This thread has reached 3 pages, way more than I even expected. Clearly I feel Redmond and company might use this jab as motivation. And I know you guys rag on Hechavarria but I would clearly be offended if I were a member of the regular 2013 lineup with Stanton, Hechavarria, yelich arguably, ozuna, and perhaps Mathis. You never know. Baseball is crazy so anything can happen.

Are you drunk? I would be offended just by being in a lineup with Hechavarria and Mathis.

No I'm not drunk. I don't drink. My friend lost his father due to severe alcoholism. So if you want to blast me for a simple opinion then wow, I hate to see how classy you are in person.

Again, probably just a PR move. "We raised our prices because of you guys, our fans paid that raised price to see the world champs, and you gave us garbage, we care about our fans," etc etc. That's where my argument stands. I'm not typically one to go against the front office (publicly), but that's really all this is, I believe.

 

Agree. Trying to make themself look good in the eyes of the fans. I normally go to this game every year and have never seen no regular starters. Can't say it's always been at least 4 because I never counted or took much notice. This game is always priced at the super premium, even when the Sox had a bad season the year before. Ditto for when they play the Cards here. And usually sold out, or very close to it. If the fans were to say something it would go unnoticed. But someone from the FO says something and...............

 

I don't ever remember any team sending a lineup like that. Even in a split squad game. They spend the night here because they play the Cards one day and us the next, so I would wonder what their lineup was like the day before vs the Cards.

This is really a story about how just how lazy and ignorant the local media are. Puff up some BS because it's easy to do. That's then picked up by the equally lazy national media because it's great fun to bash the Marlins.

 

13 of 15 stories on Google's first page were about the "outrage" attributed to someone with no name. A "source." More likely something made-up after hearing the "source" say something vague about the Marlins being disappointed in the crummy team the Sox sent over on the theory that it would disappoint Sox fans.

 

Boston's GM apologized to Hill. Of his own accord, Hill didn't ask for it. And, as Hill said, there is no procedure to complain to MLB (so the Marlins obviously didn't do so) and MLB monitors ST line-ups on their own. Maybe MLB looks further into it because of the press coverage and maybe fines Boston, Hill didn't seem to care one way or the other.

 

Teams are supposed to follow the rules. Boston didn't, which is why Hill got an apology he never asked for, in an effort to tamp down the "controversy." It should have ended at that.

 

As far as I can tell, the most pissed-off people were Boston fans who discovered that the only 2013 Sock on the field worth talking about was Salty, now a Marlin. Good thing he was there, too, otherwise there might have been a riot.

 

Instead, Henry apparently felt compelled to run his snarky yap. With any luck, Selig will make an example of Henry and fine him a stiff one.

 

I'm still waiting for the lame bastards in the "media" to find even one "taxpayer" who has been "screwed" by Loria. Where is this local Miami guy or gal who has been staying hundreds of times, or even tens of times, or even once in a local hotel such that he or she had to pay the hotel bed-tax? Surely they can find at least one poor slob who has been carrying on an extra-marital affair that necessitated the utilization of a local hotel.

 

Of course, then they would also have to explain how that person was screwed by Loria because of a hotel bed-tax that has existed for decades before the stadium -- owned by M-D county -- or Loria benefited from it.

 

No other local taxpayer has paid a cent towards the stadium. When will the media get around to admitting that fact instead of promoting yet another stupid Marlin-bashing story?

If the Marlins were being fan friendly they wouldn't have jacked up the prices for an exhibition game.

 

You mean the Marlins shouldn't raise prices for "prime" games like just about every other team in every sport these days? Most teams are using dynamic pricing for spring training games too. When the Orioles, Braves, or Phillies charge more for games against the Red Sox or Yankees games (which they are doing) it's not a big deal...but there is outrage when the Marlins do it? Seems fair. It's good business strategy and 7000 people willingly paid the price. I don't see the problem.

This is really a story about how just how lazy and ignorant the local media are. Puff up some BS because it's easy to do. That's then picked up by the equally lazy national media because it's great fun to bash the Marlins.

 

13 of 15 stories on Google's first page were about the "outrage" attributed to someone with no name. A "source." More likely something made-up after hearing the "source" say something vague about the Marlins being disappointed in the crummy team the Sox sent over on the theory that it would disappoint Sox fans.

 

Boston's GM apologized to Hill. Of his own accord, Hill didn't ask for it. And, as Hill said, there is no procedure to complain to MLB (so the Marlins obviously didn't do so) and MLB monitors ST line-ups on their own. Maybe MLB looks further into it because of the press coverage and maybe fines Boston, Hill didn't seem to care one way or the other.

 

Teams are supposed to follow the rules. Boston didn't, which is why Hill got an apology he never asked for, in an effort to tamp down the "controversy." It should have ended at that.

 

As far as I can tell, the most pissed-off people were Boston fans who discovered that the only 2013 Sock on the field worth talking about was Salty, now a Marlin. Good thing he was there, too, otherwise there might have been a riot.

 

Instead, Henry apparently felt compelled to run his snarky yap. With any luck, Selig will make an example of Henry and fine him a stiff one.

 

I'm still waiting for the lame bastards in the "media" to find even one "taxpayer" who has been "screwed" by Loria. Where is this local Miami guy or gal who has been staying hundreds of times, or even tens of times, or even once in a local hotel such that he or she had to pay the hotel bed-tax? Surely they can find at least one poor slob who has been carrying on an extra-marital affair that necessitated the utilization of a local hotel.

 

Of course, then they would also have to explain how that person was screwed by Loria because of a hotel bed-tax that has existed for decades before the stadium -- owned by M-D county -- or Loria benefited from it.

 

No other local taxpayer has paid a cent towards the stadium. When will the media get around to admitting that fact instead of promoting yet another stupid Marlin-bashing story?

 

THIS! I'm still waiting to hear from someone how their lives have been so negatively effected by the stadium being built. As if Marlins Park didn't exist, Miami's schools would be the best in country and we'd have police on every corner. Loria sucks as an owner, fine. But can we just stop pretending that the stadium is some kind of drain on our area? If the crooks running Miami-Dade hadn't done this deal, they would have just spent the money on something else.

Mr. Henry should apologize for his part in the Marlins being in the situation they're in now. As I recall he was too poor to put money into the Marlins, but now has money flowing out of his ass to fund the Red Sox! He's just another example of what is wrong with Major League Baseball

Mr. Henry can just Suck It!!

Why should he apologize? It's almost like asking someone to apologize for quitting his job because he found another one that was much better and paid a whole lot more

I felt it was a huge blow to the franchise when we lost John Henry, but that was all on Bud Selig not on anyone else, He forced Loria on us...This was after Loria ran the Montreal franchise to the ground

Remember that "Red Sox arrogance" I referenced? Check out this article: http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2014/03/marlins_prove_again_why_theyre_a_super_premium_jok.mobile.html

 

Basically slander. And the douce that wrote it doesn't even have a byline (at least not on my phone) so I can write his stupid ass.

THIS! I'm still waiting to hear from someone how their lives have been so negatively effected by the stadium being built. As if Marlins Park didn't exist, Miami's schools would be the best in country and we'd have police on every corner. Loria sucks as an owner, fine. But can we just stop pretending that the stadium is some kind of drain on our area? If the crooks running Miami-Dade hadn't done this deal, they would have just spent the money on something else.

 

The only people who are really mad are the Dolphins, because Loria got to the money before they did. About 5 years before they even tried.

 

1% of the 6% hotel bed-tax is dedicated to sports facilities. It can't be spent on teachers or cops. And Loria got the stadium built with no increase in the tax rate. Same old 6% hotel bed-tax as always. The Dolphins want to get money from the hotel bed-tax honey-pot by increasing the tax rate. 7% anyone? How about 8%?

 

The only people whose lives have been significantly affected are those who don't have jobs because the tax adversely affects tourism -- every year, some people and conventions go elsewhere because of the tax. The individuals who are affected don't even realize that they're victims of the tax. They have no idea that there would be more tourism and conventions and local jobs if the 6% bed-tax was 3% or zero, inducing more tourism.

 

It'll be a cold day in hell before we see the local media ignoramuses laying out the case for lower hotel bed-taxes. Too complicated. Never mind that they can't find a single local taxpayer "victim" who was "screwed" by Loria. Much easier to yammer about BS and bash the Marlins.

No I'm not drunk. I don't drink. My friend lost his father due to severe alcoholism. So if you want to blast me for a simple opinion then wow, I hate to see how classy you are in person.

My bad, sorry. I had to read your post a couple times to get what you were saying.

Henry is an owner and acted like a child, regardless of the Marlins position. Mostly, Henry is still pouting that he was taken to school by Wayne. Wayne slapped him around and he paid too much for the Marlins. Thus, he gets in his shots, although he has no reason to since he "found" the money to buy the BoSox.

Remember that "Red Sox arrogance" I referenced? Check out this article: http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2014/03/marlins_prove_again_why_theyre_a_super_premium_jok.mobile.html

 

Basically slander. And the douce that wrote it doesn't even have a byline (at least not on my phone) so I can write his stupid ass.

No it's not slander, it's actually factual, the team it's front office have proven to be ,well awful, they won 62 games last year only signed washed up FA's, if any show much will trade them for someone cheaper.

No it's not slander, it's actually factual, the team it's front office have proven to be ,well awful, they won 62 games last year only signed washed up FA's, if any show much will trade them for someone cheaper.

 

The only part that's factual is that we won 62 games. The writer is an asshole, and nothing beyond that is fact.

For what its worth, Red Sox were fined by MLB for the Roster they traveled with to Jupiter against the Marlins.

Well there ya go. Case closed.

No byline but the author's name is Eric Wilbur. And there are plenty of other facts in the piece besides the 100 losses. There's the fact that the Marlins fleeced the locals for the stadium. Samson admitted as much in his Survivor bio.

 

Look, Wilbur is yet another media hack taking easy shots at the Marlins FO. They are totally deserved shots, but easy shots nonetheless.

If you don't want them to take a shot, don't make yourself a easy target.

They have made themselves an easy target.

No byline but the author's name is Eric Wilbur. And there are plenty of other facts in the piece besides the 100 losses. There's the fact that the Marlins fleeced the locals for the stadium. Samson admitted as much in his Survivor bio.

 

Look, Wilbur is yet another media hack taking easy shots at the Marlins FO. They are totally deserved shots, but easy shots nonetheless.

 

AGAIN, NOT A FACT.

 

Locals paid for MAYBE 2% of Marlins Park. A perfect reason why this article is slander and a joke.

When I say locals, I meant local governments. Here is what the article says:

 

"Only Tampa Bay (18,645), which fielded a playoff team, had a worse average attendance in 2013 than the Marlins (19,584), despite a new ballpark for which the franchise fleeced Miami-Dade County to pay the majority of the bill. Some $376.3 million, plus another $132.5 million from the city of Miami proper."

 

Samson did fleece Miami-Dade County. The Marlins had a substantial amount of cash saved up but claimed poverty.

Locals now means "local government"?

 

That's total rubbish. The government contributions (city and county) come entirely from the 1% dedicated sports facility portion of the 6% hotel bed-tax. Nobody fleeced anyone other than tourists and convention-goers. And those people who don't have jobs because the bed-tax exists, but all of that's the fault of local governments, not the Marlins -- the 6% bed-tax predates the existence of the Marlins.

 

The only way any actual local pays even one penny is if 1) he or she stays in a local hotel or 2) ultimately bed-tax revenues are insufficient to pay all bond principal and interest and general revenue has to be used.

I personally consider any 'fleece' of the local government to be an act of courage and of utmost conviction.

Locals now means "local government"?

 

That's total rubbish. The government contributions (city and county) come entirely from the 1% dedicated sports facility portion of the 6% hotel bed-tax. Nobody fleeced anyone other than tourists and convention-goers. And those people who don't have jobs because the bed-tax exists, but all of that's the fault of local governments, not the Marlins -- the 6% bed-tax predates the existence of the Marlins.

 

The only way any actual local pays even one penny is if 1) he or she stays in a local hotel or 2) ultimately bed-tax revenues are insufficient to pay all bond principle and interest and general revenue has to be used.

 

While it's true that the bed tax cannot be used for any projects, it CAN be used for other things besides building stadiums. Check out this analysis in Politifact Florida:

 

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/mar/05/jeffrey-loria/marlins-owner-jeff-loria-says-tourists-not-taxpaye/

 

Also 50 million came from property taxes, not the bed tax. That's 50 million that Loria easily could have chipped in to spare taxpayer expense.

 

And your final point is very interesting. Since the stadium deal went down, weve seen cities like Fresno and Detroit go bankrupt. The County had to borrow its share of construction costs and the interest is going to wind up costing billions. If the tourist industry dries up because of widespread recession or because of a catastrophic hurricane, the bed tax may not cover the debt payments and the taxpayers may very well pick up the tab.

Found this little nugget from a Sep 2009 NY Times article on the stadium:

 

Lawmakers dismiss concerns that the general fund, which pays for public services like the police and schools, will have to be tapped if hotel taxes come up short.

 

“We contemplated a downturn in the economy over the next several years and slow growth after that,� said George Burgess, the manager of Miami-Dade County. “The timing of the payments was to allow for significant time for the tourist economy to rebound.�

 

Tourism, however, is no sure bet. The number of visitors in South Florida dropped after Hurricane Andrew in 1992 and again after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. And in the first seven months this year, hotel tax receipts in metropolitan Miami fell 18.5 percent from the same period in 2008, according to government figures"

* * *

As the recession has revealed, some conservative forecasts elsewhere proved too optimistic. In 1996, officials in Hamilton County, Ohio, expected their local sales tax revenue to grow 3 percent a year when they agreed to add a half-penny to pay for stadiums for the Cincinnati Reds and the Bengals. Instead, it has since grown 1.6 percent per year on average and fallen nearly 10 percent this year, forcing lawmakers to consider cutting the schools budget.

 

“Cincinnati is a smaller market, but it underscores that all these projects have risks, and Miami has to understand in the depths of this recession it may take longer to recover than people think,� said Mark Rosentraub, the author of “Major League Losers,� which examined stadium deals nationwide. Rosentraub called Miami’s agreement “reckless."

 

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/sports/baseball/21marlins.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0:

One more point.

 

For those who claim that the stadium did not cost local taxpayers...

 

If the Marlins hadn't fleeced the local government, then the Dolphins would have gotten the stadium improvements. If the Dolphins had made the stadium improvements, then Dolphins Stadium would have gotten at least one of the upcoming Super Bowls. Which would have brought a LOT more economic bang for the buck for the community than Marlins Park has brought to Little Havana. Which would have resulted in higher tax revenues.

 

I'm happy that the Marlins got their stadium, don't get me wrong. But any claim that the stadium didn't cost us all dearly is false.

While it's true that the bed tax cannot be used for any projects, it CAN be used for other things besides building stadiums. Check out this analysis in Politifact Florida:

 

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2013/mar/05/jeffrey-loria/marlins-owner-jeff-loria-says-tourists-not-taxpaye/

 

Also 50 million came from property taxes, not the bed tax. That's 50 million that Loria easily could have chipped in to spare taxpayer expense.

 

And your final point is very interesting. Since the stadium deal went down, weve [sic] seen cities like Fresno and Detroit go bankrupt. The County had to borrow its share of construction costs and the interest is going to wind up costing billions. If the tourist industry dries up because of widespread recession or because of a catastrophic hurricane, the bed tax may not cover the debt payments and the taxpayers may very we'll pick up the tab.

 

More rubbish.

 

No, the 1% Professional Sports Facilities Franchise Tax can't be "used for other things":

 

Professional Sports Facilities Franchise Tax

This tax is dedicated to pay debt service on county bonds issued to support professional sports franchise facilities such as the Miami-Homestead Motor Speedway, the Crandon International Tennis Center, Crandon Golf Course, Homestead Baseball Stadium, Country Club of Miami, the Orange Bowl, the Miami Arena, and land for the American Airlines Arena.

http://www.miamidade.gov/taxcollector/tourist-tax-expenditures.asp

 

The clowns at Politifact attempt to BS their readers by confusing the sports portion (1% of the 6%) with other parts of the bed-tax: the Convention Development tax (3% of the 6%) and the Tourist Development tax (2% of the 6%.) Those other parts are mainly used for other things.

 

A very tiny part of the total CDT tax is actually being used for the ballpark. $1 of CDT for every $4 of PSF tax. And the CDT tax is 3 times as large, so it's a 15:1 ratio in terms of receipts. That tiny CDT portion could be used for "other things," such as its current use for the Miami Art Museum, Historical Association of Southern Florida, Museum of Science and Space Transit Planetarium, Lyric Theater, the Gusman Center for the Performing Arts, Colony Theater, Manuel Artime Performing Arts Center, etc., etc. If you think those uses are better than a ballpark, more power to you, but it's a minor amount.

 

As for the 50 million, that was an amount authorized by the County in 2007 as Project 50 "Renovate the Orange Bowl." Later changed to Project 50A "Marlins Ballpark." That wasn't Loria's idea, it was done by the county commissioners. The county had already decided to stick local taxpayers with the costs of upgrading the Orange Bowl. Blame the politicians, not Loria.

http://www.miamidade.gov/govaction/legistarfiles/MinMatters/Y2009/090821min.pdf

 

And, no, Loria couldn't have "easily chipped in" 50 mill. But, you do seem to be good at spending his money.

 

Politifact is a total joke. In the face of Loria being 100% correct, they decide that he's only "half-right."

 

Finally, Miami is not Detroit, at least not yet. As worried as you may be about recessions and hurricanes, we just experienced a severe recession and hotel bed-taxes suffered a less-than 10% dip and are now running at a rate about 50% higher than the previous peak in 2008.

 

Total bed-taxes:

2008 - 3.7 mill

2009 - 3.4 mill

2010 - 4.1 mill

2011 - 4.8 mill

2012 - 5.0 mill

2013 - 5.6 mill

http://www.miamidade.gov/taxcollector/library/reports/room-tax-history.xls

 

Looking back further, hurricane Andrew had zero effect. 9-11 had a one year effect of about 10% followed by a new high in revenue two years later.

http://www.miamidade.gov/taxcollector/library/reports/tax-distribution.xls

 

5 years later, actual revenue history far exceeds any projections of future bed-tax revenue used when the bonds were issued. Short of a nuclear war, the odds of even a dime of general revenue being needed to pay bond interest and principal are approximately zero.

 

Loria was entirely correct. All newly allocated revenue going to the benefit of the new stadium will come from people who stay in hotels. Loria didn't cause an increase in any tax rate, and he didn't cause a dime that the county hadn't already decided to spend to come out of the hide of any local taxpayer.

 

So, when are you gonna give up? You've been peddling your line of "Loria cheated/swindled/fleeced/etc., etc. the local taxpayers" BS forever. It just ain't true, no matter how many times you repeat it.