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Ozzie Smith .262/.337/.328 .978 career fielding % 13 Gold Gloves

Omar Vizquel .274/.341/.358 .984 career fielding % 10 Gold Gloves

 

Ozzie's in, so Omar has to be in.

 

I don't like to throw around best all-time because how would I know, but Omar is the best defensive shortstop I've ever personally seen play.

Yes he's a Hall of Famer.

 

And no he's not going in as a Giants. :plain

Already one in my book.

He's in. Not a true "lock," nor do these gold gloves help him out because, let's be honest, the award is kind of a joke given how many players win based on reputation, but he's a great fielder, he's been around for a long time (kind of the Cal Ripken rule) and while he may not be the best at his position during his time as an active player, he's got the reputation that voters love, and he's never really been a disappointment.

I think hes a hall of famer without a doubt the stats don't lie

yeppers, best Ven SS ever

He's in... but Mays24Bonds25 being a fan of his doesn't help his case

Jack Wilson got robbed for the gold glove, nuff said.

Yes he's a Hall of Famer.

 

And no he's not going in as a Giants. :plain

 

When I saw who created the thread, I thought the exact same thing.

Isnt defense 50 percent of the game?

So Smith and Vizquel received a lot of votes for the gold glove each year by sports writers? So what? As we discussed in the gold glove thread this often comes from reputation alone. Vizquel may have made few errors on routine plays, but I wouldn't label him as spectacular.

 

 

Spectacular is so overrated. Rey Ordonez was "spectacular" and made 30 errors a season. Vizquel isn't spectacular because he makes everything look easy.

Isnt defense 50 percent of the game?

Yes. And if we're going to put Heavy O Limited D players in the HoF, we should also put Heavy D Limited O players in. To answer the poll question, Omar has been in for a while in my opinion.

He's a Hall of Famer.

yeppers, best Ven SS ever

 

 

I think Luis Aparicio might have something to say about that ... but you are right, he is amazing and since I never saw Aparicio play I have to go with you but still, the stories about Aparicio are quite good

 

Yes. And if we're going to put Heavy O Limited D players in the HoF, we should also put Heavy D Limited O players in. To answer the poll question, Omar has been in for a while in my opinion.

 

 

thank you ... I cant stand the fact that defense is overlooled on a daily basis

So Smith and Vizquel received a lot of votes for the gold glove each year by sports writers? So what? As we discussed in the gold glove thread this often comes from reputation alone. Vizquel may have made few errors on routine plays, but I wouldn't label him as spectacular.

 

 

Spectacular is so overrated. Rey Ordonez was "spectacular" and made 30 errors a season. Vizquel isn't spectacular because he makes everything look easy.

 

 

ordo?ez made 27 errors his rookie year, after that he was spectacular and made the routine play.

Isnt defense 50 percent of the game?

 

A great pitcher or a great hitter can have so much more of an impact on a game than a great defender, there is no denying that. Although having a good defensive shortstop is important.

And a poor defensive play can be even more crippling then either as well.

 

See: Buckner, Bill

Vizquel will make the hall but not on the first couple of ballots.

And a poor defensive play can be even more crippling then either as well.

 

See: Buckner, Bill

 

and if the Sox had scored more runs or held the mets to less runs in the 9 innings Buckner wouldn't have been able to make that error in the 10th.

Isnt defense 50 percent of the game?

Yes. And if we're going to put Heavy O Limited D players in the HoF, we should also put Heavy D Limited O players in. To answer the poll question, Omar has been in for a while in my opinion.

 

Technically, yeah. But defense in baseball is not the same as defense in a sport like football where players specialize in it. Of balls hit into play, most are either routine putouts or hits regardless of who the fielder is. And Gold Gloves are not a tremendous indicator of how good somebody is defensively - remember Ozzie played for years on Astroturf.

 

We'll see how this plays out now and in fifteen years when Luis Castillo retires with a trophy case full of Gold Gloves and much better career hitting stats than either Vizquel or Ozzie. Way to early to be thinking about that, and shortstop is the premiere defensive position on the diamond. Then again Bill Mazeroski got in, and it wasn't because of his HR in 1960 (just ask Joe Carter).

He'll get in eventually.

 

I wish the White Sox signed him (remember that rumor?) :shifty

Vizquel put up piddling offensive numbers in one of the greatest offensive eras of all time. Yeah, he's good with the glove, but I can't imagine he saves near enough runs to make up for his below-average offensive abilities.

 

I don't really agree with the arguement that defense is 50% of a player's game, not even a SS. I just think its much easier to impact a game on offense. For example, the difference in runs against between a SS like Vizquel and an average SS is probably something like 25 runs, at the very most. I think 25 is pretty generous. The difference in runs scored between the top offensive SS and the average SS is probably more like 50+ runs.

 

And it would seem like most baseball people agree, because Omar was certainly never paid like a HOFer. His top salary was 6 mil in 2004, which is only a little more than what Alex Gonzalez is likely to get. Most of his career he made 3 mil. I think that says something about the value contemporary baseball minds place on Omar Vizquel.

 

I'm actually really surprised to see so many of you supporting his candidacy because my intial reaction was more like "you got to be kidding me." Seeing all this support has given me a moment's pause, but I'm pretty much over that. There's no way you can put Omar Vizquel in the HOF without watering it down. He doesn't belong.

I don't even know that I disagree with you Mabdul.

 

However,

 

Luis Aparacio .262/.311/.343 .972 fielding

Ozzie Smith .262/.337/.328 .978 fielding

Joe Tinker .262/.308/.353 .938 fielding

Bobby Wallace .268/.332/.358 .938 fielding

Rabbit Maranville .258/.318/.340 .952 fielding

 

Omar Vizquel .274/.341/.358 .984 fielding

 

If those 5 are in the Hall of Fame, Omar has to be. Past precedence says he has to be in the Hall. You don't have to agree that those 5 should be in, but they are, so Omar should be.

 

And yes, this is the powerball era, but the league batting average for the NL this year is identical to that of the NL in 1961, 2 points higher than 1951, and 4 points higher than 1941. None of the 5 above were power hitters and neither is Omar, so I don't think that has much of an impact.

I don't even know that I disagree with you Mabdul.

 

However,

 

Luis Aparacio .262/.311/.343 .972 fielding

Ozzie Smith .262/.337/.328 .978 fielding

Joe Tinker .262/.308/.353 .938 fielding

Bobby Wallace .268/.332/.358 .938 fielding

Rabbit Maranville .258/.318/.340 .952 fielding

 

Omar Vizquel .274/.341/.358 .984 fielding

 

If those 5 are in the Hall of Fame, Omar has to be. Past precedence says he has to be in the Hall. You don't have to agree that those 5 should be in, but they are, so Omar should be.

 

And yes, this is the powerball era, but the league batting average for the NL this year is identical to that of the NL in 1961, 2 points higher than 1951, and 4 points higher than 1941. None of the 5 above were power hitters and neither is Omar, so I don't think that has much of an impact.

 

 

I've never heard of the last two of those guys. Joe Tinker is one of those guys that get called out a lot as a player that doesn't belong in the HOF. He might be the worst player in there, and if you put every SS better than Joe Tinker in the HOF, you'd have to create a separate wing of the HOF.

 

I'm not clear on your last point. Are those numbers just for the 2005 season? What about the 10 years before that?

 

Actually, I just took a look, and Ozzie has an OPS+ of 87 while Vizquel's is 85. In case you don't know, OPS+ is OPS basically normalized to the league average. So, Ozzie was a slightly better hitter--and compared to SS's of his day rather than the whole league, he was probably better than average, whereas Vizquel is probably worse than average. These 20 years or so have kind of changed what's demanded of a SS. I think if you take both players in the context of their era, Ozzie comes out looking a little better. Ozzie was also a better base stealer, FWIW.

 

Also, I'm going to argue just from the numbers that he was a better fielder. For one, the differences in fielding % may be accountable entirely to differences in scoring practices. During Ozzie's career the SS fielding percentage was .966. During Vizquel's, it was .972. They're both .012 above the mean. Maybe scorers these days are less likely to give errors. It certainly wouldn't surprise me--I feel like they let fielders off the hook more these days than they used to.

 

But if you look at the range factors, there's where the big difference comes in. Ozzie has a RF of 5.03, compared to a league average of 4.10. Vizquel's RF is 4.42, compared to a league average of 4.12.

 

That's a HUGE difference. So, I am arguing that Ozzie is better than Vizquel at all facets of the game.

 

As for the other guys on that list, 3 of them probably played before even my father was born, and I don't think its fair to use them as a comparison, and I just don't have time this second to do the comparison thing with Aparicio. BUT even if Vizquel turns out to be better than Aparicio, I don't really agree with the least common denominator arguement. If one mistake was made putting Aparicio in, let's not make another one now.