Marlins building pennant contender

posted: Saturday, April 15, 2006

 

Jeffrey Loria is not selling the Florida Marlins and has no intention of putting them up for contraction. He won a World Series in 2003 and three years in a row put a team on the field that legitimately competed for the playoffs while doing business in JoePro Stadium.

 

When he had lost enough money waiting for a ballpark, he explained to fans what he was going to do: break up the 2003-05 team and start all over again, in a more reasoned manner than Wayne Huizenga, who cycloned the 1997 world champions less than a week after they beat the Indians. GM Admin Beinfest made one deal after another for pitching and young players, paring payroll down to $15 million while he tries to threaten enough moves to find some acceptable financing plan in South Florida.

 

Oh yes, and he's not giving Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera away. "I heard all this stuff this week, so I called them," said one GM Thursday. "I got an abrupt 'no.'" Beinfest, who recently signed a three-year extension, and assistant GM Mike Hill, who declined an opportunity to be interviewed for his hometown Cincinnati GM job, have not placed one outgoing call to discuss trading their two stars. "Why would they?" asked Mets GM Omar Minaya . "I'm telling you, they've got a lot of talent there. They are going to get good again in a hurry."

 

Compare the Marlins and their future to some of the other second-divison teams. Kansas City at $41M? No comparison. Even though Tampa Bay has some extraordinary positional talent, its previous administration busted on pitching. Beinfest's point is "that there is no real difference between losing 95 and 105 games," so why tie up Reggie Sanders, Mark Grudzielanek and Doug Mientkiewicz and still lose 95-110 games instead of developing young players? What the Marlins are doing is what the Indians did, the model of Gene Orza 's model when he opposed a floor to spending because he appreciated that sometimes small-market teams need to take payroll to the bottom to build back for a run at the top.

 

Beinfest said from the beginning, "the fastest way back is with young pitching." With 24-year old Dontrelle Willis, they have have as many as a dozen prime arms. And that doesn't include what they consider to be an extraordinary 2005 pitching draft, starting with Chris Volstad, Aaron Thompson, Ryan Tucker, et al.

 

Jason Vargas and Scott Olsen are already in the rotation. Ricky Nolasco, the prize in the Juan Pierre deal, and Josh Johnson are preparing for the rotation by working out of the bullpen, with eyes on becoming starters in July. Carlos Martinez is a third flamethrower developing in the 'pen; Martinez, Johnson and Nolasco had 17 strikeouts in their first 11 2/3 innings. Yusmeiro Petit threw a shutout Thursday. Anibal Sanchez is up to 94-95 mph in Double-A. "The arms they unveiled this spring were really good, the best," says one AL GM.

 

The Marlins think they are halfway to a pennant-contending team in the field. Cabrera, turning 23, is a potential Hall of Famer. They believe shortstop Hanley Ramirez, 22, is a potential superstar, as is right fielder Jeremy Hermida, who's also 22. Left fielder Josh Willingham can hit. Period. Minaya maintains first baseman Mike Jacobs "will hit 20 or 25 homers." The fact that Ramirez and Willingham are off to good starts ( 1.102 and 1.105 OPS, respectively) has helped assuage the fan base that understands the theory of what's happening.

 

When Beinfest and manager Joe Girardi have figured out who are keepers, they will trade pitching for positional players. For now, they won't deal pitching unless they get potential stars, which is why they backed off the Tampa Bay deal for Joey Gathright.

 

They now are at the point where they do not need to move salary. "We have to be very sensitive to the fans we have here," says one Marlin official. "If we get a park or move, we need attractions."

 

Now, if they believe that Nolasco, Johnson and others can form the core of a rotation similar to that of Willis, Josh Beckett, A.J. Burnett and Brad Penny, they might explore a Willis deal in July, or over the winter. They do not need cash, so any deal would have to include two prime positional prospects: center field, catcher, a major bat -- and a top pitching prospect. Only the Dodgers and Angels would seem to be in a position to even discuss that kind of a trade.

 

The Beckett deal was different, because they needed to unload $18M in Mike Lowell. But they still got two of Boston's six best prospects in Ramirez and Sanchez. Willis would only be moved if the deal completed most of the remaining parts of the 2008 puzzle.

 

There is no need to move payroll now. Revenue-sharing will take care of any paper losses.

 

"We're fine here," says Beinfest. "We knew exactly what had to be done, we're doing it and we're very enthusiastic about what we're doing. Don't worry about us."

Peter Gammons :thumbup :thumbup Even though I dont like the D-Train trade idea... :plain

"Why would they?" asked Mets GM Omar Minaya. "I'm telling you, they've got a lot of talent there. They are going to get good again in a hurry."

 

For those of you who wanted some notoriety of the talent level of this team.

 

Gammons still talkes about a WIllis trade in the future (2008 season). But it's good to see the media finally giving the fish some respect even though almost their entire roster is filled with AAA studs.

It's true that we're all pissed about what happened in the offseason. Sure, we'd love to have Beckett, Delgado, LoDuca, Pierre, AJ, Jones, Lowell, Castillo in our team...but at the same time, we need to recognize that management needs to make money, and without a stadium, they aren't getting what they need to profitably operate this franchise. I'm just hoping that we get a stadium deal done, period...because, just as in 1998, we're right there with anyone talent wise..in a couple of years at least.

The real question is, as in 98, are the fans ready to wait another 3-5 years for a contender considering what they have seen what happens when the Marlins contend (ie: firesale) and that the Marlins will be in DS for another 5 years?

Peter Gammons :thumbup :thumbup Even though I dont like the D-Train trade idea... :plain

 

 

same here, Gammons always know what he is saying and most of the time he is right. its good to be compared to the Indians, and like Minaya said we will get good in a hurry. too much talent floating around

I think the Marlins did a good job considering the situation. However, I still think we are missing that one big piece in terms of pitching: we don't have a big power right arm. Perhaps they thought Allison could be that guy.

 

We had two (Burnett and Beckett) power arms and did not get fair value for either. We got nothing for Burnett and were forced to trade Beckett just to get rid of Lowell.

 

It's lowell that really set this franchise back. Not only did he cost us the playoffs in 2005, but forced us to lose Beckett. I honestly don't believe that the Marlins planned on trading Beckett. If we were able to keep Beckett, I think this team is 1.5 to 2 years away from seriously competing. Beckett, Willis, Olsen, Vargas, and (Johnson, Volstad, Nolasco, etc).

 

Maybe we will be able to do what we did in 1998: have an awful year and then take that power pitcher with the first or second pick in the amateur draft.

The marlins have talent but the question is can they afford to keep the talent together , and if they arent in florida i really dont care about loria's team talent or not

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

If the stadium deal gets done, it'll be this year..

 

Will our payroll even be close to 90 million? Even fully loaded with a couple of marquee FAs, I doubt it would get above 40-50.

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

 

The only reason why I would see the fan base explode is because the franchise would have existed for some more time, and that is why fan bases grow. If ppl are not going to go to the games because we are not winning the pennant or the world series, then we will have a problem. A fan base like the ones in Boston, or Chicago, those need more than a new stadium, a good team, and a 90 million payroll to be built up. Now, that being said, it would be a big step forward towards building the fan base I'm sure.

I have officially lost most respect for Gammons. He's being delusional.

I have officially lost most respect for Gammons. He's being delusional.

 

Funny, he said the same thing about you.

I have officially lost most respect for Gammons. He's being delusional.

 

care to explain?

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

If the stadium deal gets done, it'll be this year..

 

Will our payroll even be close to 90 million? Even fully loaded with a couple of marquee FAs, I doubt it would get above 40-50.

A stadium deal is not getting done anywhere this year. And on another tolpc, Dontrelle and Cabrera are not getting traded this year. Take both of those to the bank.

I have officially lost most respect for Gammons. He's being delusional.

 

Funny, he said the same thing about you.

 

ZING!

The only reason why I would see the fan base explode is because the franchise would have existed for some more time, and that is why fan bases grow. If ppl are not going to go to the games because we are not winning the pennant or the world series, then we will have a problem. A fan base like the ones in Boston, or Chicago, those need more than a new stadium, a good team, and a 90 million payroll to be built up. Now, that being said, it would be a big step forward towards building the fan base I'm sure.

 

 

I agree that a team needs time to build a fanbase. 13 years and 2 WS rings is a lot of time but not nearly enough to build a bosox, yanks, mets, or cards fanbase. But with 90mil to play with it and a stadium it will finally bring some certainty to this organization that it hasn't had since '93. That combined with playoff contention year after year will make the fan base explode relative to what it has been in its highest years.

 

The reason the teams I listed above have such a rabid fanbase is because they have been around before TV and before MLB was even organized. I know first hand that the Cardinals' radio broadcasts went as south as Arkansas and I believe were the western most team for a while. So right there you have a fanbase that spans multiple states. People will travel 4 hours (like I am going to do at least 3 times this season) just to go to a Cards game. The other teams are old and play in the largest cities in the US. No team in MLB can compete with those teams when it comes to fanbase.

 

 

A stadium deal is not getting done anywhere this year. And on another tolpc, Dontrelle and Cabrera are not getting traded this year. Take both of those to the bank.

 

 

CapeFish, where are you to crucify?

It may all be true. Yet we are going to have to deal with growing pains as we have witnessed in nearly every game this year.

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

If the stadium deal gets done, it'll be this year..

 

Will our payroll even be close to 90 million? Even fully loaded with a couple of marquee FAs, I doubt it would get above 40-50.

A stadium deal is not getting done anywhere this year. And on another tolpc, Dontrelle and Cabrera are not getting traded this year. Take both of those to the bank.

boom!

Oh yes, and he's not giving Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera away. "I heard all this stuff this week, so I called them," said one GM Thursday. "I got an abrupt 'no.'" "I'm telling you, they've got a lot of talent there. They are going to get good again in a hurry."

 

Cabrera, turning 23, is a potential Hall of Famer.

 

:horse :jackson :woot

Oh yes, and he's not giving Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera away. "I heard all this stuff this week, so I called them," said one GM Thursday. "I got an abrupt 'no.'" "I'm telling you, they've got a lot of talent there. They are going to get good again in a hurry."

 

Cabrera, turning 23, is a potential Hall of Famer.

 

:horse :jackson :woot

 

Best emotion EVER

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

 

They spent record numbers last year (for the Marlins) and the fanbase didn't explode. It will never explode, it's just the way it is, there are too many transients from the North. There are many diehards such as many on this board, but not with the likes of teams that have been around for 50+ years. Your other comment about whether the fans are ready to wait another 3-5 years just doesn't make sense. I go to enjoy the games whether they are contending or not. Why worry whether or not the fans can wait, just support the team.

The only reason why I would see the fan base explode is because the franchise would have existed for some more time, and that is why fan bases grow. If ppl are not going to go to the games because we are not winning the pennant or the world series, then we will have a problem. A fan base like the ones in Boston, or Chicago, those need more than a new stadium, a good team, and a 90 million payroll to be built up. Now, that being said, it would be a big step forward towards building the fan base I'm sure.

 

 

I agree that a team needs time to build a fanbase. 13 years and 2 WS rings is a lot of time but not nearly enough to build a bosox, yanks, mets, or cards fanbase. But with 90mil to play with it and a stadium it will finally bring some certainty to this organization that it hasn't had since '93. That combined with playoff contention year after year will make the fan base explode relative to what it has been in its highest years.

 

The reason the teams I listed above have such a rabid fanbase is because they have been around before TV and before MLB was even organized. I know first hand that the Cardinals' radio broadcasts went as south as Arkansas and I believe were the western most team for a while. So right there you have a fanbase that spans multiple states. People will travel 4 hours (like I am going to do at least 3 times this season) just to go to a Cards game. The other teams are old and play in the largest cities in the US. No team in MLB can compete with those teams when it comes to fanbase.

 

 

A stadium deal is not getting done anywhere this year. And on another tolpc, Dontrelle and Cabrera are not getting traded this year. Take both of those to the bank.

 

 

CapeFish, where are you to crucify?

 

 

My family and I drive 4 hours several times a year to see the Marlisn play. There's just less of us than the Cards.

Forbes said last year when a stadium deal is complete the franchise could spend $30M more than it did last year, that would be a payroll in the $90-95M range.

 

 

 

If Forbes is right, we get that stadium, and Loria spends $90m on a payroll the South Florida baseball fanbase will explode. But there are a lot of if's there.

If the stadium deal gets done, it'll be this year..

 

Will our payroll even be close to 90 million? Even fully loaded with a couple of marquee FAs, I doubt it would get above 40-50.

 

dont forget miggy and d-train perhaps with long term deals

 

willis 3-4 years 8-9 million a year

cabrera 5-10 years 10+ million a year

 

that would jump the payroll alot

 

Bring in a marquee 2B, CF and bullpen