October 16, 200817 yr Ok... so let's just make this fun for me then... So, we're supposed to get rid of all those players... to have the money... to be able to trade for... a 1B that, via platoon, we can get reasonably similar production to? That is so asinine on SO many levels... As for the 2Bs and Uggla... Brian Roberts will cost too much and Castillo's not worth bringing in over just bringing up Coghlan who would provide probably better production than Castillo and not cost NEARLY what Roberts will... see what I did there, replaced from WITHIN the system, and much cheaper... cool huh? 1B and Jacobs? We have a stellar 3man platoon that will do just fine, I mentioned it earlier... McDallas/Cantu/Gaby will be solid. Also, seriously... you want to pay a TON of money to Pudge to back up John Baker, because that's what he'd do... is back up John Baker and probably only play against LHP and be a defensive sub... that's not a wise way to spend money... and heck, I even conceded to Kendall a bit, though I admitted bias there. But Kendall doesn't provide that much more than a Brett Hayes will... Oh hey, I just improved us at a bunch of positions/or gave us similar production to your alternatives, from within the system... and saved a bunch of money (by switching to Geico)... isn't that something? YOU are the type of person I was targetting with this post. You are concerned with the production we are getting out of these positions when the FO has already said they could give a rat's *** about the production. They want to improve the speed and defense, which is what this post is about. How many more SB's, and how many fewer Errors will Coghlan have next year than Uggla did this year, and how many more SB's, and how many fewer Errors will your 3-way at 1st have over our 1b's this year? I disagree with the premise that any of these players will be signed and/or traded for regardless of the FO's emphasis on team speed and defense. However, most Marlins fans are making large assumptions. Are young players capable of making the everyday player transition into platoon artist at the ML level? It is entirely possible that Dallas McPherson, Sanchez and Cantu will be platooning and Coghlan will be at 2B, but as the post-starter mentioned, I do not see how this improves our team. Yes, McPherson is better defensively than Cantu. And yes Cantu/Gaby are better D at first. But you are platooning Cantu, a very productive and arguably our most consistent bat/MVP. McPherson is a strikeout artist. However, his OBP is better, but can we count on him? Furthermore, platoons do not always work. Cody Ross, for instance, was much better playing everyday. A lot of people on this post wanted an Amezaga/Cody platoon. Coghlan. A transition to 2B is considered easier than moving from 2B to 3B and yet he made a boatload of errors. What would you consider the reasons for this? He must be great defensively. And speed... is overrated... says PWG... so why would his replacing UGGLA make baseball/financial sense. Losing all of Uggla's production for an asset whose most important attribute is overrated. wow I do agree that Jacobs is replaceable because he lacks contact, OBP, and is lousy against lefties anyway. But Uggla was pretty good and our options are not as sexy as the replacements for Jacobs. The OF: Hermida deserves another shot because of his age and Willingham, if his back does not improve, can be replaced with some Cody as I hope MAybin is patrolling the bermuda triangle.
October 16, 200817 yr Coghlan. A transition to 2B is considered easier than moving from 2B to 3B and yet he made a boatload of errors. What would you consider the reasons for this? He must be great defensively. And speed... is overrated... says PWG... so why would his replacing UGGLA make baseball/financial sense. Losing all of Uggla's production for an asset whose most important attribute is overrated. wow Coghlan's best asset is the fact he doesn't strike out much and he puts the ball and play while showing good plate discipline.
October 16, 200817 yr Coghlan. A transition to 2B is considered easier than moving from 2B to 3B and yet he made a boatload of errors. What would you consider the reasons for this? He must be great defensively. And speed... is overrated... says PWG... so why would his replacing UGGLA make baseball/financial sense. Losing all of Uggla's production for an asset whose most important attribute is overrated. wow Coghlan's best asset is the fact he doesn't strike out much and he puts the ball and play while showing good plate discipline. He is poor defensively and yes still worse than Uggla (Uggla, btw, was much improved). Uggla did strike out a lot, but he was our second best run producer last year. What is Coghlan's OBP compared to Uggla's in the Major Leagues? That is what counts when it comes to plate discipline and striking out as many posters have argued. If Uggla is K'ing more, yet hitting 30-35 Hr's, 50 doubles, 90-100 RBI, and his OBP is HIGHER than Coghlans + better defense (now), then IMO, UGGLA remains more valuable than Coghlan. But, I see the point in trading him if it IMPROVES our team. If this nets us a Matt Cain as some other posts have suggested, then I jump on the Coghlan bandwagon. I think Coghlan is suitable if that means we have a quality player in return for Uggla. It all depends on what Uggla's trade value is and what that nets. The question is... what do we get in exchange for UGGLA that makes it worthwhile?
October 16, 200817 yr Where do I begin on this one? When the FO anounce they are expanding the payroll, it doesn't mean Loria has become Steinbrenner! It means the team will not have another fire sale and may be even willing to sign some long term contacts...not many but a few. I would guess Uggla, if not traded, could be offered a 3 or 4 year deal. My dream is to have the core of the rotation signed long term, but I doubt that will happen. This franchise will not really be involved in the F/A market, nor will it pursue players with large contracts. However it will sign some of it's present players to significant raises. Forgot to add to the list David Ortiz and Carlos Beltran. They could help the Marlins as well.
October 16, 200817 yr Reading some of the posts on this site for the past week or two makes me think that some of us have forgotten that the FO has made it a priority to improve the team's speed and defense for next season. That being said, I'm not so sold on the prospective "re-positioning" of players on the current roster, and promoting from within to accomplish this goal to the extent needed to make a serious playoff push. Here are a few players who I think could substantially improve our team in a least one of those two areas: OF: Alex Rios Matt Kemp Randy Winn Delmon Young Johnny Damon Matt Holliday Willy Taveras Mike Cameron Carl Crawford Vernon Wells Juan Pierre Ken Griffey Jr. Jim Edmonds Andruw Jones 2B: Brian Roberts Luis Castillo 1B: Derrek Lee Doug Mientkiewicz C: Ivan Rodriguez Jason Kendall I'm sure there are many other players who could be added to this list. I'm just trying to do some "outside the box" thinking. Let the discussion begin. I don't think there is a single person on this list that I would want on this team, with maybe the exception of Kemp
October 16, 200817 yr Ortiz would not help the Marlins Liar. He'd help finish the buffet :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy
October 17, 200817 yr Chris Coghlan will at worst be Dan Uggla out there, and like I have said in the past... he isn't a bonehead either. The kid had like twice as many errors in fewer games. How exactly is gonna be the same or better than Dan Uggla? Besides this, even with his Ks, Dan Uggla had the 2nd most BB on our team and the 2nd most BB of MLB 2B, and a better OBP this year than our old standard bearer, Miguel Cabrera. How this escapes people who insist that Uggla lacks plate discipline is annoying. He probably picked up as many Ks for taking too many pitches as he did for swinging at bad ones. The bottom line is that there are only 2 other 2B in MLB who statistically had a better offensive season than Uggla, those being Utley and Kinsler. That plus the fact that Uggla has consistently been our best starting IF defender means that you cannot replace his production as easily as so many here seem to think. Take him off this team and the team will be missing him badly by mid May. As for all the ridiculous suggestions in the OP, in contradiction to many on here, I actually wouldn't mind having JP back to play LF if not for his contract. I mean if he's a starter, he can still probably pickup 180-200 hits, and more important than his speed would be the fact that he is a contact guy who doesn't K very much at all, and even if he doesn't walk very much, he brings something different to the lineup. But again, there is zero chance of this happening given JP's contract.
October 17, 200817 yr Author Chris Coghlan will at worst be Dan Uggla out there, and like I have said in the past... he isn't a bonehead either. The kid had like twice as many errors in fewer games. How exactly is gonna be the same or better than Dan Uggla? Besides this, even with his Ks, Dan Uggla had the 2nd most BB on our team and the 2nd most BB of MLB 2B, and a better OBP this year than our old standard bearer, Miguel Cabrera. How this escapes people who insist that Uggla lacks plate discipline is annoying. He probably picked up as many Ks for taking too many pitches as he did for swinging at bad ones. The bottom line is that there are only 2 other 2B in MLB who statistically had a better offensive season than Uggla, those being Utley and Kinsler. That plus the fact that Uggla has consistently been our best starting IF defender means that you cannot replace his production as easily as so many here seem to think. Take him off this team and the team will be missing him badly by mid May. As for all the ridiculous suggestions in the OP, in contradiction to many on here, I actually wouldn't mind having JP back to play LF if not for his contract. I mean if he's a starter, he can still probably pickup 180-200 hits, and more important than his speed would be the fact that he is a contact guy who doesn't K very much at all, and even if he doesn't walk very much, he brings something different to the lineup. But again, there is zero chance of this happening given JP's contract. Thank you! That's what I was thinking about Juan Pierre when I put him on that list. The same goes for putting Luis Castillo on the list. They're almost the same player except that they play different positions and Castillo is alot cheaper. To quote Fredi Gonzalez: ''I'd like to see the defense keep improving, maybe trade some of that power for some guys that get on base and create havoc,'' manager Fredi Gonzalez said before Sunday's game. ``And more pitching. You can never have enough pitching. We've been talking about this since Day One.'' I think we entertain trading Jacobs and Uggla to SF for a Cain, Randy Winn package. Thus making Willingham expendable for a backup catcher and bullpen help. Throw the Mets a bag of peanuts for Luis Castillo, and you have yourself an improved ballclub. Lineup: CF Maybin 2B Castillo SS Hanley 3B Cantu/McPherson LF Randy Winn 1B Cantu/Gaby RF Hermida C Baker This buys Coghlan another year or two to work on his defense, drastically improves team speed, and defense, and leaves us with a starting rotation of Johnson, Cain, Nolasco, Olsen, Volstad, Sanchez, Miller(pick any five).
October 17, 200817 yr I think we entertain trading Jacobs and Uggla to SF for a Cain, Randy Winn package. Thus making Willingham expendable for a backup catcher and bullpen help. Throw the Mets a bag of peanuts for Luis Castillo, and you have yourself an improved ballclub. Lineup: CF Maybin 2B Castillo SS Hanley 3B Cantu/McPherson LF Randy Winn 1B Cantu/Gaby RF Hermida C Baker This buys Coghlan another year or two to work on his defense, drastically improves team speed, and defense, and leaves us with a starting rotation of Johnson, Cain, Nolasco, Olsen, Volstad, Sanchez, Miller(pick any five). Besides the fact the Giants wouldn't do that, Cody Ross has a 40+ OPS point offensive advantage over Randy Winn at their career rates. Last year Ross was 25 points better. Ross is a good defender. Ross also will make $5-6 million less than Winn in 2009. That would be a DOWNGRADE IN EVERY WAY SHAPE AND FORM. uh. Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre are incredibly different players. And we don't want either of them for age, contract, performance, etc reasons. JUST SAY NO. The field is done. The only decision is Uggla and prospect package versus Coghlan/Amezaga. All 7 other slots (Baker, Cantu, Hanley, McPherson/Sanchez, Ross, Maybin, Hermida), besides finding a better backup catcher to help Baker out, is completely set for 2009. Winn? Castillo? These are terrible suggestions.
October 17, 200817 yr Author Besides the fact the Giants wouldn't do that, Cody Ross has a 40+ OPS point offensive advantage over Randy Winn at their career rates. Last year Ross was 25 points better. Ross is a good defender. Ross also will make $5-6 million less than Winn in 2009. That would be a DOWNGRADE IN EVERY WAY SHAPE AND FORM. uh. Luis Castillo and Juan Pierre are incredibly different players. And we don't want either of them for age, contract, performance, etc reasons. JUST SAY NO. The field is done. The only decision is Uggla and prospect package versus Coghlan/Amezaga. All 7 other slots (Baker, Cantu, Hanley, McPherson/Sanchez, Ross, Maybin, Hermida), besides finding a better backup catcher to help Baker out, is completely set for 2009. Winn? Castillo? These are terrible suggestions. Sorry Lou, can't sit back and let this one slide. Winn '08:59 BB, 88 SO, 25 SB, .363 OBP, .426 SLG, .306 AVG, .790 OPS(598 AB's) Ross '08: 33 BB, 116 SO, 6 SB, .316 OBP, .488 SLG, .260 AVG, .804 OPS(461 AB's) Plenty of arguements for Winn over Ross, and Castillo's stat line doesn't look as bad for a team looking for...how did that quote go again?...''I'd like to see the defense keep improving, maybe trade some of that power for some guys that get on base and create havoc,'' manager Fredi Gonzalez said before Sunday's game. Still plenty of "defense," "getting on base," and "creating havoc" in Castillo. Castillo '08: 50 BB, 35 SO, 17 SB, .355 OBP, .305 SLG, .245 AVG, .660(298 AB's)
October 17, 200817 yr You should probably watch more Mets game (or not). Castillo doesn't have nearly the range he once had, and has real issues going to his right now. His batting average and slugging took an epic decline this season, and he's certainly not getting any younger. The only thing Winn brings to the table over Ross is his ability to walk. But at $9mil vs $2-3mil per year, it's not a big enough advantage. And again, ignore the errors (even if you can't wrap your head around that idea) with Coghlan. He's a solid defensive second baseman.
October 17, 200817 yr Sorry Lou, can't sit back and let this one slide. Winn '08:59 BB, 88 SO, 25 SB, .363 OBP, .426 SLG, .306 AVG, .790 OPS(598 AB's) Ross '08: 33 BB, 116 SO, 6 SB, .316 OBP, .488 SLG, .260 AVG, .804 OPS(461 AB's) Plenty of arguements for Winn over Ross, and Castillo's stat line doesn't look as bad for a team looking for...how did that quote go again?...''I'd like to see the defense keep improving, maybe trade some of that power for some guys that get on base and create havoc,'' manager Fredi Gonzalez said before Sunday's game. Randy Winn of 3 years/$23.25M (2007-09) 07:$4M, 08:$8M,09:$8.25M Cody Ross 2009: Arbitration $2-3 million It will cost players in trade to acquire Winn. Winn '08: .790 OPS Ross '08: .804 OPS This isn't even close.
October 17, 200817 yr Author You should probably watch more Mets game (or not). Castillo doesn't have nearly the range he once had, and has real issues going to his right now. His batting average and slugging took an epic decline this season, and he's certainly not getting any younger. The only thing Winn brings to the table over Ross is his ability to walk. But at $9mil vs $2-3mil per year, it's not a big enough advantage. And again, ignore the errors (even if you can't wrap your head around that idea) with Coghlan. He's a solid defensive second baseman. ...his ability to steal bases, his ability to not strike out, his ability to get on base, his ability to hit for average... ...and I don't think you can just "ignore the errors with Coghlan" when you've made it a priority to improve defensively...
October 17, 200817 yr Author Sorry Lou, can't sit back and let this one slide. Winn '08:59 BB, 88 SO, 25 SB, .363 OBP, .426 SLG, .306 AVG, .790 OPS(598 AB's) Ross '08: 33 BB, 116 SO, 6 SB, .316 OBP, .488 SLG, .260 AVG, .804 OPS(461 AB's) Plenty of arguements for Winn over Ross, and Castillo's stat line doesn't look as bad for a team looking for...how did that quote go again?...''I'd like to see the defense keep improving, maybe trade some of that power for some guys that get on base and create havoc,'' manager Fredi Gonzalez said before Sunday's game. Randy Winn of 3 years/$23.25M (2007-09) 07:$4M, 08:$8M,09:$8.25M Cody Ross 2009: Arbitration $2-3 million It will cost players in trade to acquire Winn. Winn '08: .790 OPS Ross '08: .804 OPS This isn't even close. ...and you think Mike Jacobs will net you a better return elsewhere? Jacobs' value is highest going to a power-starved team like the Giants...you know that. I think the FO would try to get SF to pay part of Winn's salary, just like they do in every other deal they make for players with higher salaries. Even if they don't get SF to pick any of it up, though, I still think we'd spend the money on Winn, because I think he's exactly the type of player we're looking to add to this team in the offseason.
October 17, 200817 yr good heavens how did Randy Winn ever get that kind of money.... The same way Aaron Rowand got even MORE... Sabean is a moron.
October 17, 200817 yr ...and you think Mike Jacobs will net you a better return elsewhere? Jacobs' value is highest going to a power-starved team like the Giants...you know that. I think the FO would try to get SF to pay part of Winn's salary, just like they do in every other deal they make for players with higher salaries. Even if they don't get SF to pick any of it up, though, I still think we'd spend the money on Winn, because I think he's exactly the type of player we're looking to add to this team in the offseason. Sandoval - Where Molina is going to play most of the C spot, and long term Posey will be their catcher. They love Sandoval and he is going to play a ton of 1B this year off his excellent AA year and encouraging .847 OPS in the bigs. Ishikawa - Just hit 1.107 in AAA and blasts RHP. He is a future Jacobs and they will see if he pans out Vilalona - Their top hitting prospect projects to be a 1B, will be entering A+ So they can try out the two guys for 2 years and see if they have anything, and then their top prospect shows up. It's pretty counterintuitive for them to acquire a 1B that isn't going to grow with the team. The need longterm middle infielders and maybe a 3B. Uggla, Cantu, McPherson, Coghlan, and Dominguez are players the Giants will be incredibly interested in. Not Mike Jacobs for Randy Winn. I think Seattle is a much better fit for Jacobs. Because they have a DH spot, and relatively nothing at the MLB level or top two levels of their minors at 1B.
October 18, 200817 yr Cantu playing 1st, Ross in LF, and Maybin in CF will immediately improve our defense. Maybin in CF will immediately improve our speed. This would require no acquisitions by the Marlins. If we really wanted to improve our defense and speed, we could acquire Furcal and have Hanley make his inevitable move to 3B.
October 18, 200817 yr Why is Hanley's move to 3B inevitable? Because he is going to get bigger He is?
October 18, 200817 yr Why is Hanley's move to 3B inevitable? Because he is going to get bigger YES...I've been saying this for some time now. Someone finally agreed. Hanley Ramirez will not finish his career as a shortstop. Not that this move has to be done so soon...but when it's all said and done in Hanley's career...he won't finish as a SS.
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