Out of the Past

Loria conned S. Florida fans into buying season tickets for one product then offered another....and then refused to give refunds. He has totally gutted a team....to the point that he is making a good bit of money off revenue sharing. He has dangled the franchise to any city that is willing to make an offer. Through his actions he basically has given a big middle finger to all the remaining South Florida fans. He has acted like a man who is trying to extract every bit of value from a business venue before washing his hands of it. All this, and yet some on this board will defend him to his grave. There should be no debate that this man is a terrible owner. Under probably any other ownership we would have had our stadium by now. you seem to forget, he is an owner...his loyalty comes in the form of income...and while it sucks to admit that...thats the way it is for every owner...and trust me...spending like he did last year on the team and still getting poor fan support, didnt exactly make him want to spend another 65 million on a team that couldnt draw...and personally..."gutting" this franchise the way he did made us competitive for the next 10 years at least...he is not a terrible owner and he is closer than any other previous owner to getting us a new stadium...again...he is no saint and has many skeletons in his closet...but lets not burn him at the stake yet...besides...how frustrated would you be dealing with arriola or whatever his name is on a day in, day out basis...its tough and he (along with the best front office in baseball) has done more for this franchise than anyone else has...and i give him props for that Loria has every right to try to make as much money as he can but it sucks to be a fan of a team whose owner looks at the bottom line first and foremost as Loria is doing now. The Marlins are in line to make about $30 to $35 million this year which will put them at the top of MLB in Operating Income. That's great for Loria but it sucks for the fans. Don't confuse the great job done by Beinfest and his people with anything Loria has done. I also have a problem with people like Loria who lie about their finances while looking for welfare which is what he's doing with his hand out for public money for a stadium. If a billionaire wants taxpayers to build him a stadium he should open up his books.

I don't like another day off for Willingham when he's hitting well. If Girardi wants to get Borchard in the lineup then play him in CF and leave Willingham in LF. I doubt Borchard would be any worse defensively than Alfredo and this way you keep Willingham's hot bat in there.

Id kill for Loria to put this team up for sale Me too. The only way the stadium gets built is with an owner willing to put more money in or with an owner who can get the local movers and shakers behind the stadium as they pull the strings of our local government officials. I'm very skeptical about the Hialeah deal and my skepticism grows daily as the $100 million funding continues to grow. The bottom line is Loria can't (or wont) put more money in and he can't get the movers and shakers behind the stadium.

Cabrera is the best close and late hitter on the team so if he's not the best on his team he can't be the best in the league. Close and late is a stat. In a statistic called "close and late" compiled by STATS Inc., Helms tops the National League with a .400 average (14-for-35). He delivered the decisive two-out, two-run double in the eighth inning Thursday that snapped a tie in the Marlins' 9-6 win over the Nationals at RFK Stadium. The "close and late" statistic is determined by "at-bats in the seventh inning or later, with the team either ahead by one run, tied, or with the potential tying run at least on deck." http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...sp&c_id=mlb According the the Marlins website Cabrera has a higher "close and late" OPS than Helms. Helms close and late AVG is very good but there's more to it than AVG. I wonder how he has done with RISP in close and late PAs as he only has 3 RBIs in those situations. Griffey has 20 close and late RBIs so I would assume he has done great in close and late PAs with RISP. Other players have multiple game winning close and late RBIs (I think Griffey and Francour have at least 4 this year, for example) so there's more to it than just AVG when determining who is the best close and late hitter in the league. I'm not knocking Helms' close and late production as I think he has done very well in those situatuions, I'm knocking the homers who say he's the best close and late hitter in the league.

well, i'm glad you aren't our manager then. like i said, i wouldn't have complained if he was pinch hit for, but i see the reasoning behind it. he swung the ball well and there's no one in the bullpen you can trust to take over. you, like always, try to make a mountain out of a molehill. and you, like always, see that Joe can do no wrong I just dont get how if everyone knows the manager is about to do something wrong, how the manager in his few disciples dont see it. Oh well, I hope he has fun in Wrigley next year actually, didn't i start a thread a couple days ago about something girardi should change? nice try though. what he did isn't wrong just because you disagree with it. sorry to inform you, ramp, but just because you have 30,000 posts doesn't make you the voice of right or wrong. do i agree what he did? honestly, if i was manager i probably would have pinch hit helms for willis...but, i see why girardi stuck with him. it wasn't an easy decision to make. um... when did i say i was the voice?... im just voicing my opinion and alot happen to agree with me Yeah, Amezaga grounded out in the 7th but all of this bluster you created just distracts from the fact Hanley Ramirez hurt us much more last night than Alfredo did. Lets break it down: Major at bats/plays by Hanley Ramirez that contributed to the Marlins loss: 1) Top 3rd - With one out and a man on third (Willis who had just tripled), Hanley strikes out again. 2) Bottom 6th - After Lugo reaches on a throwing error by Hanley (not credited, but it was an error), Willis gives up a homerun to Nomar. Honorable mentions include Hanley's strikeout to start the game and his strikeout to start the 8th. Talk all you want about Alfredo's inability to hit with RISP this season, but don't try to tell me he hurt the Marlins more last night than Hanley did with his lackluster play. Hanley thread right here. 12 posts. 214 views. Totally different subject. This is the thread in which people have been venting about last night's game and thanks to Ramp, most has been directed toward Amezaga and Girardi. I am just providing a player last night more deserving of the board's disgust. I have no idea what you expected Hanley to do this year but offensively he has exceeded most expectations and it should come as no surprise that a 22 year old rookie SS is making a lot of errors. He also has 37 SBs in 44 attempts which is pretty good. He's had a fine rookie season and based on his play he looks like a future star so it's ridiculous to jump all over him for one bad game. It's also ridiculous to call for his benching as some have suggested. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. Helms has done well in "close and late" but the best in the NL? Let's get real. With that said, he should have hit for DTrain. statistically. Cabrera is the best close and late hitter on the team so if he's not the best on his team he can't be the best in the league.

inexcusable... you have the best hitter in the NL this year in getting big hits late and you allow Mr .143 with a chance to drive them in. Absolutely absurd. It's an absolute slamdunk decision. Absolute. That's a ridiculous exaggeration. Helms has done well in "close and late" but the best in the NL? Let's get real. With that said, he should have hit for DTrain.

Moehler and Reggie should be dumped. Ross, Borchard and Herges could be okay as backups and middle reliever but I don't care if they stay or leave. Alfredo is okay as the utility IF so keep him. Helms and Borowski will probably get more $$ elsewhere and leave. I wouldn't give up on Mitre. He could be okay as a spot starter or 5th starter just in case some of the others go through sophomore slumps. Has anyone taken the credit for the stupid decision to bring him up after one rehab assignment when he hadn't pitched in about 3 months?

I don't like Preston and never did. One of the best days in Marlins history was the day we dumped him along with CJ. With that said, I would give him a shot. He's not as bad as what we have in CF. I wouldn't give anything of value to get him but I would try to get him.

The thing I have found most disturbing about the whole Girardi controversy these days ? besides the actual incident between him and Loria ? is how the FO has acted AFTER Girardi said there was nothing to the rumors. Some FO sources leaked to the media first that Girardi held back Johnson and Nolasco against their wishes. Then a day or so later FO sources leak to the media that Girardi held back Olivo against their wishes. Not to mention leaking what the aborted press conference was about. What is the point of this after Girardi had gone out of his way to quell rumors that there was a problem? Get Girardi to fire back some tirade publically against the FO so Loria has a legitimate excuse to fire him rather than just because he told Loria to be quiet? A preemptive strike for when Girardi leaves if he decides to trash the Marlins FO? To just embarass Girardi? I'm not sure, but unless Girardi and Loria work things out before the season is through there is a good chance Jack McKeon or Fredi Gonzalez will be donning a Marlins uni next season. I also don't like some in the FO taking shots at Girardi through the media. I think there's a 50/50 chance Girardi wont be the manager next year but I don't see McKeon coming back. If McKeon still wanted to manage the Marlins and Loria / Beinfest still wanted McKeon to manage the Marlins then McKeon wouldn't have "retired" last October.

I wouldn't give a long term contract to a guy who "runs" the way Cabrera "ran" to first last night (*) or to guys who show up to spring training 30 lbs. overweight. If you give long term, big money contracts to guys with questionable attitudes, no matter how talented they are, you're looking to get burned and small payroll teams like the Marlins cannot afford to get burned with bad, expensive contracts. (*) FSN did not show him running and I'm assuming he took so long due to laziness and not because he slipped or anything like that. If he slipped or fell I'm sure Tommy or Rich would have mentioned it. Players have faults. If you only signed the "perfect player" to long-term contracts, then you'd have twenty-five men seeking arbitration every year. To me, it's unquestionable that Miggy needs to be signed. How amazing would it be to KNOW that Miguel will be here for 6 years. He has hall-of-fame talent, let him be our first "franchise player". Lock him up. When the they do sign him long term, I'm throwing a party. Seriously. The Beinfest mantra is to have players outperform their contracts and that has worked very well for him and once Cabrera starts making $15 million per year well I don't think that's a contract that can be outperformed unless he puts up an 1100 OPS or something like that. I would go year by year with him and then trade him for a good, young players once he gets too expensive.

I wouldn't give a long term contract to a guy who "runs" the way Cabrera "ran" to first last night (*) or to guys who show up to spring training 30 lbs. overweight. If you give long term, big money contracts to guys with questionable attitudes, no matter how talented they are, you're looking to get burned and small payroll teams like the Marlins cannot afford to get burned with bad, expensive contracts. (*) FSN did not show him running and I'm assuming he took so long due to laziness and not because he slipped or anything like that. If he slipped or fell I'm sure Tommy or Rich would have mentioned it.

? Girardi has had friends making it known in Chicago that he would like the Cubs job. The Cubs, however, aren't interested. LOS ANGELES - Baseball had its first managerial change of the season this week. But it doesn't count because nothing really changed. Florida owner Jeffrey Loria fired manager Joe Girardi on Sunday afternoon, but before the announcement could be made, Loria reconsidered and Girardi was retained. The blowup came when Loria, who sits beside the Marlins dugout at Dolphin Stadium, was yelling at umpires Sunday and Girardi told him to cool it. The problems, however, go deeper than an in-game blowup. Girardi was Loria's hand-picked manager, but Loria has become concerned about Girardi's controlling personality that has been compared with that of Texas manager Buck Showalter. Problems began during spring training when Girardi belittled suggestions by members of the organization that Ricky Nolasco and Josh Johnson should be in the rotation instead of middle relief, where they opened the season. It was more than a month before Girardi backed down and gave both opportunities to start, which turned out to be a critical factor as the Marlins rebounded from a miserable start to be competitive. Girardi might be wise to heed the words of former big league exec Buzzie Bavasi. "We operated by the Golden Rule," Bavasi said. "He who has the gold rules." No idea what his sources are...some of this stuff he's laying out as fact without the appearance of speculating. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/spor...4909894,00.html There's also another article that says the press-room setup was for Girardi's firing after he told Loria to stuff a sock in it. Sorry if this was already posted somewhere. Some of the local writers said Girardi may have quit and changed his mind but in this article Ringolsby says Loria fired Girardi. We'll probably never know what truly happened. It should be noted that Ringolsby is one of the more respected baseball writers in the country so what he writes carries a bit more weight than what most others write, at least in my book.

And in consideration of what we have on our roster, what we expect from this season and the circumstances that he was signed, that's great. But that doesn't mean he's not below average. If you say he's below average I suppose you must think there are at least 20 catchers that are better than Olivo? Please name 20 catchers that you think are better than Olivo.

Matos was released after last nites game...He has speed and hits for power He also can play Cf. The best is that he would cost us nothing! He is a must as a late addition to this team. Matos is a true player...Send Kool Aid down to triple A to play everyday (although he is playing much better) call him back next month How is it that Reggie at .217 is playing MUCH better? Much better than what or whom? Send him down, it hurts to see his name in the lineup. Reggie's play over the past few weeks, however sporadically it has been, is improved and last night he put the ball in play all 5 times.... baby steps I don't agree. I haven't seen this improved play. His OPS hit a season high of .716 on May 18th and from there took a turn for the worst until it reached .606 on July 1st. From then until now it has stayed in the .606 to .643 range. Right now it's at .622. Last night he went 2 for 5 but also fumbled a ball, missed a cut-off man and made a poor decision on the basepaths. He has been consistently bad all season. He would be best served playing everyday in the minors.

I remember during the 1997 World Series being thoroghly incensed at Bob Costas. It was as obvious as the hair on your head that he was biased against the Marlins. There was just no doubt about it. The only question was why. Was it because he liked the Indians? Was it because he didn't like the concept of the wild-card? Was it beacuse the Marlins were a new team and he wanted to see the old line Cleveland Indians win one after so many year? Couldn't figure out why, but he was 100% biased against the Marlins. The talk shows down here were abuzz with people who felt the same way I did. . . . 2 weeks after the World Series they did a survey that found that 85% of the Marlins fans felt Costas was horribly biased against the Marlins. The survey also showed that 85% of the Indians fans felt Costas was horribly biased against the Indians. . . Good post. I happen to be a big Costas fan (maybe Joe Buck and Tim McCarver will get stranded on an island). Costas is VERY against the Wild Card though. Im sure thats why it sounded as if he was anti Marlins When I watched the last 6 games Costas wasn't doing them (I was in Scotland and a British guy and a Canadian did them) so I don't know what he said during most of the WS games but I know that in addition to his hatred of the WC he's the one who started the "Marlins bought the WS" nonsense. If you didnt watch Costas do the 97' World Series how do you know he started the "Marlins Bought the WS" nonsense? Did you read it somewhere? Im just curious. I happen to think he is in the Top 20 all time greatest baseball announcers ever. I don't remember exactly, maybe I read articles or media articles on the TV coverage, that's a few years ago. I know that in one of his books he did a good job of trashing the WC system, the '97 WS, the '97 Marlins and also discussed the buying of the '97 WS (BTW, we were 5th in payroll). The "bought the WS" crap is meant as a way to belittle the accomplishments of the '97 team and I don't see a valid reason why the '97 Marlins are the first and only team that is widely regarded as having won because they bought the WS. I also like him as an announcer but think he was full of crap regarding the '97 Marlins.

I remember during the 1997 World Series being thoroghly incensed at Bob Costas. It was as obvious as the hair on your head that he was biased against the Marlins. There was just no doubt about it. The only question was why. Was it because he liked the Indians? Was it because he didn't like the concept of the wild-card? Was it beacuse the Marlins were a new team and he wanted to see the old line Cleveland Indians win one after so many year? Couldn't figure out why, but he was 100% biased against the Marlins. The talk shows down here were abuzz with people who felt the same way I did. . . . 2 weeks after the World Series they did a survey that found that 85% of the Marlins fans felt Costas was horribly biased against the Marlins. The survey also showed that 85% of the Indians fans felt Costas was horribly biased against the Indians. . . Good post. I happen to be a big Costas fan (maybe Joe Buck and Tim McCarver will get stranded on an island). Costas is VERY against the Wild Card though. Im sure thats why it sounded as if he was anti Marlins When I watched the last 6 games Costas wasn't doing them (I was in Scotland and a British guy and a Canadian did them) so I don't know what he said during most of the WS games but I know that in addition to his hatred of the WC he's the one who started the "Marlins bought the WS" nonsense.

There was no valid reason for Girardi to argue that call. It wasn't a close call. Although Robinson goes overboard with his arguments last night he had a valid one.

A good leadoff hitter can hit for power. Last I checked what makes a player good at something isn't necessarily that he's bad at an important part of the game. That's like saying a player is a good outfielder because he can't pick groundballs. i think what he was trying to say is ramirez would be better utilized in a different part of the order because of his potential power. a .300+ hitter that can hit 20-25 hr's would be an ideal #2 or 3 hitter. let amezaga leadoff vs. righties. he's hitting over .300 with a .360 obp against righthanded pitching. he works pitchers, too, much like JP used to. against lefties you can let hanley leadoff for now until we find a long-term solution there (alfredo obviously isn't it) JP doesn't work the pitchers. Castillo worked the pitchers. Big difference there.

Edmonds is exactly what we need...a CF with a big bat. Next year he'll be available at a discount but whether he can be had depends on what the budget will be.

It's not at all unusual for a 22 year old SS to make a lot of errors. He's the only one of the young players that has GG potential. He'll be a good defensive SS as he matures.

ALL TIME BEST starting lineup composed of former Marlin greats... Put your diapers on, cause here we go..... CF- Scott Pose- one word: SPLENDID!!!! RF- Darrell Whitmore- Why did he quit professional baseball to become a stock clerk at Albertson's? Some things in this crazy life just don't make any sense. 3B- Kevin Orie- RAW POWER.... I once saw this guy hit a ball almost 400 feet!!! That is almost half the distance of the famed ocean liner "Titanic"!!!!! INCREDIBLE!!!! 1B- Orestes Destrade- His onfield prowess is only rivaled by his work on the acclaimed ESPN series, Baseball Tonight. With such expert analysis as "that team needs to score more runs than the other team in order to win", and "That pitcher needs to hold the other team to less runs than his team is able to score if he is going to win." I am sure that many pitchers emptied their bladders when they caught sight of his scary eyes beneath those thick bifocals. LF- Matias Carillo- before Air Bud, there was Matias Carillo. A capuchan primate from Mexico, Matias was the first non-human to step onto a baseball field and show us all that animals can do more than just taste good and help us determine whether or not a shampoo will cause a rash on our scalps if we wash our hair more than 30 times a day. 2B- Bret Barberie- Bret Barberie was such a baseball purist that he sacrificed millions of dollars and a hall of fame career to level the playing field by retiring at age 29. His move restored balance to the sport. SS- Alex Arias - hahahahaha :notworthy :notworthy C- Jorge Fabregas -HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy Even though the starting lineup consists of finely tuned baseball playing machines, they will occasionally need a rest. It's okay though, because the bench would be so great, because I would have these monsters of pine ready to come in and set the diamond on fire. :thumbup C- Ron Tingley- Everyone knows about the Mendoza line (.200), but some people forget about the Tingley line (.176) And he's the first catcher I've ever seen get a passed ball because he was swatting a mosquito on his forearm as the pitcher was throwing to home plate. :notworthy IF- Dave Magadan- Awesome as hell, but as long as Kevin Orie is still part of this team's history, he will have to come in as a substitute when we are leading by 15 or more runs. With this lineup, that means he'd easily play 150-162 games. :notworthy OF- Junior Felix- HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHA :notworthy It's difficult to pick out 5 starters, because pretty much anyone we've ever had has been so awesome. So I would just let Ryan Bowen throw 6 innings of every game, then bring in Vladamir Nunez to close it out. If there was a tough lefty coming up, I would go with Joe Klink or Felix Heredia. I may go ahead and keep Dennis Springer on the roster just in case Ryan Bowen gets diareah during a game and has to come out of it or something. Springer's record of 6-16 in 1999 always looks like a misprint, which is so cool because it's not, and I love being tricked!!! How'd he do that???? That would be quite a team... I think Dunwoody, Reed and Abercrombie should be on there as well. I would also throw in the Secret Weapon.

I think Girardi was fired at one point, but they took it back. There have already been admissions in the media that the whole press conference thing was reported wrong, but only those who have an agenda continue to report it. The Herald's Baxter and the PBP's Capozzi reported today that Marlins employees were preparing the interview room. I agree with you regarding Berardino having an agenda but do you think Baxter and Capozzi also have an agenda against the Marlins? I don't think they do. I think they're both bad writers but that's it.

I can't remember if the Marlins have ever drafted and molded a really decent power hitter. Miguel Cabrera? Well, to be fair we did not draft Cabs but we did mold him. As far as drafting a "power hitter", we really haven't done too well in that area,that is true, but this team has won two world series with the philosophy always being to build around pitching,speed and defense, not power. who drafted him? He was signed by the Marlins as an undrafted free agent out of Venezuela. He was not eligible for the draft.

What are the future prospects at the plate in the minors ? Also why is it that this organization just never seems to draft and produce good hitters ? :confused I can't remember if the Marlins have ever drafted and molded a really decent power hitter. But after 14 seasons you'd have thought at least one would have come up. In their history the Marlins haven't gotten many good players through the draft. I think the only players we've drafted that have had relatively long and good careers are CJ, Kotsay and Beckett. It looks like JJ, Olsen, Hermida and Willingham may end up having good careers but it's too early to tell. The only undrafted free agents we've signed that have had good careers are Castillo, Gonzalez and Cabrera. Much of our success has come through players acquired through trades and free agency. Hermida has been a disappointment so far. We must remember however, that he was hurt for about a month and his HR and RBI numbers reflect this. I also expected more from Jacobs. Ramirez and Willingham started hot but have come down to earth lately. Ramirez's defense and base-running have also disappointed. The revolving door at CF has still not stopped. For a while Ross seemed to be the answer, but not really. I am very pleased with Uggla and lately Olivo has really impressed me. Cabrera' s offense has been rock solid as expected and his defense at third has improved dramatically since April. Willis has not been sharp. Having an occasional fine game does not make up for the horrible starts he has also had. Johnson and Olsen show a lot of promise. Nolasco and Sanchez can be brilliant some starts and look like the rookies that they are the next. Borowski has done a fine job. Kensing ( now hurt) has been inconsistent in the 8th inning, giving up too many HR. Messenger and Herges have their good and bad days. Moehler is a very good long or middle reliever, not a good starter any more. Pinto has looked good lately. Tankersley is a keeper. Mitre will be back soon and will probably have a chance to start down the stretch run. Amezaga, Borchard and Helms are good bench players. Treanor I guess is OK for a back-up. Abercrombie should be in the minors or retire. For next year (assuming we still have a limited budget) I would suggest: KEEP INFIELDERS: Jacobs, Uggla, Cabrera,Olivo. Give Ramirez time to improve KEEP OUTFIELDERS: Hermida, Willingham KEEP STARTERS: Willis, Johnson, Olsen, Nolasco, Sanches, Mitre KEEP RELIEVERS: Moehler, Tankersley, Borowski KEEP BENCH: Amezaga, Borchard, Helms Trade to try to improve over: Ross, Abercrombie, Treanor, Kensing, Messenger, Herges, In other words, we need what everyone knows. A center fielder with power and a better bullpen, while hoping that our young players mature. I pretty much agree with everything except Moehler. Why keep him? He's good for mop-op duty, nothing more.

wow. how are people still in the dark ages as far as the RBI stat are concerned? Wow. You were not paying attention to what Miguel did his rookie season. I really do feel for you because you missed a pretty amazing display of run production by a 20 year old rookie. With RISP all he did was hit .375 / .396 / .583. In his 96 RISP ABs he had 36 hits meaning he made 60 outs to go along with his 48 RISP RBI. His RISP ratio between outs and RBI of .80 (48 / 60) was the 3rd or 4th highest in the league (I forget). Not too bad for a rookie. Trust me, it really did happen. Again, sorry you missed it.