Hechavarria's Game-Saving Catch

[FightingFish00x]

Happy Sunday everyone!

 

I can't say I'm new to the boards because I've been visiting the site for years, but this is my first post in ages. I couldn't remember my old login so I had no choice but to start from scratch. Anyways I'm glad to be back and look forward to participating over the last 34 games of the season as the Marlins try to sneak into the playoffs.

 

I thought this deserved a thread of its own. Considering the circumstances, Hechavarria's catch is probably one of the best defensive plays we've seen all season. Granted the Marlins didn't win the game --I'm still upset at the fact that we lost when we had the opportunity to gain ground-- but it was still an incredible, game-saving catch nonetheless and it shows that our team will do just about anything to win. I've been impressed by Hechavarria's improvement at shortstop this season as well as behind the plate. Yes he's never going to hit for power, or drive in an insane amount of runs, but Adeiny is a big part of this team and has come through clutch multiple times lately both offensively and defensively. At the beginning of the season, I thought we may need to eventually replace Adeiny but I think I've changed my mind. The 7-15 game stretch that we played without Hechavarria reminded me of how important he is to this ball club. At 25, I still think there's room for improvement but I'm content with the progress he's made so far and I look forward to having him on the team for years to come.

 

Check out the link below:

 

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11400893

 

One question: is there any way to post videos directly to the site? Or is including a link the only way to upload videos?

 

Go Fish!

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

It was an absolutely amazing play, made more incredible by the circumstances. BUT if you watch the play closely, it shows a lot about what I've always said about Hech. His first step when the ball hits the bat was IN, then he had to adjust and run straight back. He recovered and saved the game, but it shows that maybe another SS makes that play with less effort.

[FightingFish00x]

It was an absolutely amazing play, made more incredible by the circumstances. BUT if you watch the play closely, it shows a lot about what I've always said about Hech. His first step when the ball hits the bat was IN, then he had to adjust and run straight back. He recovered and saved the game, but it shows that maybe another SS makes that play with less effort.

 

Personally, I thought he recovered pretty well and covered a lot of ground to put himself in position to make the catch. Maybe he's not 100% polished but he's shown flashes of game-changing defense, especially over the last couple of months. I also want to see him hit second instead of Solano. Or possibly keep Baker at second. He deserves more starts in my opinion.

 

 

[Guest Vince0926]

Personally, I thought he recovered pretty well and covered a lot of ground to put himself in position to make the catch. Maybe he's not 100% polished but he's shown flashes of game-changing defense, especially over the last couple of months. I also want to see him hit second instead of Solano. Or possibly keep Baker at second. He deserves more starts in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

Baker second? Yup perfect spot. However...him hitting fourth doesnt look bad to me.

[SongInTheAir]

Personally, I thought he recovered pretty well and covered a lot of ground to put himself in position to make the catch. Maybe he's not 100% polished but he's shown flashes of game-changing defense, especially over the last couple of months. I also want to see him hit second instead of Solano. Or possibly keep Baker at second. He deserves more starts in my opinion.

 

 

 

You're absolutely right, he made a great recovery and indeed covered a ton of ground. My point was that a legitimately great shortstop like Cozart or Simmons has the proper first step and doesn't need to either recover or cover that much ground. I didn't mean to say it wasn't a great play, it certainly was. I just noticed his improper first step and thought it was telling of why defensive metrics don't like him nearly as much as the eye test does. Hech makes a ton of excellent diving plays that other guys can make without leaving their feet. He's frustrating because he clearly has the tools to be an elite defender, but the instincts just aren't there. I assume that's why he's a below average baserunner despite his above average speed.

[pollythewog]

song is being diplomatic about the whole thing but hech is a mediorce defender AT BEST. As he said, watch that play again, he got a shitty ass jump on the ball.

 

 

[Wild Card]

You guys are being pretty harsh. You're always taught to instinctively go in on the ball, not back, on your first step. You also seem to forget how much that ball probably carried with the wind blowing out and the thin air helping it carry. At Marlins Park that ball probably barely makes it past the infield.

[Piazza31]

At Marlins Park that ball probably barely makes it past the infield.

 

 

 

Pretty sure each base is 90 feet from another at all parks.

[FightingFish00x]

You guys are being pretty harsh. You're always taught to instinctively go in on the ball, not back, on your first step. You also seem to forget how much that ball probably carried with the wind blowing out and the thin air helping it carry. At Marlins Park that ball probably barely makes it past the infield.

 

This is an excellent point. Most infielders are taught to take a step forward or perform a small jump before the ball is hit in order to avoid being caught flat footed. Even if Hechavarria did take his first step forward he recovered very nicely and took a direct route to the ball. I disagree with Song's statement that Simmons or Cozart would've made it look easy.

 

 

[Michael]

You guys are being pretty harsh. You're always taught to instinctively go in on the ball, not back, on your first step.

 

For a ground ball, yes. For a fly ball, it's the opposite, especially a pop-up. First step back, then adjust as needed.

 

At least, that was my experience and what I was taught as both an outfielder and infielder. I played all outfield spots and shortstop.

 

 

[Michael]

This is an excellent point. Most infielders are taught to take a step forward or perform a small jump before the ball is hit in order to avoid being caught flat footed. Even if Hechavarria did take his first step forward he recovered very nicely and took a direct route to the ball. I disagree with Song's statement that Simmons or Cozart would've made it look easy.

 

Simmons is a different breed - he would have indeed made it look easy. Maybe a basket catch at worst.

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

As a fielder, your first step is ALWAYS back on a fly ball or pop up, regardless of position. The thought process behind it being twofold:

 

1. it's much easier to catch a ball in front of you than behind you

 

2. if you end up missing it anyway, it's better for it to be in front of you where you can pick it up than behind you where you'll have to chase it.

 

 

[FightingFish00x]

For a ground ball, yes. For a fly ball, it's the opposite, especially a pop-up. First step back, then adjust as needed.

 

At least, that was my experience and what I was taught as both an outfielder and infielder. I played all outfield spots and shortstop.

 

You're right. The rules are different for ground balls and fly balls. However before the ball is hit a good number of infielders take a step towards the plate to help keep themselves in an active position. That may have been why Hechavarria's first step was forward.

 

 

[Michael]

You're right. The rules are different for ground balls and fly balls. However before the ball is hit a good number of infielders take a step towards the plate to help keep themselves in an active position. That may have been why Hechavarria's first step was forward.

 

During the pitch, they do a small jump, or, yes, as you said, a step towards the plate, but a very small step - his first step after contact should not have been in. Should be in your mind subconsciously, if you have to look up after contact, back immediately. Hech just makes things look good *shrug*

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

Guys, PLEASE read this, from a writer with no rooting interest either for or against the Marlins (Sullivan is a Mariners fan)

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-can-we-make-sense-of-adeiny-hechavarria/

 

 

[Rydawg]

Guys, PLEASE read this, from a writer with no rooting interest either for or against the Marlins (Sullivan is a Mariners fan)

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-can-we-make-sense-of-adeiny-hechavarria/

 

 

It's basically just the same things that have been argued already. He is pointing to the same advanced metrics that the "eye test" crowd including myself, don't agree with , or give any merit to.

 

The rest is just speculation on his part as to what the Marlins might or might not think. What I find interesting is that he quoted Bryan Price on Cozart (which is his own SS) but if you ask Red he would say the same thing about Hech. I found that to be irrelevant.

 

Also, he draws a picture of how the Marlins FO, and Marlins players are the only ones that have a high opinion of Hech's defense and that is just not the case. From what Tommy and Rich have said on TV, there have been plenty of other teams that have marveled at Hech's defense including the Cardinals coaches and if I'm not mistaken they even mentioned the Reds coaches though I'm not 100% about that. The point is that there are plenty of baseball people around the league that agree with the Marlins. Hech's detractors are mainly from the advanced metrics community.

 

All in all it was an interesting read but it's not going to change anyone's mind and it really didn't settle the debate.

 

 

[Rydawg]

It was an absolutely amazing play, made more incredible by the circumstances. BUT if you watch the play closely, it shows a lot about what I've always said about Hech. His first step when the ball hits the bat was IN, then he had to adjust and run straight back. He recovered and saved the game, but it shows that maybe another SS makes that play with less effort.

 

 

I have only been able to see one angle of the video and that one already shows Hech in full sprint towards the outfield. Do you have a link or can you post a video that shows that first step? It's an honest question. I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just interested to see what you saw. Thanks

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

I have only been able to see one angle of the video and that one already shows Hech in full sprint towards the outfield. Do you have a link or can you post a video that shows that first step? It's an honest question. I'm not being sarcastic or anything I'm just interested to see what you saw. Thanks

 

The second angle of this video shows what I'm talking about:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/11493214/v35621977/must-c-catch-hechavarria-spoils-walkoff-opportunity/?c_id=mlb

 

It isn't by any means an egregious step in the wrong direction, but it certainly isn't the way a guy like Simmons or Cozart would react to the same play.

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

It's basically just the same things that have been argued already. He is pointing to the same advanced metrics that the "eye test" crowd including myself, don't agree with , or give any merit to.

 

The rest is just speculation on his part as to what the Marlins might or might not think. What I find interesting is that he quoted Bryan Price on Cozart (which is his own SS) but if you ask Red he would say the same thing about Hech. I found that to be irrelevant.

 

Also, he draws a picture of how the Marlins FO, and Marlins players are the only ones that have a high opinion of Hech's defense and that is just not the case. From what Tommy and Rich have said on TV, there have been plenty of other teams that have marveled at Hech's defense including the Cardinals coaches and if I'm not mistaken they even mentioned the Reds coaches though I'm not 100% about that. The point is that there are plenty of baseball people around the league that agree with the Marlins. Hech's detractors are mainly from the advanced metrics community.

 

All in all it was an interesting read but it's not going to change anyone's mind and it really didn't settle the debate.

 

I agree about the comments from Price and Cozart. That added nothing to the article and an editor should have mentioned that to the writer. What I found most interesting was the BABIP metrics mentioned in there. For any given position, there is an area that player is meant to cover. For the area of SS, the Marlins are allowing a lot of hits to get through. Now, that could be an issue with positioning, but I think the bottom line is that Hech is an excellent defender as long as the ball is near him. His lack of range (which is due to a lack of proper instincts, in my opinion) is what keeps him from being elite.

 

I like defensive metrics focusing on range in a case like this because when you see a ball go up the middle or in the hole between short and third you might think that's a hit no matter what, but in reality there are guys who get to those balls. Conversely, we see Hech make a diving play and think it was a play no other fielder makes when in fact other guys are getting to those balls without ever leaving their feet.

 

 

[Brotato92]

It looked more like hech was planting his foot to turn and run opposed to taking a step forward.

[SongInTheAir]

It looked more like hech was planting his foot to turn and run opposed to taking a step forward.

 

That could be the case, but he still got a slower first step than you would see from other guys.

 

A ball like this hit against the Marlins is getting picked up by Christian Yelich in left field:

 

 

 

[SilverBullet]

Guys, PLEASE read this, from a writer with no rooting interest either for or against the Marlins (Sullivan is a Mariners fan)

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-can-we-make-sense-of-adeiny-hechavarria/

 

I liked this read. Fair enough analzying both arguments for Hech. Kinda calling it a misunderstanding so far is a decent explanation for now.

 

 

[pollythewog]

so not only can our IF not hit, they can't field either

 

The Marlins have allowed baseball’s second-highest BABIP on groundball

 

Regarding AH, he ranks in the bottom third of BABIP on groundballs. IMO that's a pretty good way to realize that he just isn't that good at defense.

 

 

[SongInTheAir]

so not only can our IF not hit, they can't field either

 

The Marlins have allowed baseball’s second-highest BABIP on groundball

 

Regarding AH, he ranks in the bottom third of BABIP on groundballs. IMO that's a pretty good way to realize that he just isn't that good at defense.

 

Exactly. There are a certain number of balls hit into every fielder's "zone". On balls hit into Hech's "zone", he is below average and turning them into outs. That's not even an advanced metric, really.

 

If:

 

# of balls in zone made into outs

 

------------------------------------------ = less than average, then Hech must be below average.

 

total # of balls in zone

 

Is there a way to legitimately argue that point without ignoring the statistic?

 

 

[Rydawg]

Song, thanks for posting the link to the video.

 

Although I don't really see a step towards the infield, I do see where he shuffled his feet and there was a very slight hesitation. I would be curious to see another shortstop react to a similar play. If what we are talking about is that only a two or three shortstops in the league get to that ball a fraction earlier then I'm ok with that.

 

I would also argue that Hech's speed more than made up for that slight hesitation and I still think there aren't many other shortstops that make that play. Especially considering the game situation where it was do or die.