, not every position has a replacement waiting in the minors that is above average defensively, has speed, and hits for contact.

 

Hanley Ramirez is a star, but not of the magnitude of several other stars out there. He was also brought in as a rookie onto this team and I still believe he has not reached his potential. I also referenced Star Power... you can be a superb player but lack the aura to attract fannies. Delgado at the time of his acquisition was also not a star of that magnitude. Manny Ramirez fits the description more readily than Hanley.

 

That is star POWER. and having one guy that stays for more than two seasons to three seasons at a time is nothing to be excited about.

 

In addition, I do not recall having a season other than that Delgado year and 1997 where the players themselves, the media, and the fans truly believe that there was a possible division title at stake. That is why I do not believe this team will generate excitement until we make additions and not just additions by subtraction.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

 

yea I realize that. I just disagree with the notion that somehow any equation that cuts costs and still ends up with McPherson at third is an improvement. He is more of the same we have grown accustomed to complaining about.

 

It boils down to money and that to me is a signal that again, this team willbegin a season with low expectations from its fans.

 

Marginal fans will have nothing to be excited about because we will lose every athlete we grow attached to. Its no secret that Carlos Delgado, although not a major superstar, put additional fannies in the seats because the expectations immediately went up.

 

We lack star power and that will not improve until2011. I will patiently await the arrival of the young players and until then, I will not consider this team a legitimate contender.

I don't believe that's right. No one went anyway. That's the issue. When fans go and the team makes money, then they'll spend. They tried the other way around and it didn't work. I can't blame them. They put competitive, talented teams on the field anyway, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

 

yea I realize that. I just disagree with the notion that somehow any equation that cuts costs and still ends up with McPherson at third is an improvement. He is more of the same we have grown accustomed to complaining about.

 

It boils down to money and that to me is a signal that again, this team willbegin a season with low expectations from its fans.

 

Marginal fans will have nothing to be excited about because we will lose every athlete we grow attached to. Its no secret that Carlos Delgado, although not a major superstar, put additional fannies in the seats because the expectations immediately went up.

 

We lack star power and that will not improve until2011. I will patiently await the arrival of the young players and until then, I will not consider this team a legitimate contender.

I don't believe that's right. No one went anyway. That's the issue. When fans go and the team makes money, then they'll spend. They tried the other way around and it didn't work. I can't blame them. They put competitive, talented teams on the field anyway, it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

We had a large increase in season ticket holders after his acquisition. It put some fannies in the seats. It was a step in the right direction and they blew it up after one unsuccessful season.

Dallas McP is better defensively than Cantu, more range stronger arm. Cantu may give you a higher average but McP will project higher slugging so their OPS should be about the same. I wouldnt mind a platoon at 3rd and first wth Cantu, Dallas and Gabby Sanchez. However its a long way to April, we still have no idea of trades or free agent moves. I would love Uggla to stay but if the right trade comes along Beinfest will take advantage of it

Dallas McP is better defensively than Cantu, more range stronger arm. Cantu may give you a higher average but McP will project higher slugging so their OPS should be about the same. I wouldnt mind a platoon at 3rd and first wth Cantu, Dallas and Gabby Sanchez. However its a long way to April, we still have no idea of trades or free agent moves. I would love Uggla to stay but if the right trade comes along Beinfest will take advantage of it

 

I am sure he has a better arm because he is a natural third baseman, but didnt he have a large amount of errors?

The team has plenty of options.

 

Btw...how is getting rid of Uggla a "firesale?"

Hanley Ramirez is a star, but not of the magnitude of several other stars out there.

 

Lunacy.

 

 

Name them.

Hanley Ramirez is a star, but not of the magnitude of several other stars out there.

 

 

Name 5, and I'll give you a cookie.

I don't understand the push for McPherson. Lousy defensive 3rd baseman and a K machine. Why replace Cantu/Uggla with McPherson?

Gaby Sanchez plays pretty good defense over at first and that can improve some defensive numbers for Uggla, Cantu and Ramirez as a lot of their errors come on throws.

$

 

yea I realize that. I just disagree with the notion that somehow any equation that cuts costs and still ends up with McPherson at third is an improvement. He is more of the same we have grown accustomed to complaining about.

 

It boils down to money and that to me is a signal that again, this team willbegin a season with low expectations from its fans.

 

Marginal fans will have nothing to be excited about because we will lose every athlete we grow attached to. Its no secret that Carlos Delgado, although not a major superstar, put additional fannies in the seats because the expectations immediately went up.

 

We lack star power and that will not improve until2011. I will patiently await the arrival of the young players and until then, I will not consider this team a legitimate contender.

I don't believe that's right. No one went anyway. That's the issue. When fans go and the team makes money, then they'll spend. They tried the other way around and it didn't work. I can't blame them. They put competitive, talented teams on the field anyway, it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

In theory, fans should support their team, win or lose. But, this team has had to overcome a strike, two firesales and a horrible stadium along the way with only four winning seasons, if I am not mistaken. Yes we won two world series, but both times, the negative perception of their subsequent offseasons spurned fans away.

 

Every single year, we start off perceptually in third place or lower. This team was predicted to get around 60 wins. Yes we eventually field competitive teams, but the most pertinent attendance issue is Season Ticket Holders. When that number is small from the outset, it is difficult to build a fan base within that year.

 

IMO, this fan base is a marginal fan base. We have a large Television viewership consisting of a strong fan base, but the rest of the fans need additional incentives to attend the games. While gimmicks, such as Manatees and mermaids may help, having excitement in the offseason and having expectations heading into the season is a great way to start.

 

I believe that you cannot expect fans to crawl out of their homes when you have one good season follow by an arbitration-filled addition by substraction offseason. They marginal fan lacks baseball knowledge of the sort that people on this board claim to hold. This is perceived negatively by them and their motivation to buy season tickets is low. Look at the Dolphins... perception has been that they will suck... blackouts are now possible for six home games because they have difficulty selling walk-up tix. They thrive on STH.

Dallas McP is better defensively than Cantu, more range stronger arm. Cantu may give you a higher average but McP will project higher slugging so their OPS should be about the same. I wouldnt mind a platoon at 3rd and first wth Cantu, Dallas and Gabby Sanchez. However its a long way to April, we still have no idea of trades or free agent moves. I would love Uggla to stay but if the right trade comes along Beinfest will take advantage of it

 

I am sure he has a better arm because he is a natural third baseman, but didnt he have a large amount of errors?

 

 

Errors are a horrible way to judge a player defenisvely. Dallas, before he went down with a back injury, was roughly an average defensive 3b. His back injury probably took him down a bit, but he should still be around average. Cantu, on the other hand, is one of the worst defensive 3b's in the game, he ranked as the second worse 3b this past season.

 

Not only that, but Dallas, the left handed at bat, projects to put up a better OPS than Cantu against RHP. Likewise, Dallas shouldn't even see a LHP.

 

Also, Cantu's defense at 1b is very, very good.

 

That's why putting Cantu at first and Dallas at third against RHP, and Cantu at 3rd and Gaby at first against LHP makes the most sense.

Hanley Ramirez is a star, but not of the magnitude of several other stars out there.

 

 

Name 5, and I'll give you a cookie.

 

Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds until his "death", Johan Santana, Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, Derek Jeter.

 

You will probably disagree on some of those. Howard and Jeter are my weakest. Ichiro would probably bring out some Asian folk.

 

These are people that if the Marlins were to acquire them... fannies would come to the seats... I might add to the list Josh Beckett, CC Sabathia, Carlos Zambrano, these are all players that would energize the fan base.

 

Hanley is not there YET.