Long time lurker chiming in again. I put these remarks up in another thread, but I think its paramount that everyone look at the most recent move from this prospective so I started a seperate thread, moderators can handle as they see fit...

 

In case some of you are having trouble reading the writing on the wall with the prospects we've given up in the Urbina and Conine deals, UNLESS WE WIN NOW THIS TEAM WON'T BE IN FLA BY THE TIME THOSE GUYS ARE READY. Some of you are speaking like baseball in South Florida in 2005 and beyond is a certainty. Thats certainly not the case, at this point I'd say the smart money is on relocation at the very least, contraction continues to loom as well.

 

Basically what your seeing here is an organization that understands that the future of baseball in South Florida is playing out right now. The window of opportunity for saving baseball in South Florida is closing. A playoff run would go along way towards cementing a stadium deal and with it the Marlins future. This is the critical moment in franchise history.

 

In other words, if we just sat on our hands and stockpiled prospects for 2005 its basically like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. This team won't be around, atleast not in FLA, unless it wins NOW.

 

So while its understandable to upset about overpaying (and theirs no denying we did) in the two deals this year, lets not lose sight of the real bigger picture. Because in the real big picture if we don't win this year, none of those prospects or anyone else will be playing baseball in South Florida by 2005.

 

Now is the time to rally around management and their commitment to making a legitimate effort at making baseball work here.

Well said. :thumbup

Hello? We traded a 20 year old prospect!! It's not like we just dealt Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth for Armando Almanza and a bag of balls here.

 

Anyway, this team is bent over next year, whether you trade for Conine or not. Unless Loria wins the Lotto or discovers 20 original Picassos in someone's attic this team is miserable again next year. So why not have at it and give it a go?

Agreed completely, but does having Conine instead of Banks, Hollandsworth, etc. make us so much more of a winner right now? Sure, hes a good hitter, but how much better does he make this team really?

Hoolandsworth already proved he wasn't good enough, and that was when the offense was producing, what makes you think he's that great of an option now?

 

Same with Banks... If he's such a viable option, then why wasn't he out there instead of a .250 hitting 20 year old rookie in June?

Alot of times, perception is reality. You have no idea what this will do for team morale.

 

The bottom line is this. If your really serious about seeing baseball survive in South Florida, you have to like this trade. If you want to be Baseball Tonight Chic and rip the front office for overpaying, thats your choice. What we saw tonight was bold leadership translated into action. We're not standing around hoping and praying we fall into the playoffs, we're actively chasing the dream.

Long time lurker chiming in again. I put these remarks up in another thread, but I think its paramount that everyone look at the most recent move from this prospective so I started a seperate thread, moderators can handle as they see fit...

 

In case some of you are having trouble reading the writing on the wall with the prospects we've given up in the Urbina and Conine deals, UNLESS WE WIN NOW THIS TEAM WON'T BE IN FLA BY THE TIME THOSE GUYS ARE READY. Some of you are speaking like baseball in South Florida in 2005 and beyond is a certainty. Thats certainly not the case, at this point I'd say the smart money is on relocation at the very least, contraction continues to loom as well.

 

Basically what your seeing here is an organization that understands that the future of baseball in South Florida is playing out right now. The window of opportunity for saving baseball in South Florida is closing. A playoff run would go along way towards cementing a stadium deal and with it the Marlins future. This is the critical moment in franchise history.

 

In other words, if we just sat on our hands and stockpiled prospects for 2005 its basically like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. This team won't be around, atleast not in FLA, unless it wins NOW.

 

So while its understandable to upset about overpaying (and theirs no denying we did) in the two deals this year, lets not lose sight of the real bigger picture. Because in the real big picture if we don't win this year, none of those prospects or anyone else will be playing baseball in South Florida by 2005.

 

Now is the time to rally around management and their commitment to making a legitimate effort at making baseball work here.

Thank you. At last we have someone speaking with the voice of reason and logic about this topic, and not another HATER who values a stupid prospect more than the future of this team and the opportunity to be respected again. Please, post more often, we need you... :thumbup

Im not saying Conine isnt an improvement, of course he is, but all Im saying is that the difference between a .300 average and .250 average over a month is 5 hits. I keep hearing people say I want to win now, and so do I, but Im just not sold how much more of a winner this makes us right now, not even considering how the prospects will turn out.

Alot of times, perception is reality. You have no idea what this will do for team morale.

 

The bottom line is this. If your really serious about seeing baseball survive in South Florida, you have to like this trade. If you want to be Baseball Tonight Chic and rip the front office for overpaying, thats your choice. What we saw tonight was bold leadership translated into action. We're not standing around hoping and praying we fall into the playoffs, we're actively chasing the dream.

I agree for the most part, but lets' not get carried away here. This is the same FO that is going to be responsible for the AAA club you'll see next year at the PPS.

 

I think I heard someone humming the star-spangled banner in the background as I read your post.

who is to say the front office is not serious about putting a consistent winner on the field year in and year out?

 

 

prospects can only get you so far.

prospects can only get you so far.

 

Jeff Conine can only get you so far.

Im not saying Conine isnt an improvement, of course he is, but all Im saying is that the difference between a .300 average and .250 average over a month is 5 hits. I keep hearing people say I want to win now, and so do I, but Im just not sold how much more of a winner this makes us right now, not even considering how the prospects will turn out.

Marlins down by 2, 2 outs, bottom of the 9th, bases loaded.

 

Who do you want up, Brian Banks or Jeff Conine?

 

I'll take Conine any day of the week.

 

And that's enough for me.

 

Plus, this just puts more steam behind an already confident bunch.

You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think acquiring anyone else could have done any better for this team.

 

In 2000 when the Fish acquired HRod at the deadline (and he did nothing for us) they went 28-28 the acquisition. I mean, it may have had an impact on the team that eventually finished 3 games under. How?

 

The players play off the fans. It's been said a trillion times. Yes, it's a catch-22, that the players play better when there are fans there but fans only come out when the players are playing well. When Henry Rodriguez comes into town, it's a player people have heard of. No one was thinking wild card in 2000, we were just too much out of it, but I'd be willing to bet that attendance went up those last two months, and consequently, play went up too, even if it was just a little. A team that had gone 51-54, 3 games under, went 28-28 the rest of the way and played .500 ball. Playing three games better now, in this tight race, could win it for us. And something tells me Conine will be much better than HRod every was. On top of that, Conine will bring more fans out than Oh-Henry.

 

As with the Urbina trade, I was a bit disappointed when I saw who we gave up. But look...we're stacked at pitcher. We've got starters up the kazootie, and Bautista (28-20, 3.54 ERA in his career) is not going to make that big of an impact.

 

And you can always look at it this way...

 

Cliff Floyd -----> Mike Mordecai, Carl Pavano, Graeme Lloyd, Justin Wayne, Don Levinski

 

Don Levinski ----> Jeff Conine

 

Essentially, for Floyd and Levinski, you've gotten Mordy (who's already won 2 games for us this year), Pavano (the best 5th starter in the league), Lloyd, Wayne (yet another pitching prospect) and now Conine. Looks like a decent deal to me.

finally sum ppl are speakin positive about the trade I hate seeing all this negative nellies. nicely said nc marlins. someone who knows what reality and the situation is and isnt living in a dream world. good point kotsay also.

I love this trade, it sends the message, that management wants to win it all now! I love it, this ownership is better than the 1997 ownership.

 

Mr. Marlin, all clear for a Pro Player Stadium arrival.

Long time lurker chiming in again. I put these remarks up in another thread, but I think its paramount that everyone look at the most recent move from this prospective so I started a seperate thread, moderators can handle as they see fit...

 

In case some of you are having trouble reading the writing on the wall with the prospects we've given up in the Urbina and Conine deals, UNLESS WE WIN NOW THIS TEAM WON'T BE IN FLA BY THE TIME THOSE GUYS ARE READY. Some of you are speaking like baseball in South Florida in 2005 and beyond is a certainty. Thats certainly not the case, at this point I'd say the smart money is on relocation at the very least, contraction continues to loom as well.

 

Basically what your seeing here is an organization that understands that the future of baseball in South Florida is playing out right now. The window of opportunity for saving baseball in South Florida is closing. A playoff run would go along way towards cementing a stadium deal and with it the Marlins future. This is the critical moment in franchise history.

 

In other words, if we just sat on our hands and stockpiled prospects for 2005 its basically like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. This team won't be around, atleast not in FLA, unless it wins NOW.

 

So while its understandable to upset about overpaying (and theirs no denying we did) in the two deals this year, lets not lose sight of the real bigger picture. Because in the real big picture if we don't win this year, none of those prospects or anyone else will be playing baseball in South Florida by 2005.

 

Now is the time to rally around management and their commitment to making a legitimate effort at making baseball work here.

That's a great point. I never really thought about it like that.

I guess I might be repeating some board sentiments here, but here is how I look at this deal:

 

Vets > Prospects- This is a rule of thumb I have. Vets guarantee talent now, prospects guarantee nothing.

Conine will bring in even more fans- Who is the most memorable Marlin from the "Golden Years" (93-97)? I bet somewhere in the nieghborhood of 5 out of 7 or 6 out of 7 say Jeff Conine. Fans see he is back, and they'll want to go to maybe get a little bit nostalgic.

He could be the piece that puts us over- I've been calling Cabs Superman for a while because slump or not, he's still sick in the clutch. Jeff is also very, very good in the clutch. And when Mikey comes back Jeff and Miguel can either platoon in left or Jeff goes to the bench and becomes easily our best bench bat.

 

I'll also bring in something people were using to rationalize Lenny Harris playing for us (which has turned out pretty well so far I'd say); Conine is going to teach these guys how to hit better. And its not a maybe thing this time, he will give good pointers. Maybe Derek Lee starts hitting when it counts. Maybe Juan can get that average up a little bit higher. He'll have an effect on not only the fans, not only our record, but the clubhouse. He's the proven leader. He's got the experience of a playoff push. He's the Darren Daulton of 2003, except we'll have him around for a couple more years as well.

I wouldnt have had a problem with this trade if it happened near the beginning of the season and Lowell was out for the year. But Conine isnt going to make much of a freaking difference over TH/Banks for this small amount of ABs. Especially for what we gave up. Our best impact player right now is a 24yr old pitcher in doubleA who is having a miracle comeback year. BAD TRADE unless Conine hits .330 with 10 jacks.

I guess I might be repeating some board sentiments here, but here is how I look at this deal:

 

Vets > Prospects- This is a rule of thumb I have. Vets guarantee talent now, prospects guarantee nothing.

Conine will bring in even more fans- Who is the most memorable Marlin from the "Golden Years" (93-97)? I bet somewhere in the nieghborhood of 5 out of 7 or 6 out of 7 say Jeff Conine. Fans see he is back, and they'll want to go to maybe get a little bit nostalgic.

He could be the piece that puts us over- I've been calling Cabs Superman for a while because slump or not, he's still sick in the clutch. Jeff is also very, very good in the clutch. And when Mikey comes back Jeff and Miguel can either platoon in left or Jeff goes to the bench and becomes easily our best bench bat.

 

I'll also bring in something people were using to rationalize Lenny Harris playing for us (which has turned out pretty well so far I'd say); Conine is going to teach these guys how to hit better. And its not a maybe thing this time, he will give good pointers. Maybe Derek Lee starts hitting when it counts. Maybe Juan can get that average up a little bit higher. He'll have an effect on not only the fans, not only our record, but the clubhouse. He's the proven leader. He's got the experience of a playoff push. He's the Darren Daulton of 2003, except we'll have him around for a couple more years as well.

So now that we have Conine are you going to attribute any hitting streak to his teaching skills? UGH! He cant possibly be the piece that puts us over the top because hes only trying to replace a piece that had more then twice his value. Vets also cost a hell of a lot more Juanky and that is something our club does not have. FF has already said correctly that this off-season will be hectic and its likely we suck next season. Now we are saddled with an additional contract. blah. :plain

I guess I might be repeating some board sentiments here, but here is how I look at this deal:

 

Vets > Prospects- This is a rule of thumb I have. Vets guarantee talent now, prospects guarantee nothing.

Conine will bring in even more fans- Who is the most memorable Marlin from the "Golden Years" (93-97)? I bet somewhere in the nieghborhood of 5 out of 7 or 6 out of 7 say Jeff Conine. Fans see he is back, and they'll want to go to maybe get a little bit nostalgic.

He could be the piece that puts us over- I've been calling Cabs Superman for a while because slump or not, he's still sick in the clutch. Jeff is also very, very good in the clutch. And when Mikey comes back Jeff and Miguel can either platoon in left or Jeff goes to the bench and becomes easily our best bench bat.

 

I'll also bring in something people were using to rationalize Lenny Harris playing for us (which has turned out pretty well so far I'd say); Conine is going to teach these guys how to hit better. And its not a maybe thing this time, he will give good pointers. Maybe Derek Lee starts hitting when it counts. Maybe Juan can get that average up a little bit higher. He'll have an effect on not only the fans, not only our record, but the clubhouse. He's the proven leader. He's got the experience of a playoff push. He's the Darren Daulton of 2003, except we'll have him around for a couple more years as well.

So now that we have Conine are you going to attribute any hitting streak to his teaching skills? UGH! He cant possibly be the piece that puts us over the top because hes only trying to replace a piece that had more then twice his value. Vets also cost a hell of a lot more Juanky and that is something our club does not have. FF has already said correctly that this off-season will be hectic and its likely we suck next season. Now we are saddled with an additional contract. blah. :plain Vets cost two prospects or more because you don't know with prospects. Vets are already producing, and will continue producing.

 

I know its mean and all, but I hope we win the World Series and all these prospects choke. I'll make sure to remind you of what you people thought about both those deals.

I agree for the most part, but lets' not get carried away here. This is the same FO that is going to be responsible for the AAA club you'll see next year at the PPS.

 

Thats what they said about this year. Let the front office have its say before you give up on next year. We have alot of "payroll flexability" and the free agent market will continue to be price conscious this year, so we're going to have a chance to replace most of the pieces we'll part with.

 

Some of you people amaze me. You'd think that you'd embrace a front office that serious about winning now, thats serious about keeping baseball in South Florida. Instead, alot of you seem like you'd rather the team just stand pat and hope we make the playoffs.

 

For those of you saying Conine over Banks make no difference for these last few weeks, you're just flat out wrong. All the numbers say otherwise, not to mention the intangibles his presence will bring to the team (leadership, confidence, etc.).

"Well I'm not opposed to seeing Jeff go. As great a guy as he is and as good of an influence he is on the young guys, I understand the need to get younger and cheaper.

 

But for two class A pitching prospects?

 

He's worth more than that, especially going to a team that needs him to contend.

 

However this does free up cash for Vlad Guerrero"

 

 

This is what a forum member of the orioles message board said.

 

They Think THEY got ripped LOL...so you see, maybe it was not such a bad deal after all. What is the % of Pitching Prospects that have been amazing and have been amazing in the majors for 5 or more years ? I bet only less than 50% have turned out to be that good

Vets cost two prospects or more because you don't know with prospects. Vets are already producing, and will continue producing.

 

I know its mean and all, but I hope we win the World Series and all these prospects choke. I'll make sure to remind you of what you people thought about both those deals.

Conine could choke, as well. I just dont understand how Conine will be much of an upgrade as opposed to playing Hworth/Banks.

I just dont understand how Conine will be much of an upgrade as opposed to playing Hworth/Banks.

Are you kidding me? You people have no memory at all. We got barely any production out of LF for the first 3 months. :banghead

I am going to join the "plus" side of this argument.

 

I think it's great they got Conine. Yes, just like in the Urbina deal, they overpaid. I would rather have seen Levinski and a couple other mid-level guys go. I will be sorry not to see what Bautista develops into in a few years.

 

But as many others have said, two or three years is a long time away to start worrying about. If they can get Beckett and Penny locked up for a while & AJ comes back, you've still got 4 good starters around for as long as you want to pay them. & that's not including Pavano.

 

Personally I like being in the position where we can overpay to help the present team.

 

Is there a cooler scenario than Mr. Marlin coming back to help pull the team through in a playoff stretch when their team leader just went down? I hope Conine's still got some magic left in him. I agree that there were better guys out there. Beinfest probably had a little marketing buzz in his ear when he thought of the deal, not to mention thinking about next year and a possible replacement for Lee.

 

I'm okay with the move.