May 1, 200917 yr A) No one said anything about him being a legit draft pick, this is solely about you looking at his age and level of pro ball and saying it raises red flags. B) Lindstrom and Nunez spent four years in the minors before seeing major league action, and Calero saw closer to 7 years before he was called up. C) Do you have specific instances of stud relief draft picks "zooming through a system," or was that impulsive typing? Easiest reference to C is Huston Street... and a college hitter that zoomed through a system (and was competent that season) is Ryan Zimmerman. Also, Ryan Braun, Lance Berkman, Geoff Jenkins, Anthony Reyes, Braden Looper, Chad Cordero, David Aardsma, Jeremy Guthrie, Shawn Marcum... really, I could go on.... the point is, it's not even just RP prospects, college prospects in general tend to move faster, barring injury, holdout, or personal reasons. Leo Nunez may have spent 4 years in the minors before seeing ML action, but was still up by 21, when you start in a system at age 17, you're gonna spend some time in the minors unless you're absolutely prolific from day 1 and consistently throughout... Lindstrom was aberrational in his late ML debut because of his religious obligation and the delay it had on his career because he had to build himself back up. Calero is kind of what we WANT Gunderson to be in that he was a late round college RP that just happens to develop nicely and becomes useful. And yes, I can safely speak for Nny here by saying that, legit draft pick or not, 24 and in A ball is not a promising sign. It's a sign of stalled development, as I said earlier, either from FO ineptitude or something that the team sees that won't work at the next level. And even if it's not Gunderson's fault and it's just the Nats being stupid... it hurts his development regardless... he's starting to lean towards his physical prime and is spending that time throwing to minor leaguers instead of major leaguers, despite any semblance of success he's having.
May 1, 200917 yr A) No one said anything about him being a legit draft pick, this is solely about you looking at his age and level of pro ball and saying it raises red flags. B) Lindstrom and Nunez spent four years in the minors before seeing major league action, and Calero saw closer to 7 years before he was called up. C) Do you have specific instances of stud relief draft picks "zooming through a system," or was that impulsive typing? Easiest reference to C is Huston Street... and a college hitter that zoomed through a system (and was competent that season) is Ryan Zimmerman. Also, Ryan Braun, Lance Berkman, Geoff Jenkins, Anthony Reyes, Braden Looper, Chad Cordero, David Aardsma, Jeremy Guthrie, Shawn Marcum... really, I could go on.... the point is, it's not even just RP prospects, college prospects in general tend to move faster, barring injury, holdout, or personal reasons. Leo Nunez may have spent 4 years in the minors before seeing ML action, but was still up by 21, when you start in a system at age 17, you're gonna spend some time in the minors unless you're absolutely prolific from day 1 and consistently throughout... Lindstrom was aberrational in his late ML debut because of his religious obligation and the delay it had on his career because he had to build himself back up. Calero is kind of what we WANT Gunderson to be in that he was a late round college RP that just happens to develop nicely and becomes useful. And yes, I can safely speak for Nny here by saying that, legit draft pick or not, 24 and in A ball is not a promising sign. It's a sign of stalled development, as I said earlier, either from FO ineptitude or something that the team sees that won't work at the next level. And even if it's not Gunderson's fault and it's just the Nats being stupid... it hurts his development regardless... he's starting to lean towards his physical prime and is spending that time throwing to minor leaguers instead of major leaguers, despite any semblance of success he's having. +1. Good post. Also, David Price.
May 1, 200917 yr It is not possible to draw hard and fast rules when it comes to how fast or slow, or at what age a player is major league ready, or the path his development will take. Not all kids graduating from college have been exposed to the same level of competition, or months of available playing time, or quality of coaching or or or... individual maturity, drive, skillset...it just goes on. Is the Cubs minor league system a mirror of the Marlins? Do they teach the same programs? Do they move players along at the same rate? Generally I agree with the above, I really don't have much of an argument with it as a theory, and Lindstrom being a good example used of why, I just think it's a waste of time to attempt to draw these kinds of conclusions as absolutes or near absolutes when there are so many variables and we are after all discussing unique human beings in their own situational matrix.
May 1, 200917 yr It is not possible to draw hard and fast rules when it comes to how fast or slow, or at what age a player is major league ready, or the path his development will take. Not all kids graduating from college have been exposed to the same level of competition, or months of available playing time, or quality of coaching or or or... individual maturity, drive, skillset...it just goes on. Is the Cubs minor league system a mirror of the Marlins? Do they teach the same programs? Do they move players along at the same rate? Generally I agree with the above, I really don't have much of an argument with it as a theory, and Lindstrom being a good example used of why, I just think it's a waste of time to attempt to draw these kinds of conclusions as absolutes or near absolutes when there are so many variables and we are after all discussing unique human beings in their own situational matrix. Nobody made it a hard and fast rule, but the thing is... it's fine to say everybody is unique and one-of-a-kind and in some regards that holds merit, but more often than not... baseball players all fit into one mold or another, and it makes predictions reasonable, not perfect, but completely reasonable. Lindstrom had a glaring caveat to his development that sets him apart from other college pitchers, but I'm sure that if someone were to do a study, the percentages would say that college players typically spend less time in the minors than high school players... that's all that's being said really... and, to take it one step further... first round college players take less time than first round high school athletes. Your "unique" argument is an outlier to what is generally regarded as a common knowledge statement. Yes, occasionally there will be a high schooler that spends 4 years versus a college player that may take 6, but it is an exception.
May 1, 200917 yr A) No one said anything about him being a legit draft pick, this is solely about you looking at his age and level of pro ball and saying it raises red flags. B) Lindstrom and Nunez spent four years in the minors before seeing major league action, and Calero saw closer to 7 years before he was called up. C) Do you have specific instances of stud relief draft picks "zooming through a system," or was that impulsive typing? A) Nothing anybody has said argues otherwise, though. A 24 year old repeating A ball or lower for the third strait year raises massive red flags. If he was legit, he'd been called up. Again, we have 24 year olds dominating A ball all the time. We never call them up either. They're minor league filler. B) Lee Gardner spent 9 years. That doesn't mean they were legit prospects when they were prospects. C) Taylor Tankersley alone. Huston Street. Craig Hansen. One of the major points of drafting a college RP (really any college player but more specifically RP) is that they are close to MLB ready and don't need much minor league seasoning.
May 1, 200917 yr You guys should try minor league seasoning on rib-eye steaks. man they taste good! *Now with added intangibles!
May 1, 200917 yr A) No one said anything about him being a legit draft pick, this is solely about you looking at his age and level of pro ball and saying it raises red flags. B) Lindstrom and Nunez spent four years in the minors before seeing major league action, and Calero saw closer to 7 years before he was called up. C) Do you have specific instances of stud relief draft picks "zooming through a system," or was that impulsive typing? A) Nothing anybody has said argues otherwise, though. A 24 year old repeating A ball or lower for the third strait year raises massive red flags. If he was legit, he'd been called up. Again, we have 24 year olds dominating A ball all the time. We never call them up either. They're minor league filler. B) Lee Gardner spent 9 years. That doesn't mean they were legit prospects when they were prospects. C) Taylor Tankersley alone. Huston Street. Craig Hansen. One of the major points of drafting a college RP (really any college player but more specifically RP) is that they are close to MLB ready and don't need much minor league seasoning. You make a few good points. However: A) He has been promoted every year. He's been performing well enough to earn a promotion every year, not necessarily to be deemed MLB ready, but well enough to be promoted to the next level. He can't do anything more than that. No one knows how he would have or will perform in AA or AAA, had he been promoted faster. B) I think this helps make my point. It doesn't matter how long a guy spends in the minors. Lee Gardner still ended up being a serviceable MLB relief pitcher despite his extended minor league career. C) Get Tankersley off of this list. One could make the point that he was promoted too quickly.
May 1, 200917 yr C) Get Tankersley off of this list. One could make the point that he was promoted too quickly. How do you figure?
May 1, 200917 yr The Nationals are the new Mets with al the former Marlins. I've got a good friend who lives around the Nats A team and knows a ton of the players. He says Gunderson is a good player and has potential to be up in the bigs with the right team this year. We'll see how it pans out. What are your friends credentials? Not to sound mean, but I highly doubt he can be a big-league pitcher this year. Now that Steven Shell has selected free agency rather than staying in the Nationals organization (as if this should come as a surprise after Rizzo's comments) he might look good in NOLA as a part of a division leading organization and a good chance to make it back to the bigs. Agreed. My friend houses players during the season in a minor league town (the town that the Nats A team is in) so he knows the team pretty well.
May 2, 200917 yr That's cool. Might mean he's a good host, doesn't necessarily mean he's a talent evaluator :whistle
May 2, 200917 yr Darn. I think I'm agreeing with Erick. Tank wasn't promoted too quickly. He did just fine the first couple years with us. Heck, folks around these boards would get ticked if we didn't utilize him in a tight game. Then in ST of '08 a friend and I noticed he seemed to have mellowed alot in his attitude while not pitching, without going into specifics. He seemed to take that new "mellowness" onto the mound with him. Like he had lost the killer instinct or something. He wasn't going right at hitters like he just knew he was going to get them out. He just wasn't a "tank" anymore. I remarked a few times last year that the only thing I recognized about him was the sprint from the pen to the mound. I think it's an attitude thing with him. Once (if) he gets that attitude back people will be saying how they always liked him and start posting his '06 and '07 stats to back themselves up. If he dosen't then we will probably go with the change of scenery philosophy. Be a shame to see him mowing down hitters for some other team.
May 2, 200917 yr A) No one said anything about him being a legit draft pick, this is solely about you looking at his age and level of pro ball and saying it raises red flags. B) Lindstrom and Nunez spent four years in the minors before seeing major league action, and Calero saw closer to 7 years before he was called up. C) Do you have specific instances of stud relief draft picks "zooming through a system," or was that impulsive typing? A) Nothing anybody has said argues otherwise, though. A 24 year old repeating A ball or lower for the third strait year raises massive red flags. If he was legit, he'd been called up. Again, we have 24 year olds dominating A ball all the time. We never call them up either. They're minor league filler. B) Lee Gardner spent 9 years. That doesn't mean they were legit prospects when they were prospects. C) Taylor Tankersley alone. Huston Street. Craig Hansen. One of the major points of drafting a college RP (really any college player but more specifically RP) is that they are close to MLB ready and don't need much minor league seasoning. You make a few good points. However: A) He has been promoted every year. He's been performing well enough to earn a promotion every year, not necessarily to be deemed MLB ready, but well enough to be promoted to the next level. He can't do anything more than that. No one knows how he would have or will perform in AA or AAA, had he been promoted faster. B) I think this helps make my point. It doesn't matter how long a guy spends in the minors. Lee Gardner still ended up being a serviceable MLB relief pitcher despite his extended minor league career. C) Get Tankersley off of this list. One could make the point that he was promoted too quickly. A) The point is is that you do not keep legit prospects that are 24 years old in A ball. B) NOBODY has said that he'll 100% never become anything. Technically speaking, every player in the minors is a prospect. The difference between a high prospect and a low prospect is that a high prospect has a large chance of playing in the bigs and a low prospect has a low chance. That doesn't mean a high prospect is going to 100% work out or a low prospect is going to 100% not work out. You play the chances though. And C was already covered.
May 9, 200917 yr John Baker sneaks inside the Nats clubhouse wearing Flores jersey, and comes in the game when Kensing pitches just to f*** with him
May 9, 200917 yr For as many good draft picks may zoom through the system there are also plenty that have been rushed to their detriment. Just look at Andrew Miller if you need an example, of a guy who came up way too fast and always looks like damaged goods.
May 9, 200917 yr Kensing as a Nat (so far), 3.2 IP, 4 ER, 3BB, 1 K, 9.82 ERA Still bothered by Baker letting his pitches go. Obviously.
May 9, 200917 yr Kensing as a Nat (so far), 3.2 IP, 4 ER, 3BB, 1 K, 9.82 ERA The misadventures of Logan continue.
May 10, 200917 yr Josh Willingham, hitting .190, 2 HR, 4 RBI Scott Olsen, 1-3, 6.54 ERA, 31.2 innings in 6 starts combined salaries of Kensing, Josh, and Olsen = 6.5 million, or about 1/6th of the Marlins entire payroll
May 10, 200917 yr Willingham picking it up recently with somewhat steady playing time. Will always be a credible trade from the salary point though. We couldn't keep them.
May 11, 200917 yr Willingham picking it up recently with somewhat steady playing time. Will always be a credible trade from the salary point though. We couldn't keep them. Hammer hit 2 homers today. OPS is now over .800.
May 11, 200917 yr It was never a production concern with him. He can't stay healthy, and I don't see him doing it this year at 30.
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