I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

It's not as if Cishek has been overworked. They ended up using him, anyway.

Tie game in the 8th inning is a good spot to use your best middle reliever if he's available, which he apparently was.

 

When Webb blew up in the Toronto game, Ozzie gave him a pass postgame saying that he wasn't a 2-inning guy. Yet, he keeps extending him for more than 1 inning.

 

Also, according to Preston Wilson, the Brewers had like 4 left-handed pinch-hitters on the bench so I it's kinda weird that Choate didn't come in to pitch to Ishikawa in the 6th inning. At least imo.

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

 

Huh?

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

I have no idea why you would have that impression. In his 31 appearances over that period he's allowed more than 1 ER a total of 2 times (once 2 ER and another 3). He was in fact pretty consistent over that period, I'd say.

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

It's not as if Cishek has been overworked. They ended up using him, anyway.

Tie game in the 8th inning is a good spot to use your best middle reliever if he's available, which he apparently was.

 

When Webb blew up in the Toronto game, Ozzie gave him a pass postgame saying that he wasn't a 2-inning guy. Yet, he keeps extending him for more than 1 inning.

 

Also, according to Preston Wilson, the Brewers had like 4 left-handed pinch-hitters on the bench so I it's kinda weird that Choate didn't come in to pitch to Ishikawa in the 6th inning. At least imo.

Webb is the second best reliever on the team (Choate aside since he's used situationally). In a tie game situation in the 8th inning, I'd definitely say it's wise to use him a second inning and run the risk of having to use Gaudin, Dunn, Bell, and LeBlanc sooner than you need to.

 

And I think Ozzie is wrong about Webb not being a 2 inning guy. Webb did it a bunch of times last season with favorable results.

 

If anything, I'd criticize Ozzie for not pulling Zambrano sooner. I don't have an issue with sending Webb out there again.

And Erick are you really going to stand by your remark that Webb has been "basically terrible all year?"

Is there a reason why Ryan Webb, despite being terrible basically all year, was given 2 innings tonight in a tied game?

 

 

Actually like last year Webb started well and then tanked.

 

Really annoying because he has a good arm.

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

I have no idea why you would have that impression. In his 31 appearances over that period he's allowed more than 1 ER a total of 2 times (once 2 ER and another 3). He was in fact pretty consistent over that period, I'd say.

 

I dont know, that's the impression I get since we traded for him. I could be way off base.How many games does it show that he has given up 1 run to tie the game or give away the lead.? Doesnt have to mean he gave up more than 1. What about giving up runs that weren't put on base by him, where he can't come in a shut it down? That's what I'm getting at

 

And erick a little clarification to what your huh'ing about would help

I don't believe he's allowed any inherited runners to score. He also rates well in tie game and close & late situations overall, but it's too much effort required to tally up individual game results for that.

 

We use statistics because our impressions are often wrong.

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

I have no idea why you would have that impression. In his 31 appearances over that period he's allowed more than 1 ER a total of 2 times (once 2 ER and another 3). He was in fact pretty consistent over that period, I'd say.

 

I dont know, that's the impression I get since we traded for him. I could be way off base.How many games does it show that he has given up 1 run to tie the game or give away the lead.? Doesnt have to mean he gave up more than 1. What about giving up runs that weren't put on base by him, where he can't come in a shut it down? That's what I'm getting at

 

And erick a little clarification to what your huh'ing about would help

 

It just didn't make sense to me and I thought you were trying to say something else, but apparently not. The Steve Cishek-Ricky Nolasco comparison is rather awful, no offense.

 

Cishek is our best high-leverage reliever.

 

If he were as inconsistent as you say, his career ERA wouldn't be a solid 2.45 (lower after tonight's performance).

 

If anything, he's been our most consistent reliever since being called up last year.

He was talking about Webb not Cishek, but I still think he's wrong.

I don't believe he's allowed any inherited runners to score. He also rates well in tie game and close & late situations overall, but it's too much effort required to tally up individual game results for that.

 

We use statistics because our impressions are often wrong.

 

 

If there isnt a readily available stat for inherited runs given up there should be. I think it's important. Without it both of us are just going off our impressions of inherited runs given up.

Well, in that case, what he's saying can be statistically proven.

 

Webb's ERA last year, for example, was misleading. I don't know the inherited runner #'s (although I do recall he was one of our worst last year in the category...rather awful), but he ended up with a negative win probability and just 12 shutdowns/11 meltdowns (rather terrible ratio).

 

This year, he's been getting hit extremely hard to the tune of a ~29 LD%. At this point, I don't think the confidence in him should be all that high (although there really aren't many options, unfortunately).

I saw nothing wrong with it. You guys act like he's horrible. He had a 3.56 ERA and 1.15 WHIP before the Toronto blow-up. He's probably one of the better relievers.

 

You can't use Cishek every time.

 

 

While I agree you cant always use Cishek, it just seems that he can't always be clutch when he needs to be in those situations he's in and the numbers you posted are surprising. I figured they would be higher. He can be lights out but reminds me of Ricky. He's either on or completely off.

 

This loss is not completely on one guy by any means.

I have no idea why you would have that impression. In his 31 appearances over that period he's allowed more than 1 ER a total of 2 times (once 2 ER and another 3). He was in fact pretty consistent over that period, I'd say.

 

I dont know, that's the impression I get since we traded for him. I could be way off base.How many games does it show that he has given up 1 run to tie the game or give away the lead.? Doesnt have to mean he gave up more than 1. What about giving up runs that weren't put on base by him, where he can't come in a shut it down? That's what I'm getting at

 

And erick a little clarification to what your huh'ing about would help

 

It just didn't make sense to me and I thought you were trying to say something else, but apparently not. The Steve Cishek-Ricky Nolasco comparison is rather awful, no offense.

 

Cishek is our best high-leverage reliever.

 

If he were as inconsistent as you say, his career ERA wouldn't be a solid 2.45 (lower after tonight's performance).

 

If anything, he's been our most consistent reliever since being called up last year.

 

Yeah I was talking about Webb and after re-reading my post I can see where you got lost. I completly agree about Cishek. He has been great in high leverage situations.

Well, in that case, what he's saying can be statistically proven.

 

Webb's ERA last year, for example, was misleading. I don't know the inherited runner #'s (although I do recall he was one of our worst last year in the category...rather awful), but he ended up with a negative win probability and just 12 shutdowns/11 meltdowns (rather terrible ratio).

 

This year, he's been getting hit extremely hard to the tune of a ~29 LD%. At this point, I don't think the confidence in him should be all that high (although there really aren't many options, unfortunately).

 

 

Thanks Eric for pulling something up on it. I was wondering if there were stats to figure inherited runners allowed.

 

I just remember him having trouble shutting down inherited situations he was brought into and its seemed to have continued this year. It's surprising, with some of the velocity and movement he gets on his pitches, it seems that he should be more dominant. He has had some great preformabce but other times he seems very hittable. I don't know if he is missing his spots or what.

You guys can take the red or blue pill,

 

I'm taking the suicide one if we lose another tomorrow.

You guys can take the red or blue pill,

 

I'm taking the suicide one if we lose another tomorrow.

 

 

Is it the black pill?

I don't know why we opened with Webb in the 8th...I'm blaming this one on Guillen...

Is this team trying to accumulate a top ten list of the worst losses in franchise history? I need a drink....unfortunately I don't drink.

 

 

I didn't until the bottom of the sixth last night.

Well, in that case, what he's saying can be statistically proven.

 

Webb's ERA last year, for example, was misleading. I don't know the inherited runner #'s (although I do recall he was one of our worst last year in the category...rather awful), but he ended up with a negative win probability and just 12 shutdowns/11 meltdowns (rather terrible ratio).

 

This year, he's been getting hit extremely hard to the tune of a ~29 LD%. At this point, I don't think the confidence in him should be all that high (although there really aren't many options, unfortunately).

 

 

I too think it was pretty confounding that ozzie left Webb in for another inning. It should of been Cishek's (who came in anyway) and we have leblanc in there if the game ended up going to extras... But if Hanley doesn't play 3b like a little leaguer, we would of had the lead and Dunn would have been in there. So whatever.

WHIP of 1.20 is what is considered very good. That means, very good pitchers do not go 1-2-3 all the time. Those guys are the mythical beings that every fan thinks the other team's closer represents.

Ok, I read the stats wrong before by looking at the wrong column, but Webb's allowed 9 inherited runners to score this season.

 

His inherited runner score rate is only slightly worse than Cishek's (36% vs. 33.3%).

 

It might seem like Webb blows up more, but that's probably because he's had many more inherited runners this season (compared to Cishek).

 

So he hasn't been nearly as bad as you guys say.

Well, in that case, what he's saying can be statistically proven.

 

Webb's ERA last year, for example, was misleading. I don't know the inherited runner #'s (although I do recall he was one of our worst last year in the category...rather awful), but he ended up with a negative win probability and just 12 shutdowns/11 meltdowns (rather terrible ratio).

 

This year, he's been getting hit extremely hard to the tune of a ~29 LD%. At this point, I don't think the confidence in him should be all that high (although there really aren't many options, unfortunately).

 

Webb let 33% of his inherited runners score last year, which is Cishek's rate this season.

 

He's not some kind of elite reliever, but he's been pretty decent and pretty consistent.

Well, in that case, what he's saying can be statistically proven.

 

Webb's ERA last year, for example, was misleading. I don't know the inherited runner #'s (although I do recall he was one of our worst last year in the category...rather awful), but he ended up with a negative win probability and just 12 shutdowns/11 meltdowns (rather terrible ratio).

 

This year, he's been getting hit extremely hard to the tune of a ~29 LD%. At this point, I don't think the confidence in him should be all that high (although there really aren't many options, unfortunately).

 

 

Thanks Eric for pulling something up on it. I was wondering if there were stats to figure inherited runners allowed.

Did he pull up stats on it? :lol

The lesser perception of Webb probably has to do with the fact that relief pitching is situational and Cishek has been better in high-leverage situations.

 

Webb has been rather mediocre with the Marlins, to be honest.

A 4.01 ERA/1.3+ WHIP is probably not the guy who should be pitching 2 high-leverage innings in a game when there are better options available.