The bigger question is why any of this still matters so much to some people? The deal was made 5 years ago. The stadium is entering it's 3rd season of use. The ballpark isn't go away, so what is the point of this debate? You don't like how the ballpark was financed? Fine, but at some point, you just have to accept it and move on.

The bigger question is why any of this still matters so much to some people? The deal was made 5 years ago. The stadium is entering it's 3rd season of use. The ballpark isn't go away, so what is the point of this debate? You don't like how the ballpark was financed? Fine, but at some point, you just have to accept it and move on.

 

I think people still just wanna prove their side of the story to be the right one. Its like who came first the chicken or the egg? I don't care but I tend to eat my eggs for breakfast and my chicken for dinner so the egg comes first for me.

Ah, the NYT "nugget" isn't worth a tinker's dam. But, that's true of almost everything published in the NYT.

 

Cincinnati ain't Miami. The fact that some idiot screwed up an estimate of future local sales tax revenue (an entirely different thing than Miami-Dade bed-tax revenue) means nothing. The actual M-D bed-tax receipt figures I laid out above proves the entire speculative proposition of doom and gloom to have been totally wrong.

 

As for the Dolphins, there's zero evidence that any given Super Bowl or the lack of it is any big deal, nor is there any evidence that any stadium built is any big deal one way or the other. So, your "argument" is nothing but mere opinion based on supposition and probably incorrect assumptions.

 

But, hey, the Dolphins were late to the party. So, now they want to increase the bed-tax rate so they too can benefit from some tourist money. That would actually be harmful. You know, to more of those same people who don't realize that they don't have jobs because the various bed-taxes exist in the first place.

 

Meanwhile, even though you've posted mountains of nonsense, I still want to know when you're going to give up your futile quest to demonstrate that Loria has "fleeced" anyone.

The bigger question is why any of this still matters so much to some people? The deal was made 5 years ago. The stadium is entering it's 3rd season of use. The ballpark isn't go away, so what is the point of this debate? You don't like how the ballpark was financed? Fine, but at some point, you just have to accept it and move on.

 

I quite agree. But, I'm tired of old, discredited nonsense being posted as fact, even all these years later. By people who seem to feel some need to bash Loria. And do it incessantly. I get it. Some people don't like Loria, for whatever reason. But, trashing him based on nonsense is ridiculous.

 

So, I'll continue to point out why the nonsense is nonsense as long as the nonsense continues to be posted.

I get why people don't like Loria. He's not a good owner. If people don't like him for how he runs the team, that's fine. I'm waiting for the day he sells the team just like everyone else. What I don't get is why we STILL have to debate the stadium deal that was made 5 years ago. I spent many years following the stadium saga here. As a result, I've watched what other cities did to get their deals passed and stadiums built. This one here is no different. If you are against public financing, I get it (don't necessarily agree, but I get it). But it's time to stop pretending like the Marlins deal is somehow worse than others just because Loria is involved. The stadium is built, so just get over it already. That stadium is the best thing Loria has done here and it (and baseball) will be around far longer than he will own the team.

I'll continue to point out why the nonsense is nonsense as long as the nonsense continues to be posted.

 

I'd like to nominate this as a permanent slogan for the forums.

And, just to be clear, there shouldn't be any such thing as a taxpayer-owned stadium. There also shouldn't be any such thing as "bed-taxes." Tourism and conventions and hotels will do just fine without any stupid local government "promoting" something that doesn't need to be promoted beyond the extent that the businesses involved will do so themselves, voluntarily and at their own expense. There shouldn't be any such thing as taxpayer (whether locals or tourists) financing of any stadium.

 

You own a professional sports team and need a new stadium? Build it your own damned self with your own money.

 

But, that's not the world we live in. In the real world, the sports team owner makes noises about moving and the locality then figures out how to get a stadium built so that no move happens. That's what's known as successful rent-seeking.

 

So it goes, time after time, Loria and the Marlins are but one example.

 

My point is that Loria, successful rent-seeker that he is (as are most pro sports owners) didn't fleece anyone. He only took advantage of stuff that idiot politicians put in place before the Marlins even existed.

 

The advantage of his deal is that it didn't impose any costs on us locals. Other than the jobs-that-were-never-created-because-of-the-bed-tax thing, but that's the fault of the politicians who enacted the bed-taxes, not Loria. To claim otherwise is just silly -- we locals got away with not paying a penny for a grand stadium -- but I guess that some people just can't get over that fact.

 

Got a problem with that?

 

Take it up with the politicians who enabled it.

'...' the anarcho-capitalist

Holy crap Loria is posting on here.

'...' the anarcho-capitalist

 

I've been called many things, including late for dinner, but that's a first.

Holy crap Loria is posting on here.

 

I had never wondered whether or not you were an idiot, but now that you've raised the issue it's clear.

I get why people don't like Loria. He's not a good owner. If people don't like him for how he runs the team, that's fine. I'm waiting for the day he sells the team just like everyone else. What I don't get is why we STILL have to debate the stadium deal that was made 5 years ago. I spent many years following the stadium saga here. As a result, I've watched what other cities did to get their deals passed and stadiums built. This one here is no different. If you are against public financing, I get it (don't necessarily agree, but I get it). But it's time to stop pretending like the Marlins deal is somehow worse than others just because Loria is involved. The stadium is built, so just get over it already. That stadium is the best thing Loria has done here and it (and baseball) will be around far longer than he will own the team.

 

Because of his abrasive ownership style, people cannot and will not divorce their anger over the ballpark. It's the tangible and visible monument to his (for the most part) failed ownership. In South Florida he was the worst kind of owner that could have come here. A fragile fanbase, already dismayed with MLB because of the horrible Henry administration, and mix that with Loria's tendency to just not "give a fuck" about the fanbase attitude, and add 3 consecutive years of some of the worst baseball in MLB, you get, voila ! Opening Day (night) tickets being sold on Groupon, and a real chance there is the smallest opening game attendance in team history. Even the beautiful ballpark cannot save this right now or even the "Cuban Wonder Boy", it's not enough. Loria also has no one to blame but himself.

Failed ownership?

 

Loria, unlike a decade of previous owners, got the damned stadium built.

 

Baseball will be here for at least the next 40 years. You, and your blind Loria-hatred may or may not be.

Failed ownership?

 

Loria, unlike a decade of previous owners, got the damned stadium built.

 

Baseball will be here for at least the next 40 years. You, and your blind Loria-hatred may or may not be.

 

Well at least your honest in what is really Loria's main goal has been and his perception of successful ownership - to make easy money. It has nothing to do with winning championships or even putting a winning product on the field.

 

Blind ? No my eyes were open to Loria before he ever came here. There's a reason why Selig made sure he didn't go to Washington with the Montreal franchise. I think everyone can see why now. Loria would have so upset the politicos in that town, I am sure they would have given great thought to overturning the anti-trust exemption MLB enjoys today. Instead So. Fla was sacrificed - lucky us !

Opening Night 2014 will not have lower attendance than 2013... a year ago everyone seemingly hated the team... now we've got Jose Fernandez and anyone who hated the 2012 "fire sale" has already forgotten about it.

Opening Night 2014 will not have lower attendance than 2013... a year ago everyone seemingly hated the team... now we've got Jose Fernandez and anyone who hated the 2012 "fire sale" has already forgotten about it.

Okay....and Loria said he would increase payroll to be competitive and how long did that last ?

Well at least your [sic] honest in what is really Loria's main goal has been and his perception of successful ownership - to make easy money. It has nothing to do with winning championships or even putting a winning product on the field.

 

Blind ? No my eyes were open to Loria before he ever came here. There's a reason why Selig made sure he didn't go to Washington with the Montreal franchise. I think everyone can see why now. Loria would have so upset the politicos in that town, I am sure they would have given great thought to overturning the anti-trust exemption MLB enjoys today. Instead So. Fla was sacrificed - lucky us !

 

You're dreaming, making stuff up, delusional or some combination thereof.

 

1) Loria hasn't realized a penny of "easy money" on the stadium -- if it enhances the value of the franchise he only sees that when he sells, which is probably never. He lost 50+ mill of hard, cold cash in the first year of operation in the new park.

 

2) Selig did no such thing. The MLB/Loria/Henry MON/FLA/BOS shuffle happened in 2002. The MLB-owned Expos moved to DC in 2004. Nobody in DC gives a crap about MLB's anti-trust exemption. Cheapskate Clark Griffith owned the Senators for three decades and then cheapskate Calvin Griffith moved them out of DC to Minnesota in '61 and the exemption survived. Then the new post-Minnesota-move expansion Senators up and moved to Texas in '71 and the exemption survived.

 

3) The Nat's stadium cost 611 million. It's owned and was almost 100% financed by the city of DC, the bonds to be repaid by a utility tax on local businesses, all of which will be passed on to local residents via prices. MLB kicked in 20 mill and the Nats pay rent. That's it. When DC tried to make MLB pay half of the cost, MLB (read Selig) stopped negotiating and started looking to move elsewhere. DC promptly dropped the idea. DC not only loves cheapskate owners, they love getting screwed over by MLB and its successor owner, but what the hell? It's only the locals who pay the price.

 

Unlike the locals here, who don't pay a penny for the stadium because Loria owns the Marlins.

 

You Loria-haters really need to come up with some new material.

I saw no denial, only a lame comment. The deal on the park was corrupt, the team lied, the government believed them (what a surprise) tax collections will not make the bond payment, you put an inferior produce on the field buy cry when another team does the same thing. Now is it your fault the elected officials are stupid?( Some may have received something of value for their vote) No. Only someone involved with this cluster could defend it.

Okay....and Loria said he would increase payroll to be competitive and how long did that last ?

 

You're right but you and I as fans who follow the team day in and day out remember that. Most casual fans don't care what the payroll is. Winning and losing is all they care about.

Opening Night 2014 will not have lower attendance than 2013... a year ago everyone seemingly hated the team... now we've got Jose Fernandez and anyone who hated the 2012 "fire sale" has already forgotten about it.

I would be more afraid that people are just going to not care about the team than be angry. That's the real threat. Once people stop caring you end up like the Panthers are, completely irrelevant and forgotten by most.

I saw no denial, only a lame comment. The deal on the park was corrupt, the team lied, the government believed them (what a surprise) tax collections will not make the bond payment, you put an inferior produce [sic] on the field buy [sic] cry when another team does the same thing. [Who is crying?] Now is it your fault [no, that's the public's fault] the elected officials are stupid? (Some may have received something of value for their vote) No. Only someone involved with this cluster could defend it.

 

The deal on the park was corrupt? Please explain exactly what about the "deal" on the park was "corrupt." We eagerly await your inside information.

 

The team lied? Please detail the "lies." This could be hot stuff. The SEC would be interested. We eagerly await your revelations.

 

Tax collections will not make the bond payment? That's already been demonstrated to be totally false, see a few posts above. I guess you didn't bother to read the thread before spouting more lame BS. What a surprise.

 

And, yes, usually elected officials are stupid. Especially when it comes to money or economics. Perhaps even more stupid than you are, although that's hard to imagine.

 

And, no, I'm not involved with the stadium deal other than to comment on it at length. Usually to take apart juvenile attacks on it like the one you just made.

I would be more afraid that people are just going to not care about the team than be angry. That's the real threat. Once people stop caring you end up like the Panthers are, completely irrelevant and forgotten by most.

 

That actually has been happening. There is a whole lost generation of "potential" hardcore fans lost in Miami, because Loria has so bungled the teams public image.

I think you worry too much. And I won't wait for your extensive survey of the lost "generation of "potential" hardcore fans" since it consists of anecdotes which you can't be bothered to provide.

 

Take heart. Loria won't own the team forever. Not to mention that people have short memories. A winning season or two and they'll be the best thing since sliced bread.

A winning season or two and they'll be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Much easier said than done, apparently.

A winning season or two and they'll be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

Until they sell off all of the players the next season.